Muppet Treasure Island

[00:00:07] Speaker A: On this Patron bonus episode, we're talking about 1996 Muppet Treasure island, hello, patrons, and everybody else for this episode, because we knew ahead of time that we're releasing this one for everybody. But this is a little sneak peek into our Patron bonus episodes, which are structured a little bit differently. We don't. We just do them. [00:00:32] Speaker B: They don't really have a structure. [00:00:33] Speaker A: They don't really have a structure. We just take notes as we're watching the movie in the order that we watch, you know, in the order of the movie. And then we just kind of talk about them. We don't break it down, you know, into the segments or anything like that for these bonus episodes because usually we're not talking about movies that are based on books. [00:00:48] Speaker B: That is true. [00:00:48] Speaker A: Talking about whatever. But, yeah, they're more of just kind of loose discussions. Reviews of the. And really more of discussions than they are even reviews. Totally. But anyway, so we're talking about Muppet Treasure island, which was our runner up in the Treasure island poll. So, yeah, let's talk about it. [00:01:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Lost by one. One vote. [00:01:06] Speaker A: Lost by one vote. Which is why we're releasing it to everybody, so that people who were disappointed they didn't get to hear us talk about it, because it lost by one vote, will still get to hear us talk about it, just in slightly less depth maybe, than. [00:01:18] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, not. Just not the same format. [00:01:20] Speaker A: Not the same format, really. Yeah. [00:01:23] Speaker B: I. So I mentioned maybe in the prequel to the Treasure Planet episode that I was in, like, a children's production of Treasure island as a kid, and I posted some pictures that my mom found for me, and I did that through, like, a theater camp, like a day camp that I went to. [00:01:45] Speaker A: If you're hearing weird sounds, it's Grindelwald rubbing his face on the microphone. You probably won't hear that. [00:01:52] Speaker B: What a little baby. And I'm pretty sure that we watched this when I was, like, at that theater camp, but I remember nothing about it. [00:02:02] Speaker A: Yeah. I had never seen this. And I was realizing as we were getting into it that I. Hey, hey. Okay, you can't chew on that, you little shit. Stop. Stop. Okay, you gotta get down if you're gonna chew on the. Can't chew on microphone. [00:02:19] Speaker B: Come here, sit down. Thank you. [00:02:22] Speaker A: That's a good chaos picture of Grimby. It's like every quarter anyways really captures his soul. I was realizing as we were sitting down to watch this movie that I don't know if I had ever seen an entire Muppet movie other than the Muppet Christmas Carol. And I don't think I have. Unless. I don't know. I mean, unless you count something like Dark Crystal or something. You know what I mean? Like, if you count, like, a non. Muppet. Muppet Movie. [00:02:49] Speaker B: Right. [00:02:50] Speaker A: But I'm talking about, like, a movie with, like, the Muppets, Miss Piggy and, like. Yeah, Kermit and stuff like that. [00:02:56] Speaker B: I've seen the original Muppet movie, like, when I was a kid. [00:03:00] Speaker A: I don't know if I have. [00:03:01] Speaker B: And I also saw the first one from when they, like, tried to reboot the franchise that had, like, Amy Adams and the guy from How I Met yout Mother in it. [00:03:12] Speaker A: Jason. Whatever. [00:03:13] Speaker B: Yeah. What's his name? [00:03:14] Speaker A: Not Sudeikis, maybe. [00:03:16] Speaker B: Maybe. [00:03:17] Speaker A: No, that's a different one. I can always get them confused. Maybe. Whatever. Yeah. [00:03:20] Speaker B: Jason somebody. [00:03:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Siegel. No, I don't know. One of them. [00:03:24] Speaker B: I've seen those two Muppet movies. [00:03:28] Speaker A: Yeah. I have not. Yeah, I've not seen either of those. I genuinely think I'd only seen the Muppet Christmas Carol and that's it. Which is. Well, in my experience of watching 2 Now, still the best one. [00:03:38] Speaker B: Yes. [00:03:40] Speaker A: But when. So when this movie started playing, the opening credits started rolling, and one of the early credits popped up and it said, music composed by Hans Zimmer. [00:03:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:50] Speaker A: And we were both like, whoa. [00:03:51] Speaker B: We both wrote the same note. [00:03:53] Speaker A: We're like, all right, then. [00:03:54] Speaker B: Okay. Muppets pop off. Music by Hans Zimmer. [00:03:57] Speaker A: Was not expecting Hans Zimmer on this. And it's. Yeah, it's. It's a good score. It's fine. You know, it's very piratey, classic adventure score he does. You know, it's not. It's not. It doesn't hold a candle like Pirates of the Caribbean, but it's still. It's a good score. So we get into the movie, and it was one of those things that started. I don't know what prompted this note in my head, but I just wrote this down. I was like, you know, it's funny that the meme that you see online all the time is. Which movie would you do? Like, a Muppet movie where you. All of the characters are Muppets, except, like, one. [00:04:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:33] Speaker A: And the meme is like, okay, what movie are you making? A Muppet movie. And which character are you keeping? A human. And what human is playing that character, basically. [00:04:41] Speaker B: Right. [00:04:41] Speaker A: And we've talked, you know, like, there's people joking about, like, Knives out or whatever, but it's all Muppets and, like, Daniel Craig as. [00:04:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:49] Speaker A: Benoit Blanc or something like whatever, is also a Muppet. Yeah, exactly. But. And it's so funny because I was like, I think about that and I'm like, you know, why is that the way that meme is always formulated or that question? Because that's not how Muppet movies work. [00:05:03] Speaker B: No, not at all. [00:05:04] Speaker A: There are always quite a few human characters. [00:05:07] Speaker B: No, I think that every single time I see that meme pop up. And I think people get that impression because in A Muppet Christmas Carol, it is like mostly Sir Michael Caine interacting with Muppets, but there are a ton of other human actors in that movie. [00:05:23] Speaker A: Yeah, like quite a few. [00:05:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:25] Speaker A: I will say, though. So we're introduced, we get into the story and it sets up. And this was my first note, was like the opening of this seems much closer to the book, based on our discussion from the main episode where we get some time with Billy Bones hanging out at the inn or whatever, where Jim Hawkins works. And a little bit of the backstory, just more setup of that backstory here. But in this movie, Billy Bones is played by Billy Connolly, which I thought was an inspired choice. I think that's a great choice for Billy Bones and I think he does a fun job. But the thing that prompted my thought, like, oh, this is probably much closer to the book, is he does give the warning that you said, which is, beware the one legged man. He's the one to fear or whatever. And also him just drinking at the. [00:06:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Drinking at the end and hanging out and telling stories. And then he dies. [00:06:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Dies abruptly. Yeah. [00:06:22] Speaker B: Did you notice that Jim was wearing a single button apron like John Townsend? [00:06:27] Speaker A: Yes. I loved a little single button apron that you use. It just buttons onto your. Your under. Like you're not undershirt, but like your. [00:06:34] Speaker B: Your vest or whatever. [00:06:36] Speaker A: Coat or whatever. Like you use the button of your coat to hold your apron up, which I think is a very clever. [00:06:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:41] Speaker A: Design idea. But, yeah, for people who don't know, go check out the Townsend's YouTube channel. Big fans. Hey, Townsend. If anybody from the Townsends happens to be listening, we're going to. We're going to shoot our shot and say that we love your YouTube channel and we want to come visit and do a podcast episode with you. We. About any. We'll talk about Master and Commander Far side of the World or whatever. [00:07:04] Speaker B: Yeah, that would work. [00:07:05] Speaker A: Have John Townsend on this show. That would be incredible. One thing I noticed is that this movie actually makes Jim an orphan, which is not in the book. Right. Because his mom. [00:07:14] Speaker B: Yeah, his mom is alive in the book. And technically his dad's alive at the beginning of the book. [00:07:19] Speaker A: In this one they specifically mentioned that his mom is dead and that his dad. Similar to the treasure or treasure planet his dad left to go on a ship. But in this he's not like upset about it or anything. In this he's like wistful at the idea of like following in his dad's footsteps and like going on an adventure by like you know, going. Becoming a sailor or whatever. Like he seems very wistful at that idea of what is that. He doesn't seem to resent his dad at all for it. It's just like what he had to do, basically. Like. [00:07:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:50] Speaker A: You know what I mean? But he seemingly died in the intervening years his dad did. And so yeah, Jim is now an orphan who is like owned by this late. I don't know, it's like indentured servant. I don't know. I mean by the lady who runs the. Ms. Blubridge or whatever her name is, who runs this. This inn tavern or whatever. And I also, speaking of Jim, realized that I have not seen this actor in like anything else. And I glanced at his credits and he's been in other stuff, but this is like the biggest thing he's been for sure. [00:08:23] Speaker B: And I think the credits he got like an introduced. [00:08:27] Speaker A: Yeah. It was probably his first role or his first big role at least. Yeah. [00:08:31] Speaker B: So maybe they were expecting big things from him. [00:08:33] Speaker A: Yeah. I. I have a note about it. Well, we'll get to it. It's my. Literally my next note. So we'll get to it in a second. [00:08:39] Speaker B: Cuz my only note here in the middle is cheese. Mrs. Is it. Was it. [00:08:44] Speaker A: I don't remember how they pronounced Bl. [00:08:47] Speaker B: She has a dump truck. [00:08:49] Speaker A: Yeah. She has a gigantic bustle or whatever is. Yeah. I'm. You're. It's unsure how much of that's supposed to be her butt versus her dress. But. Yeah, like the. Yeah. But so speaking of Jim, I was gonna say I. I actually really quite liked the Something better than this song, which is kind of his I want song at the beginning here pretty much. I thought it was a pretty fun song, but. And so speaking of this actor who plays Jim, I think he does a pretty good job as an actor. I did not particularly like his singing voice. Yeah, it's a very like falsetto. [00:09:26] Speaker B: Yes. [00:09:26] Speaker A: Like everything's way up there. [00:09:29] Speaker B: They have him singing like way high up in his register. [00:09:33] Speaker A: Everything's like falsetto. It seems like even for like a 12 year old boy or whatever he is. I don't know. I'm not enough of a singing person to know like if he's like. It's like a soprano or something. I don't know. He is way up there like the whole time. But it's just a tone, a tonality that is not that I don't find particularly nice to listen to, I guess is my. As like a lead in your musical. You know what I mean? [00:09:59] Speaker B: I think that type of singing to me works better in a choir than. [00:10:06] Speaker A: It does for a part of the choir. As like a solo and as like the lead. Yeah. It's just. And it's almost everything he does is up there where it's like you just want more like variation and personality out of your lead. I don't know, it's just. Yeah, that was my only real complaint because I thought acting wise, he did fine. Like I thought he was a fine actor. And it's not even like he's bad at singing. It's just the arrangements for his voice. And maybe that was like how he sang best. [00:10:31] Speaker B: I don't know. Yeah, I mean, maybe that was just his range. [00:10:33] Speaker A: Yeah. It's just. It just was not something I particularly enjoy because it's just constantly way, way up there. Speaking of Ms. Blevridge though, or whatever his name, her name is, I was wondering if she was in the book in any way because she's playing the lady who runs the inn in this, which from my understanding in the book is just his mom is James Mom. [00:10:51] Speaker B: Correct. She's not in the book in any way. I feel like they just decided to do a kind of mean version of Mrs. Hawkins for this. Like, I felt like she's kind of giving like Ms. Hannigan from Annie a little bit. [00:11:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I did. I did like though that even her. I thought it was a nice little moment that. That she like seems to be kind of shitty and like. [00:11:12] Speaker B: Yeah, she feeds them table scraps. [00:11:15] Speaker A: Yeah, she feeds them table scraps. And she's very much like a. She's like, get to work and what's the word? I'm like, she's a very hard. [00:11:22] Speaker B: She's a hard fisted hand at the grindstone. [00:11:25] Speaker A: Exactly. But when the pirates show up and shit starts going down, she helps Jim escape. [00:11:31] Speaker B: Yes. [00:11:31] Speaker A: And fights off the pirates briefly so that he can escape. You know what I mean? I. I thought that was. And then she tells him to leave. Like when. Later, when she's like, go, get out of here. Like. So I thought that was a nice. That There was some. You know, there wasn't all just. She wasn't just completely like this comically, like, evil, like, hag character or something like that. She had some dimension to her a little bit. [00:11:52] Speaker B: Yeah. So after they leave the inn. So it's. It's Jim. The conceit is that Jim and Gonzo and Rizzo are all, like, orphans who work at the inn. And they get the map and they all escape together and they go into the city to try to set up this voyage to go get the treasure with the treasure map. And I would stake my entire life that those were the same sets from A Muppet Christmas Carol. [00:12:21] Speaker A: Bet they would almost have to be, right. [00:12:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:23] Speaker A: Because this only came out, like, two or three years after Muppet Christmas Carol. So. Yeah, I almost assuredly. Some of the same sets they were using. [00:12:33] Speaker B: So they meet up with Fozzie Bear, who's playing the squire. [00:12:39] Speaker A: Yeah, Squire Trelawney. [00:12:41] Speaker B: Trelawney, yeah, Squire Trelawney. [00:12:43] Speaker A: And the shipbuilder's son. [00:12:44] Speaker B: Yes, the shipbuilder's son. [00:12:46] Speaker A: The actual Squire Trelawney is out of town or something. [00:12:50] Speaker B: Correct. [00:12:50] Speaker A: But Squire Trelawney Jr. Is there, and. [00:12:54] Speaker B: He is a simpleton. Yes, we're told. And I thought the joke where he thinks there's a tiny person living in his finger was weird. [00:13:05] Speaker A: This is where a moment where I wasn't sure, because I know so little about the Muppets as characters, because I've never watched, I was like, is this a thing Fozzie does? Is this like a Fozzie Bear bit? [00:13:18] Speaker B: I could not say. I've never heard of it. If it is. [00:13:22] Speaker A: I thought maybe it was. That was. My assumption, was that this was just, like, a bit Fozzie Bear does. [00:13:27] Speaker B: Like, maybe something from the T or. [00:13:29] Speaker A: Whatever that just often shows up and it's like, a thing he often does. [00:13:33] Speaker B: If you are better versed in Muppet lore than we are, let us know. Is this a running bit or some kind of reference to something that we're. Because I just thought it was weird. [00:13:44] Speaker A: Doesn't seem like a reference to anything in the book, then, I assume. No, like. Or I don't know what it would be, but, you know, like. Yeah, okay, so they get that. Or they meet Fozzie, who is, again, the Squire Trelawney. So they're able to find a ship to go on their treasure hunt. They get to the ship, and we see the ship mostly staffed. Not staffed, but stationed by Muppets. And I thought a very fun detail was because, you know, Statler And Waldorf have to show up and everything in some capacity. And so they make them the figureheads on the ship. Which I thought was very clever and a lot of fun because they get to quip from the front of the ship every now and then. Which I thought was great. [00:14:27] Speaker B: So we, then we get onto the ship and we meet Long John Silver, played to perfection by Tim Curry, of course. [00:14:37] Speaker A: He is fantastic. [00:14:38] Speaker B: And I thought like a little detail in that scene where they meet him that I thought was really fun was the use of the Dutch door. [00:14:47] Speaker A: Yes. [00:14:48] Speaker B: To reveal his missing leg. Cause he's like sitting on this ledge when they first meet him. Like a counter. And we can't see the bottom half of his body. Yeah. [00:14:58] Speaker A: Specifically his right leg at all. Because he's sitting with his left side to the camera. Yeah. [00:15:02] Speaker B: And he like gets up and he swings the little door open to reveal that he's missing one of his legs. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. [00:15:09] Speaker A: Because we did get the warning earlier. [00:15:10] Speaker B: From Billy to wear the One legged man. [00:15:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:14] Speaker B: And then we meet the rest of the crew. The rest of the crew. And Kermit the Frog plays the captain. Captain Smollett. And Mr. Arrow is played by Sam Eagle. And I thought it was really interesting that both adaptations that we've watched now reimagined Mr. Arrow as like this really responsible, like serious upstanding kind of guy. [00:15:44] Speaker A: Because Treasure Planet does the same thing. That was my note. Cause my note was Sam Eagle as the no nonsense first mate. Mr. Arrow is an incredible choice. [00:15:53] Speaker B: Yeah, it's an incredible inspired choice. [00:15:55] Speaker A: But I assume. Assumed that was because it was. And I guess I don't. I guess I don't remember how much we talked about this in the episode, but I guess I assumed that that was inspired by his character in the book. [00:16:05] Speaker B: No, his character is really the opposite of that in the book. Like, he's depicted as like this old drunk who doesn't know how to do his job. And I think that makes sense. Though I would be interested to know where that reinterpretation of his character started. But I do think that it makes sense because the idea in the book, I think, is that Silver. Because it's kind of implied that Silver gets rid of Mr. Arrow. Like he goes overboard at some point. But like, maybe Long John Silver did it or maybe he didn't. And I think the idea is supposed to be that Silver would want to get rid of Mr. Arrow so that then he could be the first mate. But then he doesn't get named first mate after Mr. Arrow goes missing. Yeah, yeah. In the book. So it's kind of moot. So I think that reimagining that whole dynamic as Silver wanting to get rid of someone who is both competent and loyal to the captain works really well. [00:17:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it makes perfect sense because most of the crew is, or a lot of the crew are these pirates or whatever. [00:17:15] Speaker B: Yeah, they're Silver's men. [00:17:16] Speaker A: Silver's men. And so this one guy who's. Yeah, the first mate, having him be. And it's also just a pretty standard. That's a pretty typical actually classic pirate and just naval thing in general is that often the first mate is as competent, if not more competent than the captain is. Like because they're, they're usually seen as like a comparison would be like a, like a non commissioned officer. I think basically in the, in the military these are people, the first mate are usually people who were sailors who have moved up the ranks to become second in command basically. Whereas often the captains on ships and stuff like this from this time period are rich kids who were trained at some private academy to become a naval commander. [00:18:06] Speaker B: Right. [00:18:07] Speaker A: And so don't have. Often don't have the same sort of world weariness and wisdom that the first, the first mate does. And so yeah, it's a pretty standard thing for the first officer to be or the first mate or whatever to be like a very competent, gruff, no nonsense kind of. They're also the person who does like the discipline and stuff like keeps everybody in line. The captain doesn't, you know, have to deal with that. He lets the first mate handle all that or whatever. So anyways, I think it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I thought, and I thought Sam Eagle was like they had the perfect Muppet ready for that, ready to go. [00:18:43] Speaker B: A random line that made me laugh when Jim goes off to help Silver and he doesn't invite Gonzo and Rizzo with him and I think Rizzo says like, oh well, I guess the human beings want to hang out together. [00:19:01] Speaker A: It's good. It is always fun when they do that. Like meta kind of fourth wall breaking, which they do a ton of obviously. But yeah. So there's one really, really good moment and I'll get to this later about what I didn't think worked as great in this movie at the end kind of. But one moment early that kind of goes counter to my point later that I'm going to get to is that there's this moment where Silver is talking to Jim and Jim shows him his compass that he has, which is his dad's. And Silver grabs it and kind of jokingly threatens to throw it overboard because he's like, oh, what would you. How would you navigate without your compass? Or whatever. [00:19:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:42] Speaker A: And Jim, like, freaks out and is like, no, no, no, that's my dad's. And I thought that whole scene was acted really well by both of them. Like, Jim does a. Really. Has a really genuine reaction in that moment. And then Tim Curry, the look on his face, the way he responds to that, I thought was very genuinely affecting. And I thought, like. And I think my complaint is that it's the only scene that does that in the movie of working on their relationship, really, and showcasing that there is this more of a connection there. It's a great moment. I just felt like we needed maybe one or two more of those before the end of the movie. Whereas that movie has to. Or that scene has to do all of the heavy lifting for almost all of the heavy lifting for later for the end of the movie. Basically. [00:20:35] Speaker B: One thing in that scene, though, and I maybe need somebody who has watched this movie a bunch to tell me. [00:20:43] Speaker A: I think I could tell you. [00:20:45] Speaker B: Maybe you can tell me. I think at some point Silver tells Jim that he's smart as something. And it sounded to me like he said, smart as paint. [00:20:56] Speaker A: I think that is what he says. [00:20:58] Speaker B: And I think, what does that mean? [00:20:59] Speaker A: I think the idea is he's using smart, not in the brain sense, but in the smart, as in, like, well, put together, like. Like a smart. That's a smart coat of paint on that car. That's a smart. You know what I'm talking about? Like. [00:21:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I know what. What definition of smart you're referring to. [00:21:18] Speaker A: So I think it's that, like, smart as paint being like, oh, you put a brand new fresh coat of paint on something, it looks nice. It looks really smart. I think he's saying, you're smart as paint. I think that might be what he's made. That would be my interpretation. Assuming it is paint is what he says there. But we get quite a few wide shots of the. The pirate ship sailing on the ocean. [00:21:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:43] Speaker A: And they're all gorgeous and look incredible. And I. I don't know how they did it. And I'm. I was gonna look it up, and I didn't get a chance to because I just forgot. And if anybody knows, I will look it up after this. But if anybody knows, are those miniatures. Is it. And it doesn't look like a real ship to me. Like, I don't think they're filming an actual sized ship on the ocean or anything like that, I don't think. But it also doesn't really look like a miniature to me. The way the wind is, like, the air appears to be moving the sails and stuff. Look, you can usually tell in miniature when it. I don't know. But it also is not animated or anything. I don't know how they did it. And I'm just very curious to know how they did all of those wide shots of the ship sailing on the ocean at, like, sunset and sunrise in the middle of the night. Some of them were definitely miniatures at times, but some of them. It just really didn't look like miniatures to me. And I would be fascinated to find out how they did that. [00:22:45] Speaker B: This movie has, like, gonzo kink in it. [00:22:48] Speaker A: Does it? [00:22:49] Speaker B: Yeah. When they put him on the rack. [00:22:51] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:22:53] Speaker B: And he's, like, really annoying. [00:22:55] Speaker A: Okay. You can interpret it that way. You could also interpret it as he, you know, like, stretching his back, like. Oh, that's like going to a chiropractor. Don't go to a chiropractor. [00:23:05] Speaker B: But. But also, I think going to a. [00:23:06] Speaker A: Physical therapist or whatever, I. I think. [00:23:09] Speaker B: There being like a. Like a wink, wink thing with Gonzo with that. [00:23:13] Speaker A: Yes. Like, running 100. [00:23:15] Speaker B: Muppet joke. [00:23:16] Speaker A: It's 100. A double. But yeah, I think. Yeah, for sure. I wanted to know if one of the things that happens briefly in this movie, I think, just so it can spur a musical number, is that they get becalmed. [00:23:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:28] Speaker A: And I wanted to know if that happened in the book because it doesn't happen in Treasure Planet, which wouldn't. It wouldn't really make sense in Treasure Planet because it's like, running on its own power. But I wanted to know if they got becalmed in the book because that's a pretty classic pirate thing that shows up in a lot of pirate stories and stuff, and just naval stories in general. Any, like, age of Sale stories, obviously, because it was a real thing that happened and could happen. It was bad, but I wanted to know if that was a prominent part of. Or if it happened at all in Treasure island, because so many things come from Treasure Island. Is the idea of becoming. Did that become popular because of Treasure Island? [00:24:06] Speaker B: No, I. If that happened in the book, it was a blink and you miss it moment. Because I don't recall anything about becalming in the book. [00:24:16] Speaker A: Well, there you go. [00:24:17] Speaker B: Actually, most of the book takes place on the island, which isn't really the case with either adaptation. [00:24:23] Speaker A: Yeah. You spend most of the time prior. [00:24:25] Speaker B: To the island on the ship. [00:24:26] Speaker A: The island's usually like the third act, basically. Roughly. I mentioned it earlier, but the wide shots were really cool. Specific of the ship. There was another one specifically. And this one, I think did look like a miniature to me, is during this, the cabin fever number, which is because they get becalmed or whatever. They all start having cabin fever and there's a big crazy number, but it happens at night. And you get this. There's this one really cool wide shot where they pull back and there's like spotlights everywhere and, like fireworks going off. And I just thought it was super cool. That one looked like a miniature to me, but some of the other ones I was. It was harder to tell. [00:25:00] Speaker B: I really liked the. The sequence where Long John Silver tricks Mr. Arrow into taking a lifeboat out. I thought that was great. Yeah. You got to test the lights, make sure they're seaworthy, make sure they're all safe. And then it pays off in the. [00:25:14] Speaker A: End where the one that. That Long John Silver takes to escape is not seaworthy. Arrow shows up and is like, that ship's not seaworthy. [00:25:24] Speaker B: I also thought that Long John Silver kidnapping Jim when they go to the island was a good change because I talked about in the book how Jim just, like, bumble fucks his way around through bad decisions. [00:25:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:39] Speaker B: And I. I still think that it doesn't make any sense that he would just decide to go ashore with all. Because he already knows that they're pirates. And, like, I get. He's a kid. I get that. But it still seems like a really terrible decision, even for a dumb kid. [00:25:55] Speaker A: Yeah. I thought that scene worked fine except for the actual direction in that scene. It drove me crazy that they didn't have one of the, like, Long John Silver or one of the other pirates cover his mouth while they drug him after they drag him. [00:26:13] Speaker B: That's fair. Yeah. [00:26:14] Speaker A: Because they drag him onto the boat and we see them sailing away with him and he's just, like, wriggling, trying to fight, but he could just yell and he doesn't make any noise. And I'm like, why would you not just have somebody cover his mouth so he can't. You know what I mean? Like, it's a little thing, but it just drove me crazy. I'm like, it's such a simple detail. Okay. [00:26:36] Speaker B: And then we get another musical number, this time led by Tim Curry. [00:26:40] Speaker A: Yes. [00:26:41] Speaker B: And the professional pirate song I really like. [00:26:44] Speaker A: It's good. [00:26:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:46] Speaker A: Music's fine. None of it. Yeah, none of it's like, as good as the Muppet Christmas Carol. [00:26:50] Speaker B: No. [00:26:50] Speaker A: Different songwriters, too, from my understanding, but from what I think I was able to research. But the guy who wrote this wrote some other interesting stuff. Oh, he wrote. I think it's the guy who wrote Fievel Goes west or An American Tale or. He wrote one of the big songs from that. [00:27:04] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. No, I agree. I think, overall, the music was fine, but not as good. Not as memorable Christmas Carol. But I did. I did like the professional pirate song. I liked that it started out with Tim Curry being like, this is my only number. [00:27:18] Speaker A: My only number. [00:27:18] Speaker B: Let me have this. [00:27:19] Speaker A: I actually went and looked like, is it his only number? It is. Why would they only give him one number? [00:27:24] Speaker B: And I also think that it's a fair point that Flint's crew is the rightful owners of the buried treasure. [00:27:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:33] Speaker B: Like, I think that's a fair point. [00:27:34] Speaker A: Seems pretty. Pretty. Yeah. I mean, as. As. As reasonable acclaim as anybody could have. I mean, pretty much. I guess the Spanish. I guess Spain might. [00:27:46] Speaker B: That is. That is their treasure that they have rightfully stolen. [00:27:50] Speaker A: Yeah. I think Spain might disagree. But they stole it from a Spanish ship. Right. I think. [00:27:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:55] Speaker A: At least in Black Sails. I don't remember. Yeah. So we actually get to the island, and this is maybe the only thing that really aged poorly in the movie, is there are. Is a group of indigenous people. They're not people, they're Muppets. But they're. They are clearly, like, inspired by indigenous islanders. But they're also all pig people. [00:28:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:16] Speaker A: Like hogs. Like feral hog people. It's compl. It's. It's tough. It's an unfortunate sequence, shall we say? And Miss Piggy, we find out she is playing Ben Gunn, who is Benjamina Gunn. Benjamina Gunn, who is the robot in Treasure Planet that's on the island still, and is Ben Gunn. He's just a pirate in the movie or in the book who has been trapped, left on the island, but she has become, like, a God queen of these native people. But my question was, were there any indigenous people, like, mentioned to be on the island in the book? Because we didn't talk about that, and I assumed there wasn't. [00:28:55] Speaker B: But no, the island, as far as I know, is uninhabited. I don't think it's ever. Men. There are people there. Or were people there except for Ben Gunn. But I thought. I thought Miss Piggy as Ben Gunn was an interesting choice. [00:29:10] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. I mean, I wondered how they were gonna work her. [00:29:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Because there is literally only one Female character in the book, it's just Mrs. Hawkins and that's it. [00:29:19] Speaker A: It's not much of a part for her. No. [00:29:22] Speaker B: And Miss Piggy deserves a better part than to be Mrs. Hawkins. [00:29:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:28] Speaker B: So I, like. I guess this makes about as much. [00:29:31] Speaker A: Sense as, you know, it's a problematic nature of it aside, it is a kind of fun, clever way to work if you ignore all of the problematic elements of it. The fact that she's a pig and that there is a group of pig people on the island is like. And that she becomes like, their leader is like, okay, I can see what you're doing there, but you shouldn't do that. Like. Yeah, yeah, I think you could have. I mean, to be fair, you could have. I think you could have still done the same thing and just had her just not remove the indigenous people and just have her be Ben Gunn on the island and still have a pretty big role in the, like, third act of the movie. Yeah, it's not great. [00:30:24] Speaker B: I really liked that this adaptation included the crew being really superstitious because that was something from the book that was not in Treasure Planet that they were superstitious. And Long John Silver does not have any time or patience for the fact that they are superstitious. [00:30:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:45] Speaker B: I'm also wondering now if giving Silver more of a sincere soft spot for Jim is a really common thing for adaptations to do, because that wasn't really the vibe that I got from the book. [00:31:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:00] Speaker B: Was that, like. [00:31:01] Speaker A: I will say I got less of it in this movie than in Treasure Planet, which is my note at the end. But. [00:31:06] Speaker B: Yeah, but like, the vibe that I got in the book was that, like, Long John Silver likes Jim, but is ultimately, like, self serving and would not have helped Jim in that same scene. It, like, would not have helped him escape if it had not also been in his favor for Jim to escape. [00:31:26] Speaker A: When you say helped him escape, which scene? [00:31:29] Speaker B: When they go to find the treasure and then the treasure is no longer there. [00:31:33] Speaker A: Right. [00:31:33] Speaker B: And he says robbery. Yeah. Well, he lets. Yeah, he lets Jim get away in the book and then. Or in the movie and then the book. That's the moment when he, like, switches sides to be like, on Jim's side now. [00:31:46] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [00:31:48] Speaker B: Which he wouldn't have done if that had not served him. [00:31:51] Speaker A: Gotcha. [00:31:52] Speaker B: In that moment, is what I'm saying. [00:31:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And in this, it doesn't really serve anything because he's. He's. Yeah, he like, just fights all the pirates by himself, I guess, seemingly. So it doesn't really help for him to have Jim run. But. Yeah. [00:32:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Also, the. Them giving him the black spot that was written on the Bible page is something from the book as well. [00:32:12] Speaker A: Oh, well, one of my questions is after they find the treasure and then. Or they. They find the treasure chest, and then they realize it's all missing. They, like, all turn and, like, Silver, like, starts shooting his crew, like, attacking his crew. And I didn't remember talking about that in. I don't remember it in Treasure Planet. Maybe it was, but I don't remember talking about it in. [00:32:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:33] Speaker A: The book. [00:32:34] Speaker B: Well, yeah. [00:32:35] Speaker A: Where they all, like, in Treasure Planet. [00:32:37] Speaker B: They just find the treasure. [00:32:38] Speaker A: Right, True. [00:32:39] Speaker B: Yeah, they. They do turn on him. Yeah. Why? [00:32:43] Speaker A: I didn't get why in the. In. In this story. [00:32:47] Speaker B: So the pirates are portrayed as really, like, emotionally driven and, like, not particularly, like, intelligent, not educated. [00:33:00] Speaker A: Right. [00:33:01] Speaker B: So when they get there and the treasure that they've been seeking is not there, they just. They just blame it. Yeah. They have this immediate response of, like, blaming your fault. Yeah, it's your fault. You let us on this. Yeah. You let us hear. This is your fault there's no treasure. Blah, blah, blah. [00:33:18] Speaker A: I couldn't tell in the. In the movies just because it happened so quickly. And I might have been writing another note if they just, like. If there was some specific motivation of, like, they thought he had, like, duped them specific intentionally, or if they were just generally, like, mad at him for the situation. They were. I don't. I don't. Like, I couldn't figure out what was going on. So that makes sense. [00:33:38] Speaker B: We also get the scene of Jim and. And, well, and company in this taking back the ship. And I thought that the little bit where the. The Muppet pirate was knitting a Jolly Roger was really great. Yeah, I loved that. I also liked that this adaptation included scaring the pirates with a fake ghost. [00:34:01] Speaker A: Oh, is that a. [00:34:01] Speaker B: In this case, yes, it is. In the. In the movie's case, it was the ghost of Mr. Arrow. [00:34:06] Speaker A: Yeah. He survived. [00:34:07] Speaker B: Yeah. So he survived. In the book, they fake the ghost of Ben Gunn to scare the pirates. [00:34:14] Speaker A: Oh, that makes sense. Cause he's alive still. [00:34:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:17] Speaker A: Right. Kermit and Miss Piggy get captured by the pirates. I don't remember how that all goes down, but they end up getting captured at some point. [00:34:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:24] Speaker A: By the pirates. And so they hang them off of a cliff by their ankles. Well, because they have an interaction with Long John Silver, and it becomes clear, like, that Miss Piggy knows him and has dated him maybe previously. [00:34:39] Speaker B: Well, and also important to this Is that the way she ended up on the island was that she was also previously involved with Flint? [00:34:48] Speaker A: Yeah, she was previously involved with Flint. And that she also. Then in this moment, Kermit finds out that she's also been involved with Long John Silver. And he's like, him, too, or whatever. And she's like. And then it cuts it, like, hard cuts from that moment to them hanging off. Hanging by their ankles off of this cliff. And we get this great line from Miss Piggy where she says, you know, I'm beginning to see a pattern in the midnight date, which I thought was a very funny line. But also in this scene, they are hanging upside down and Miss Piggy's legs are just out. As your note says. It's always weird. [00:35:26] Speaker B: A little weird to see Muppet legs. [00:35:27] Speaker A: Always a little weird to see Muppet legs. And in this instance, particularly weird because, good God, Miss Piggy is thick as hell. [00:35:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:35] Speaker A: It is insane. It's like. [00:35:38] Speaker B: I mean, she's Miss Piggy. [00:35:41] Speaker A: You're not wrong. It is. I was dying when just every time they showed her legs, I was like, good Lord, some puppet maker was on one that day. [00:35:54] Speaker B: So we get to our big finish. They sail up in the ship and they save Kermit and Miss Piggy. And then we get a big fight scene to finish the movie out where everybody's dueling on the beach. [00:36:08] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like Kermit and Jim and Fozzie. Or not Fozzie, but yeah, I guess he', there, right? [00:36:15] Speaker B: He stays on the ship. [00:36:16] Speaker A: Oh, he stays on the ship. But whatever. All the people who are loyal to Captain Smollett and then. [00:36:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:21] Speaker A: All the pirates fighting on the other side. And Kermit is fighting Long John Silver, specifically, I think, in this moment. Right. Potentially. Yeah. And he starts flipping around, and I was like, holy shit, Kermit is sword fighting. It's literally the end of Star Wars Episode 2, where Yoda starts fighting and he's just, like, flipping off walls. And it's a little green guy just doing flips everywhere. And I was like, it's the same thing. That's incredible. [00:36:51] Speaker B: I wrote, not Kermit back flipping into a fight, like Xena, Warrior Princess. [00:36:56] Speaker A: You're not wrong. That was my other thought, my second thought after. Just because he was so short and green. Yoda was the initial thought, but you're not wrong. As we mentioned, we're watching Xena right now, and, boy, does she love cartwheel or not cartwheeling. Backhand springing into a battle while screaming or not screaming. But doing her Xena yell, it's her favorite thing and maybe one of the sillier things in the whole show. [00:37:21] Speaker B: But I. You know what? [00:37:22] Speaker A: In a show full of silly stuff. [00:37:23] Speaker B: I laugh every time. [00:37:24] Speaker A: Every time, every time. So this is kind of my final point that I was talking about of, like, the way in which I think this movie maybe doesn't work perfectly is that we talked about how in Treasure Planet they may have kind of neutered John Silver too much, to the point where he actually doesn't feel like that much of a villain in that movie. [00:37:49] Speaker B: He almost feels too friendly and enough of a threat. [00:37:53] Speaker A: Yeah, he's never really that scary or that much of a threat other than right initially when we meet him, basically. And then from there on, they bond so quickly and become such close companions that you're like, okay, well, he's clearly going to be a good. You know what I mean? In this one. I think they do a good job of keeping him scary and clearly out for his own good. And, like, yeah, more like the traditional Silver, more menacing. But in. As a result of that, it felt like it made the kind of tearful goodbye between John and Jim, like, not quite land as well as maybe you would want it to. Not that it doesn't work at all, because I think it does work slightly differently. Like, I think part of my point was that, or part of my issue was that I was kind of comparing it to Treasure Planet and the way that relationship played out. Whereas in this one, the tearful goodbye is less to do about the relationship they have and more to do with John Silver seeing himself in Jim and having a very emotional reaction to where his life went. And that, like, that almost feels like more of what's happening in that scene. It's less about, like, oh, my God, he cares so much about Jim is what it feels like to me, and more about, like, seeing the potential in Jim and wanting his life to go differently than maybe John Silver's life did. And, like. And it's almost more of an introspective personal pain in that moment for John Silver than it is, like, a loss of this relationship necessarily. You know what I mean? It's kind of how it felt. [00:39:42] Speaker B: So, yeah, I agree. I do still think that the movie would have been. And that relationship in particular would have been better if we'd had at least one other scene where they, like, where they, like, bond and we see that. [00:39:58] Speaker A: They'Re, like, teaching them to sword fight or something. We don't get any of the, you know, anything, like, that where you see. [00:40:02] Speaker B: And I. And I think something like that could have worked really well because we do see Jim's sword fight at the end of the movie. [00:40:09] Speaker A: Somebody had to learn something. [00:40:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Somebody had to teach him that. [00:40:11] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And that's a classic. It also could have been a good musical number opportunity too, potentially, you know, so. Yeah. [00:40:19] Speaker B: Speaking of that final scene, though, I had a thought as we were watching this, that I wonder how common Jim letting Silver escape is in adaptations. Because that's not from the book. [00:40:34] Speaker A: Yeah. I bet it's from that like, 50s. [00:40:36] Speaker B: Version, probably because it's been now in both adaptations that we've watched, but it is not from the book. [00:40:42] Speaker A: I. We've never seen the 50s Disney one or whatever. I bet that might be where a lot of the spawns, because that was a very big, like, popular movie back in the day. So I bet maybe some of this all starts with that, potentially. [00:40:54] Speaker B: I just had one thing that I found on the Wikipedia page for this movie that I wanted to read real quick. Following the the release of A Muppet Christmas Carol in 1992, it was decided that the next Muppet film would be an adaptation of a classic story. Makes sense, right? Co writer Kirk R. Thatcher stated, quote, there were a whole bunch of ideas out there, and I was most keen on Treasure island and a King Arthur story with medieval dragons and knights. In the end, we all agreed as a group that Treasure island was a better story for the Muppets to take on. And this is not to knock Muppet Treasure island, but now I, like, desperately want Muppet King Arthur. [00:41:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:38] Speaker B: With dragons and knights. [00:41:40] Speaker A: That could be cool. [00:41:41] Speaker B: I think that could have been really fun. No. [00:41:43] Speaker A: Never in a million years. Now there's just. There's no way that hits enough quadrants. [00:41:47] Speaker B: No. [00:41:47] Speaker A: For a studio to green light. [00:41:49] Speaker B: But. God. [00:41:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:51] Speaker B: God. Come on, Disney, throw us a bone. [00:41:55] Speaker A: Yeah, that would have been cool. [00:41:58] Speaker B: I thought this movie was fun. I didn't think it was as good as a Muppet Christmas Carol. I agree. [00:42:02] Speaker A: It's definitely not as good as A Muppet Christmas Carol. But. But it. But it's good. It's good. And I say that as I was not a Muppet Christmas Carol. I feel like I can chime in on this because I'm not somebody who watched A Muppet Christmas Carol as a kid. A bunch. I think I maybe first saw that with you. [00:42:20] Speaker B: Really? [00:42:20] Speaker A: Maybe. Nah, I think I watched. No, no, no. [00:42:23] Speaker B: My sister and I watch it every year. [00:42:24] Speaker A: I know I saw it before that, but only like a couple years before we got together. Like, I saw it in like my late 20s, mid-20s or something like that. I get. Well, yeah, like mid-20s, probably like 24 or something when I saw it. So I didn't see it. My point is I didn't grow up watching it. I didn't have like this like nostalgia for it or anything like that. I've really only started watching it over the last like 10, 12 years. With any. You know, I've seen it now probably 10 times or whatever. [00:42:50] Speaker B: Yes, because of me. [00:42:52] Speaker A: Because of you. But I do. The point being is that I. I genuinely think that it's just a better story. Like, it works better. The music is more. Is. Is catchier and more kind of like. I don't know. Yeah, it's just catchier and more fun music. And. Yeah, it's just kind of. And you can't. I mean, Michael Caine, as good as Tim Curry. As good as Tim Curry is in this movie, he's great. It's still not anywhere close to the performance that Michael Caine turns in in that movie. It's absurd. Yeah, like legitimately should have been an Oscar nominated absurd. That it's. Yeah, it's that good. But anyways, that's gonna do it for this bonus slash Main Line episode. Hope you all enjoyed our discussion of Muppet Treasure Island. Especially for those of you who voted for it and were disappointed that it did not win, you got to hear our take on it. Anyway. So, Katie, what are we talking about? Let's tease the non patrons who may be listening to this to get them to come back next month. [00:43:55] Speaker B: Next month, actual patreon for our Halloween episode. Halloween Patron bonus episode. We are actually covering another Tim Curry film. [00:44:10] Speaker A: Say it. [00:44:11] Speaker B: And it's the Rocky Horror Picture Show. [00:44:13] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. And guess what, folks? I've never seen it. That should be fun. Yeah, no, I've never seen it. I'm very excited to watch it for the first time. But I wasn't a theater kid, so I did not cry. Did not grow up watching Rocky or picture Show. But yeah. So come back in October, sign up at the $5 patron bonus level, and you can listen to our discussion of Rocky Horror Picture Show. Until that time, guys, gals not minor and pals and everybody else, keep reading books, keep watching movies and keep being awesome. Sam.