Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: On this week's prequel episode, we follow up on our the west in Game listener polls and preview Coyote Ugly.
Hello and welcome back to this Film Is lit, the podcast where we talk about movies that are based on books. It's another prequel episode. We got plenty of feedback, plenty to preview for our next episode. So we'll jump right in to our patron shoutouts. I put up with you because your father and mother were our finest patrons. That's why. No new patrons this week. But we do have our Academy Award winning patrons and they are. Amanda, Nicole Goble, Harpo Rat, Nathan, Mathilde Cottonwood, Steve, Ben Wilcox, Theresa Schwartz, Ian from wine Country, Kelly Napier, Gretchen.
Just scratch. Shelby says it's fine. I didn't need a trailer, a real trailer anyway. And that darn skag. Thank you all very much for your continued support. Could not appreciate it more.
Katie, it's time to see what people had to say about the Westing game.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just like your opinion, man.
[00:01:17] Speaker B: And by people. It was mostly Nathan.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: We got other comments.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: Yeah, we got some other comments on Patreon. We had three votes for the book and one for the movie. Kelly Napier said, I showed the book to my 14 year old daughter and when she read the description, she said, oh, so it's like Knives Out. So it made me laugh when you both referenced that movie as well.
I agree it could be redone as a Benoit Blanc story, but not with him paired up with a kid. But as the kid.
[00:01:48] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:01:49] Speaker B: It's the Benoit Blanc origin story.
[00:01:52] Speaker A: Benoit.
Sorry, I was like Benway.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: The Benoit Blanc origin story. His first mystery to solve.
[00:02:00] Speaker A: I like that.
[00:02:01] Speaker B: That would be fun. Yeah, that would be fun.
The story also felt a lot like Only Murders in the Building to me. Especially in the movie when Turtle was first running around with Otis and Sandy, those three walked so Selena Gomez, Martin Short, and Steve Martin could run.
[00:02:16] Speaker A: I can see that. Yeah, I mean, it is like it actually just the bread. Broadly the premise of like a bunch of people in an apartment building.
[00:02:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:02:24] Speaker A: Solving a mystery together. It's. Yeah, that's. Yeah.
[00:02:26] Speaker B: I agreed with everything you said in the episode and also agree the book is better than the movie.
[00:02:31] Speaker A: There you go. Boom. Thank you, Kelly.
[00:02:35] Speaker B: Our next comment was from Charlene, who said, I think you're right on target with the Harriet the Spy comp. Because otherwise, what are the odds of two decades old properties about tween girl sleuths coming out a year apart? Maybe that's what that one critic was referring to. And she called It a ripoff?
[00:02:53] Speaker A: Could be. I still think having read the. We shared the actual review, we found a grab of the newspaper article.
Reading the full context, I think it's more so just broadly saying that the movie is a ripoff, like it's not worth your time or money, as opposed to comparing it and saying it's a ripoff of a something specific, at least based on the review. That would be my interpretation, but could very well could have been that.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: Though now that I'm thinking of it, maybe those odds are higher than I assume as young readers of the 60s and 70s worked their way up in the movie business.
[00:03:29] Speaker A: I didn't realize. Harry at the spot. Is it a book?
[00:03:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Did not realize that we're gonna do that at some point. I have a copy of it sitting over there.
[00:03:38] Speaker A: Oh, okay. I mean, yeah, I've seen it over there forever. I just didn't realize.
Oh, duh. I didn't realize there's a book. As I stared at the book on the shelf for the past year or whatever, it's been over there.
[00:03:51] Speaker B: Our next comment was from Shelby.
Shelby said, this is a bit random, but you brought up Clue. And it made me think of the part where they all get a weapon as a gift. And Ms. Scarlet says, I enjoy getting presents from strange men. That was written by a man, wasn't it?
I looked up the writers of the movie Clue, and they were all men. So presumably.
[00:04:13] Speaker A: Yes, yes, I believe that. I will say that it's been a long time since I've seen the movie, but my memory, the way that reads to me. Is she not being sarcastic in that scene? Like, is she not saying, oh, I do love getting strange gifts or presents from strange people sarcastically?
[00:04:28] Speaker B: I mean, based on what I remember of her character, I would say that's probably a very strong possibility.
[00:04:33] Speaker A: Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. I was like, I just remember what I remember.
[00:04:35] Speaker B: She's being a little bit, like, sardonic.
[00:04:37] Speaker A: She's being sardonic with saying, I enjoy getting presents from strange men.
But maybe not. It may. She may be being genuine and I just truly can't remember. It's been a while since I've seen
[00:04:46] Speaker B: it, but I'm curious what you thought of the Knives out sequels. I enjoyed them, but I think the first is still my favorite. I thought the lead actor in Wake Up Deadman was great. I hadn't seen him before. The weirdest thing for me about that movie was that it felt like a whole miniseries squeezed into a single movie.
[00:05:04] Speaker A: So we Watched the third one when it came out.
[00:05:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:08] Speaker A: In December or whatever.
Whenever that was.
[00:05:10] Speaker B: Whenever that was.
[00:05:11] Speaker A: And I thought the third one was the best one since the first one. Yeah, I thought. I thought the first one. I still think the first one is probably better.
Like, I think. I think if I was ranking them, I'd go 1, 3, 2. That being said, I think 3 is really good.
And I've only watched it once. I've seen the first one two or three times, maybe more. The thing that I really.
The third one has some moments that really hit me, though, in a way that nothing in the first one really did, emotionally, I should say. I guess. I think the third one has some really strong moments.
Specifically, I'm thinking of the scene where the priest, the main actor guy, gets the call from that person and then helps them in the middle of everything that wrecked me.
I thought that was just a beautiful, incredible scene.
And also, I really love some of the banter between Benoit Blanc and the priest about religion and stuff. I was into all of that. Some of the creative choices, I thought were really, really cool. But I think as a story and a screenplay, I think the first one's maybe a little tighter and cleaner. And I do think it doesn't suffer from what kind of. What you're talking about here. With the, like, the third one feeling like a miniseries squeezed into a single movie, I didn't really feel that. But a common complaint that I can at least understand and kind of agree with about the third movie is that it feels like some of the cast gets a little shortchanged because there's just not enough time, really, to get to know some of the characters as much as you would like.
[00:06:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:50] Speaker A: Which I. Which is kind of an issue in all of them, because there's. It's a. It's a. That's. They're all ensembles with tons of people and you. You know, you're only spending.
[00:06:58] Speaker B: Right. Yeah.
[00:06:59] Speaker A: With them.
[00:06:59] Speaker B: Some of the characters are going to be lower on the totem pole.
[00:07:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:03] Speaker B: But I. I agree with you. I would. I would go, knives out. Wake up, dead man. Glass Onion.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: And I liked. I liked Glass Onion.
[00:07:11] Speaker A: I didn't even dislike Glass Onion. It definitely wasn't as good as the first one. And I, like. I said I think three is a step up from two, but I still like Glass Onion. I don't think it's bad or anything.
[00:07:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:20] Speaker A: I know some people don't like it, but I still. I still think it's interesting. I just think it's. It for Me, the main thing I don't like about it and the reason I like 3 as much is just the general aesthetic of it more than anything.
[00:07:33] Speaker B: Specifically, it feels a little less like a murder mystery than the others.
[00:07:38] Speaker A: Being on the tropical island with the kind of vaguely fantasy feeling, estate and stuff and the big glass, it just felt less like what I like in what I liked about the first Knives out, which was kind of the very intimate, you know, Northeastern America. Like we always joke like it's a, it's a, the first movie is like a Thanksgiving movie. Kind of feels like it's about family and like family drama and dynamics and everybody's wearing like cable knit sweaters and it's very brown and orange and like, you know, it just has that vibe. And I thought Wake Up Dead man kind of recaptured again the vibes and aesthetic that I liked about the first movie that the second one didn't quite.
[00:08:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:21] Speaker A: Hit. Even though I thought the second one was still pretty good.
[00:08:23] Speaker B: We have had a, a fall Knives out movie and a spring one because Wake Up Dead man takes place right before Easter.
[00:08:33] Speaker A: Yes, it's Easter.
[00:08:34] Speaker B: And then, and then we had a summer one.
[00:08:36] Speaker A: It's like summer.
[00:08:36] Speaker B: So we need a winter to complete winter.
[00:08:39] Speaker A: Like a Christmas night.
[00:08:40] Speaker B: The quartet.
[00:08:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:43] Speaker B: And Shelby agrees. Shelby said hoping they make a fourth one. Maybe some of my Marvel faves can show up this time once they're done filming Secret Wars. Yeah, perhaps.
[00:08:53] Speaker A: Who knows? I, I always just find it interesting to see who shows up in them because that's always fun.
[00:08:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:58] Speaker A: I always like when it's, I actually don't want it to be people that like, I want. I don't know if that makes sense. Like I, I, I'm excited that I never am like predict who is like going to be in the, like, I don't, I just want to be. I want Rian Johnson to put weird random people that he thinks will be fun as an ensemble cast in the movie.
[00:09:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:17] Speaker A: And that's what I want to watch and whoever that is, that's what I'm interested in.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: Our final comment on Patreon was from Nathan and Nathan said, I definitely preferred the movie by just a little. But before listening to the pod, I thought that was just because it was a simpler to follow version of the story really.
I was legitimately surprised that a kid's book was hard for me to follow and that I needed a simpler version to get into the story. Now that I have heard how confusing Brian found the movie, I'm a bit thrown. Perhaps I Just need a second time through the story to really follow the beats.
[00:09:54] Speaker A: I do wonder if having read the book first, if you.
[00:09:57] Speaker B: You, I'm sure you would have had
[00:09:59] Speaker A: an easy watch to the movie following
[00:10:01] Speaker B: it had you read the book, like even.
[00:10:03] Speaker A: And I was specifically referring to Nathan here, not myself, but I was saying I wonder if having read the book first, even though you found the book a little confusing on your first read, it still gave you. Yeah, a lot of groundwork and touch points that then in the movie you're just connecting dots that the movie is giving you, whereas I'm going in completely blank to the movie going, I don't understand what any of this is referencing. You have those reference points even if again, you don't fully understand it. And then the movie helps connect those dots. And then I guarantee what you said there, if you went back and read it a second time, I think I would bet that it would fall together a lot clearer for you.
[00:10:40] Speaker B: Regarding the book, I will say that the only thing I knew right away was that the clues were the lyrics to America the Beautiful. It wasn't even from the clues themselves, but from the line May God thy gold refine. Flora says in response to Turtle's plan to invest in the stock market. And they briefly discuss if it is from the Bible or Shakespeare.
I recognize it as a line from America the Beautiful that happens on the page after we see the first set of clues. So I kind of thought we would be getting new puzzles to solve. I also never picked up on the fact that the mystery was to determine who killed Westing. So I was expecting a sort of scavenger hunt race to find a hidden treasure, not a murder. Myst.
I just kept wandering through a story about a lot of seemingly unrelated diversions which kept us from getting back to the mansion so the next clue in the game could be revealed. The movie is so much more focused as we follow a single protagonist in Turtle as they investigate a mystery in what felt to me like a pretty linear and logical plot. I did think maybe the plot was a bit heavy handed when we had to have Sydal explicitly say that Angie did the second bomb because she want. She wants to delay the wedding. But I much preferred that to the book where Turtle just somehow now knew Angie was the bomber.
I as the reader wasn't even sure if she was right or not until the end because it felt like she just assumed that without any evidence.
[00:12:03] Speaker A: I will say in the movie, I felt like that reveal was kind of blindsided me and it was on was not Set up in any way to where I felt like.
[00:12:16] Speaker B: I will say I would have to go back and reread that scene in the book because I feel like there was something that tipped Turtle off, but I can't remember what it was. I would have to go back and look.
[00:12:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:28] Speaker B: Or maybe we're just supposed to think that, like, she knows her sister.
I don't know. Yeah, maybe I was just having a slow week in my perception, but the movie held my hand in the way that I needed, and so I preferred it.
[00:12:40] Speaker A: That's fascinating. I really think you feel this way because you read the book first. Like, I. I did not feel like the movie was holding my hand. I felt like the movie didn't give a shit about me and was just like, here's the plot kind of chaotically hold. You can piece it together. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe I'm mistake, but I. I felt like it was chaos in the movie having not.
Not read the book.
[00:13:07] Speaker B: To be clear, I do realize that the twist at the end is that the murderer isn't actually what they're looking for. I just never realized that I was supposed to think that.
I always thought that it was a quest to become his heir and thus the reveal that this was true all along. Totally missed me.
Yeah.
[00:13:26] Speaker A: In the movie, it's very clear that they're looking for. Yeah, obviously I haven't read the book. In the movie, it's very.
Yeah. I don't know how to compare them. Obviously, I can't. But, like, they. Yeah, they pretty explicitly outline that.
Yeah. That you look. They're looking for the murderer initially.
[00:13:42] Speaker B: Like, I do think so. The idea that they're supposed to be finding his murderer is kind of a trick in, like, the way that the will was worded.
They kind of more like assume that that's what they're looking for.
[00:13:58] Speaker A: Yeah, it's never explicitly.
[00:14:00] Speaker B: It's never explicitly stated. But I also. I also think there may have been something in the book, in the will about, like, they're definitely gonna inherit all of his money, but there may have been something about the estate too. Like, if you can solve the riddle, you get you're his heir, basically. So it's kind of both.
[00:14:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay.
[00:14:24] Speaker B: Sorry. This might end up being a bit segmented because I wanted to get a post in and I'm still listening to the pod. This is not a Willy Wonka situation in the movie. Westing is not a good guy in the movie, and he isn't testing folks to find the best person to take over for him.
He explicitly says during the cemetery walk that he thought the money would make everyone become miserable and rip them apart. He intentionally made a riddle that was unsolvable because the question it was asking was unclear.
He felt a little bad at the very end and told T.R. turtle because they had done the most to solve the fake riddle. This was not at all because she chose to spare Mrs. Crow.
[00:15:02] Speaker A: I'll take your word for it because I will say I don't. I can't pretend to understand what the movie was doing, but that was my interpretation, so I don't know.
[00:15:09] Speaker B: And. And that whole part of the movie was not from the book, as we discussed.
So we. We did talk about, like, the kind of Willy Wonka thing as a potential read on what the movie was doing. Not as, like, this is definitely what the movie.
[00:15:27] Speaker A: And not exactly the same thing.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: Like a similar type of thing. Like, I. I. Like I said that was my interpretation, was that the whole point was he set this all up in order to get them all to work together, but specifically also to reveal that.
Yeah, maybe that's not the case. I don't know. I'm saying I'm. Because that was my interpretation after thinking through it, after the fact. But, like, I'm not gonna argue with you because I don't have strong feelings. And I genuinely. I'm like, I don't.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: Also, I would point out that Willy Wonka was also not a good guy.
[00:16:04] Speaker A: Yes.
And, well, in certain. Yeah. Yes.
[00:16:08] Speaker B: At least he set those kids up to fail.
[00:16:11] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. But they were bad kids, which he knew.
[00:16:13] Speaker B: So I still would say that makes him not a good guy.
[00:16:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:21] Speaker B: Also, what Northrop says is that he has 20 applicants. Not 20 Africans.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: I swear he says Africans.
[00:16:29] Speaker B: I mean, applicants make more sense, but
[00:16:31] Speaker A: applicants, I guess, make sense. But I swear he said African American over on Facebook.
[00:16:37] Speaker B: We had zero votes for the book and one for the movie. And a comment from Nathan, who said, I preferred the film by a little bit. I was looking for religious moments or themes because of it being owned by Dove. And then in the credits, Trinity Pictures is listed as involved in making Slash releasing the film. There really isn't much, and it feels. I felt like turtles kicking adults is exactly the sort of silly thing they hate in movies, so it's odd they own it now.
[00:17:04] Speaker A: I think the idea is that it's.
It doesn't have anything remotely like, yeah, questionable in it for kid. Like, again, other than her, I guess, kicking. But even that's playful and silly enough
[00:17:18] Speaker B: that I don't Pretty benign. Yeah.
[00:17:19] Speaker A: Yeah. But, like, there's no, like, there's no. There's no. There's no relationship stuff. There's no, like, there's no kissing. There's no bullying. There's no smoking or drinking. You know, there's like, literally nothing, at least to my memory, that would be other than some light racism, which they don't care about. So, you know, I think that would be the reason that it's. And also my guess would be Dove probably bought it because it was cheap. Like, probably it's a thing they could throw on their streaming service that the rights for probably cost absolutely nothing. Yeah, so would be my. And it's family friendly enough that. Yeah, they can just slap it on
[00:17:58] Speaker B: there over on Instagram. Also, no votes for the book and one for the movie. And a comment from Nathan, who said, I preferred the movie by just a bit.
As a baseball fan, I was quite upset that in the book, the fourth edition of the who's on restaurants was who's on fourth, when it should obviously be who's on home?
[00:18:17] Speaker A: Who's on fourth.
[00:18:19] Speaker B: The joke at the end of the book is that they keep putting restaurants on the different floors, naming them after, like, street thing. No, naming them after, like, the different floors of the building.
[00:18:29] Speaker A: Yeah, okay.
[00:18:30] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:18:30] Speaker A: So, yeah, they're doing. So it's a. It's a pun then.
[00:18:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:33] Speaker A: Right. Like, who's on fourth being who in implying that they're on home, but they're on the fourth floor because the fourth base is home, I think. I don't know. I would have to see the context in the book, I think it kind of works.
[00:18:44] Speaker B: But over on Blue sky, we had zero votes for the book and one for the movie. And Nathan said, I picked the movie by a little bit. In the book, it's weird to me that while Turtle feels the most like the protagonist and gets the traditional protagonist ending, Angie is actually the one who collects all the clues and solves the riddle that isn't actually the riddle.
Turtle is the one who figures out that she needs to find all of the various identities of Mr. Westing, though.
But also, typical younger sister.
Yeah, she's taking her older sister's work.
[00:19:20] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:19:21] Speaker B: And finally, over on Goodreads, we had one vote for the book and one for the movie.
And Nathan said, what the fuck is going on? In the book, with adults pulling a child's pigtails, Flora Bombach is explicitly described as having done so. And given. And given that Turtle only kicks shins in self defense and multiple adults end up with bruised shins. It feels like the adults of the Sunset Towers have an alarming sense of how to interact with children.
I would chalk that up to a time period thing. Yeah, the 70s or whenever this was written.
[00:19:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
It's still not. Apparently not. It's still a somewhat controversial stance that you shouldn't hit children. So yanking on a pigtail was not exactly a.
You know, seen as that outlandish of a. In action.
[00:20:11] Speaker B: Yeah. And our last comment is from Miko and Miko said the movie is missing the most important thing about the whole puzzle. People actually trying to solve it. No one, not even Turtle and Chris, are really trying to solve anything. They just throw their clues into Google and hope for the best.
The best change the movie makes is that it anchors the story clearly to Turtle's point of view. While following everyone's riddle solving attempts was fun in the book, it also very quickly revealed that everybody was just floundering and there was no real progress, especially as plenty of the clues were revealed to the reader almost immediately.
As a non American, I did not make the America the Beautiful connection specifically, but I was sure that combining all the clues would result in something known.
[00:21:00] Speaker A: True.
[00:21:01] Speaker B: While the point of view change was good, the movie didn't really utilize it. They could have easily concentrated on the clue sharing aspect and have Turtle deducing other people's clues as Angela does in the book. There's also aspects of the book I found a bit frustrating.
There were so many moments while reading that when I wasn't sure if I was missing something like Turtle confronting Angela about setting up the explosions. How does she know? Or how at one point a paramedic just poofs into a scene. The ambulance is called, sure, but with no introduction, no break in text, or clear indication that any time has passed. There's just the new speaking character in the scene already examining the patient.
[00:21:41] Speaker A: But that first complaint sounds similar to one that one Nathan made earlier about that specific.
[00:21:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would. Again, I would have to look back at that scene and it's possible that that's just a plot hole in the book.
But a big thing that could have worked so much better in the movie is the reading of the will. Specifically the line, the heir who wins the windfall will be the one who finds the fourth. The scene in the book is supposed to read like we missed the end of the sentence thanks to Sandy's interruption, but there's well over a dozen people present and not a single one comments about not hearing the final word, even when the missing bit is literally the win condition.
The lawyer even repeats an earlier section when asked. So it's not some you only get to hear this once type of deal.
Because the will was typeset as if we were reading the rules ourselves, I was simply left confused, wondering if Sandy managed to cut off the narrator itself.
I could see this working in a version titled to Turtle's pov. Especially in a movie where the lawyer can actually be drowned out by the other people. So we'd assume only Turtle missed the final bit.
The movie somewhat does this, just not that well. Yeah. Add some misinformation from Sandy that they have to figure out the murderer and we could have Turtle slowly realize that nobody actually knows for sure what they are trying to accomplish as she trades clues.
Yeah, that sounds interesting.
Myriads of things that the movie could have done better.
[00:23:09] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:23:10] Speaker B: Despite the book being filled to the brim with red herrings, I preferred it over the movie. I could so easily imagine a better version of the film that it's aggravating.
[00:23:19] Speaker A: Fair.
[00:23:21] Speaker B: So our winner this week was actually the movie. Wow. With five votes.
[00:23:27] Speaker A: Right.
[00:23:27] Speaker B: And I, I, I do think that I don't, I don't care that people want to vote in multiple places, as I've said many times, but this one probably should have an asterisk on it since all of the movie votes were from one person.
[00:23:39] Speaker A: Yeah, that is a. We will put an asterisk next to that one. Again, it is fine to vote multiple places, but especially because there weren't a ton of votes on this one. Definitely get to put your thumb on the scale in a way that you don't normally. So. Yeah. All right, that is it for our listener feedback. Thank you so much. We always love hearing what you all have to say about the stuff we talk about. Katie, it's time now to preview the muse of the Coyote Ugly Saloon.
I'm the parent. You're the child running away to live by herself.
I should be telling you how to live.
[00:24:15] Speaker B: How should I live?
[00:24:16] Speaker A: Simple. Don't go.
Good luck.
[00:24:22] Speaker B: See your sky? Pen and gray.
[00:24:23] Speaker A: There, I said it.
[00:24:25] Speaker B: But I do love love you.
[00:24:29] Speaker A: Put some pepper spray in your purse. Even if you're not sure, just start spraying.
Tell me that isn't yours.
[00:24:35] Speaker B: Of course not.
[00:24:37] Speaker A: It's a two bedroom.
[00:24:39] Speaker B: I heard that there might be a job opening. We start Friday night.
[00:24:43] Speaker A: You're giving me a job?
[00:24:48] Speaker B: The Muse of the Coyote Ugly Saloon is a personal essay written by former bartender Elizabeth Gilbert. Gilbert is a journalist and author now best known for her 2006 memoir, Eat, Pray Love, which was also adapted into a 2010 film.
[00:25:05] Speaker A: I know nothing about that. I'm sure we'll do it one day. I know literally nothing about that. But it's interesting to me.
[00:25:12] Speaker B: I think she just, like, goes to. To Italy and, like, is Italy or, like, maybe Greece.
[00:25:20] Speaker A: Oh, that would make sense. For some reason, in my head, she went to, like, India. I thought it was like, she.
[00:25:26] Speaker B: Maybe she goes multiple places.
[00:25:27] Speaker A: I thought it was like, she goes, like, somewhat because I. For some reason, Eat, Pray, Love. In my head, it has, like, a Hinduism or, like, Eastern religion type of undertone to it.
[00:25:36] Speaker B: I say it genuinely, just literally, because I feel like I remember a brief moment in, like, the trailer for that movie where she's eating pasta.
[00:25:45] Speaker A: Oh, okay, sure.
[00:25:46] Speaker B: But maybe she. Maybe she goes to multiple places.
[00:25:49] Speaker A: That is more. You're going on more than I am because I'm literally just going on the vague cultural sense that I have of this movie and, like, seeing the COVID of it and just kind of assuming that it had something to do with, like.
Yeah, like. Like Hindu, not Hinduism specifically, but like. Like a white person, like, doing touristy, like, Eastern religion stuff or something was kind of what I assumed it was. But I actually genuinely have no idea. But yours makes maybe more sense because I was a little surprised. I was like, so the person who wrote that, wrote it was like, a coyote.
I don't know. I don't know anything about Elizabeth Gilbert. And so the whole thing is. This whole thing is fascinating to me.
[00:26:29] Speaker B: I mean, I knew her as the author of Eat, Pray Love until we googled this and were, like, looking this up. The last time we watched this movie, I had no idea that she was a Coyote.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:26:42] Speaker B: But anyway, this essay, which was a memoir of Gilbert's time working at the original Coyote Ugly Saloon, was published in 1997 in GQ magazine, and it brought the bar to national prominence.
[00:26:59] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:27:00] Speaker B: The original Coyote Ugly Saloon opened in 1993 in New York City, and today it is an international chain of bars with locations in Las Vegas, New Orleans, Moscow, Liverpool, London, and a bunch of other cities.
[00:27:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I have actually been to the Coyote Ugly Saloon in Las Vegas.
[00:27:19] Speaker B: Have you? Did they dance on the bar?
[00:27:21] Speaker A: They did. I don't remember a lot. We weren't there for a long time. But I remember a few of my. When we were. I was there on a school trip in college. Every.
Every year, the TV and film program would go to Las Vegas for, I believe, NAB Conference, which is national association of Broadcast. I don't know, some Conference in Vegas. That's like a tech exposition of like camera stuff and just like, you know, TV and film industry convention, basically.
And I went to that in 2000, probably like 1110 somewhere in there.
And we went one evening we swung by the Coyote Ugly Saloon that I believe is in New York. New York, which would make sense, that casino. I'm pretty sure that's where it was. And we were in there for about 10 minutes. They did dance on the bar, but it was so loud and full of insane drunk people that we left pretty quickly.
[00:28:17] Speaker B: It sounds very overstimulating.
[00:28:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:28:22] Speaker B: I also think Vegas sounds kind of overstimulating, though. Yeah, I've never been.
[00:28:27] Speaker A: It was not the favorite place I've ever.
[00:28:28] Speaker B: But it doesn't sound like it's for me particularly.
[00:28:31] Speaker A: I don't think it is. There's stuff there you would enjoy, but it's definitely not. Yeah, it's not our kind of city, generally.
[00:28:40] Speaker B: So in addition to the movie that we'll be discussing, there was also a CMT reality competition show that ran from 2006 to 2008 in which contestants competed to become a Coyote.
[00:28:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I remember seeing commercials for that.
[00:28:58] Speaker B: Gilbert's original essay is available on GQ's website and we will share that link out on our different posts for this episode. If you Google the title, it'll pop right up. It's like the first thing that comes up. It also appeared in an anthology titled Never can say Goodbye. Writers on Their Unshakable Love for New York, which is what I'm shelving on Goodreads for this episode.
[00:29:23] Speaker A: Sweet. So very good.
All right, that was it for the. Not a book, the article.
Now let's learn a little bit about Coyote Ugly, the film.
[00:29:34] Speaker B: So I'm a Coyote Five nights a week now.
[00:29:37] Speaker A: Shake it.
Okay. Give me a glass of water. Do we serve water in this bar?
This is the greatest party I've ever made, too.
You're unbelievable.
Coyote ugly is a 2000 film directed by David McNally, known for Kangaroo Jack.
[00:30:02] Speaker B: Nice.
[00:30:02] Speaker A: And a couple episodes of the Beauty and the Beast TV show, among a few other things, but not really much else. Which is interesting because we'll get into it. But I thought this was a pretty well directed movie.
The film was written by Gina Windkos, but we'll get into that more. Gina Windcoast was known for. She wrote the Princess diaries, Princess Diaries 2, the Royal Engagement and the Perfect man among all the.
[00:30:25] Speaker B: I don't know what that is.
[00:30:27] Speaker A: It was. I can't remember who was in it, but it was from this time period and had. It was like a rom com. It looked like with.
Again, I can't remember who was in it.
This film stars Piper Perabo, Adam Garcia, John Goodman, Maria Bello, Isabella Miko, Tyra Banks, Bridget Moynihan, Melanie Melanie Lynskey, Alex Boorstein, Michael Weston and Leanne Rimes. It has a 23% on Rotten Tomatoes, a 27% on Metacritic and a 5.8 out of 10 on IMDb.
Phyllis Steins it was nominated for a few random awards, including at the Stinkers Bad Movie Awards, which is not the Razzies. I was wondering to see if it was nominated for Razzies and it wasn't, which is crazy. I was convinced it was going to be nominated for Razzies but it was not.
But it was nominated for at the Stinker Bad Movie Awards for most Unintentionally Funny Movie, which is wild to me and worst screenplay for a budget grossing over $100 million.
It made 113 million or 113.9 million against a budget of 45 million.
So getting into the screenwriting, this is a fascinating journey.
I think a lot of people have probably heard this fun fact because he's talked about it quite a few times. But Kevin Smith did an uncredited rewrite of the script and he has stated that eight different writers worked on the script, but only Gina Wentcoast got credit from the Writers Guild. Gina wrote the first draft of the script and according to Kevin Smith, the final version, version that was filmed, barely resembles that original version.
Some other people that included that got in on it. Jeff Nathanson, known for Rush Hour 2, Catch Me if youf can, the Terminal, Rush Hour 3 and Indiana Jones, Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, The Lion King 2019 and Mufasa. The Lion King, among other things, wrote a draft that David McNally, the director, said, quote, brought the thing home. So in, in the director's opinion, Jeff Nathanson's draft was like kind of the. The final draft that, you know, was like the important, most important one. But he was only credited on the initial theatrical poster and not on the finished final film for whatever reason. Again, usually there's weird Writers Guild fascinating stuff mixed up in all of this.
Carrie Fisher apparently wrote a draft of the script and this was outlined by a retrospective article on the ringer that is titled Do We Serve Water in this Bar? An Oral History of Coyote Ugly. And that includes contributions from Elizabeth Gilbert, Kevin Smith, Bridget Moynihan, Diane Warren and others. So there's a I didn't read it all, but that's where a lot of this information comes from is a few years ago they did like kind of a retrospective discussion about Coyote Ugly and interviewed a bunch of the people who were involved.
This is fun. Jessica Simpson and Jewel were both considered for the lead role of Violet Sanford. That ultimately went to Piper Peribo. January Jones also auditioned for the role. Could have had Betty Draper playing.
Playing a Coyote would have been interesting.
Jessica Simpson went through so many auditions for the lead character, but ultimately dropped out because according to Wikipedia or this might have been IMDb trivia. Fun fact, I can't remember, the filmmakers refused to take out the sex scene in the movie. Ultimately, that sex scene was cut from the theatrical release anyways. Yeah, there is an untied, like an un unrated release in the movie that has more of that in there. But. Yeah, but on July 16, 1999, Piper Peribo was announced in the role and Leanne Rimes does all of Piper Peribo singing in the film.
So the film was filmed primarily in Manhattan and South Amboy and Seabright in New Jersey. So mostly in the actual places that it took place, which is, you know, soundtrack album for this movie was on The Billboard Top 40 album chart for over a year and has sold over 3 million copies.
[00:34:23] Speaker B: Take a wild guess who had one of those copies.
[00:34:27] Speaker A: I mean, it's a hell of a soundtrack. We'll get into it, but.
So some IMDb trivia fun facts here. Bridget Moynihan was taller than the set designers originally thought when they were building the sets. And they actually had to raise the bar that is over the counter in the film that, like on the ceiling or whatever. They had to raise that so she wouldn't bang her head off it during dancing scenes after test screenings, the filmmakers discovered that the audience was wanted more of John Goodman. And so they filmed additional scenes with him and added that into the final cut of the film. Which I liked him in this movie and I thought his character was fun. So that makes sense.
Gina Windco said that she was actually surprised that Jerry Bruckheimer wanted to produce this movie because he generally does like action stuff and she didn't think this was his style at all, which I would, you know, generally agree with. But we'll talk more about that in the actual episode because maybe it kind of is his style.
The band the Calling, we were laughing about this when we watched this movie a month or a couple months ago. The band the Calling is seen in the film performing their hit wherever you Will go over a year before it was officially released. So this is actually kind of what made like they were like previewing that song in this movie. Tyra Banks, who was only briefly appears in the movie, tore her lateral meniscus dancing on the bar at one point.
In Less Fun. And then my final fun fact before we get to some some critical reviews. In Less Fun Facts, Melanie Lynskey told the Hollywood Reporter in August of 2022 that she was constantly body shamed by everyone and pressured to lose weight. While filming this movie. She had to wear Spanx in wardrobe fittings and received criticisms about her body from the costume designers and people doing her makeup on the film set. She said, quote, all the girls had this regimen they had to go on. It was ridiculous. I was already starving myself and as thin as I could possibly be for this body and I was was still a size 4.
Just the feedback, very small. Yes, just the feedback was constantly like, you're not beautiful, you're not beautiful. You're in your early 20s. So much of it is about beauty and how people responded to you and do people want to fuck you? End quote. And so yeah, it's insane.
[00:36:33] Speaker B: Unfortunately not surprising.
[00:36:35] Speaker A: Not surprising at all. But just yeah.
So getting into some reviews.
Peter Travers for Rolling Stone dismissed the film saying quote, bruckheimer claims he's made a film about female empowerment. But. But it's soft core pap for horny boys and their hornier dads.
This is amazing. I.
I'm not here. Look, Peter Travers, I think you're wrong.
I'm not saying this is the most feminist film ever made, but I think everybody is wrong about this movie, Robert.
[00:37:12] Speaker B: It is the particular type of like quote unquote feminism on display here is very like of the time.
[00:37:22] Speaker A: I don't think we'll get into it. I love to see when we get to the movie. I think it's more progressive than it should be given it came out in 2000. Yes. And is a Jerry Bruckheimer produced like women dancing on bars movie. I was blown away at how feminist quote unquote, this movie is.
[00:37:41] Speaker B: All right, well there.
[00:37:41] Speaker A: Well, we'll get there.
[00:37:42] Speaker B: There's your teaser for the episode.
[00:37:45] Speaker A: Got.
But I mean again it's not. We, we'll get into it. But also more. More important. Not maybe not more importantly, I also think it's a good movie. But Robert Kohler of Variety called it, quote, the latest and most calculated redo on the formulaic fantasy of an innocent conquering Gotham, end quote. Which that I can agree with it's of all the criticisms this movie can get, the fact that it's kind of generic, cliche, been done a million times that I don't disagree in terms of like the bones of like what the narrative is.
Absolutely it is. It's not breaking any new ground in that regard.
Writing for the Associated Press man Matt Crinson said, quote, the acting is amateurish, the dialogue is painful to hear, and the plot is about as spontaneous as the Republican National Convention. End quote.
Again, I disagree with, again, the plot not being spontaneous. Sure, I that I can agree with, but I don't agree about the acting or the dialogue. We'll get to to him.
Kenneth Turin for the LA Times said, quote, a shameless but very watchable piece of youthful romantic fantasy. End quote. Thank you, Kenneth Turin, for understanding this movie.
Peter Rayner for New York Magazine slash Vulture said, quote, the dreadful Coyote Ugly seems to have been made for prepubescent dirty old men. End quote.
[00:39:08] Speaker B: You know, I am noticing all men,
[00:39:11] Speaker A: yep, a lot of men thinking that this movie was made for men. And I'm like, I don't look, it was. I'm not saying it wasn't. It definitely was. But like, I don't think it's to the degree. Anyways, it's gonna be so fun to talk about.
Michael Atkinson, writing for Village Voice, said, I'd rather eat ball bearings than I watched this movie, I assume. And the King. Roger Ebert for the Chicago Sun Times gave it two stars, which is not too bad because I believe they only do four stars. Or maybe he does five. I thought he did four stars stars. I like the max. So two's not bad.
He asked, quote, do you get the feeling these movies are assembled from off the shelf parts? And said went on to say that he does not, although he does not ask for originality. He criticized the complete lack of surprises, but he did praise the technical merits of the film. Quote, but you can pump up the volume only so far before it becomes noise. He did call Parabo though, the reason to see the movie, saying, quote, she is one of those friendly Julia Roberts Albert's smiles, good comic timing, ease and confidence on the screen and a career ahead of her in movies better than this one. Lots better. End quote. So Roger Ebert, also not a huge fan, but didn't completely panic either. So yeah, those are some of the reviews.
We'll see how people feel. I'm so ready to take on the world on this one. Katie. Katie. Where can people watch Coyote Ugly?
[00:40:33] Speaker B: Well, as always, you can check with your local Library. Or if you still have a local video rental store, you can check with them.
We used to get this from our local video rental store when I was in middle school.
Otherwise, you can stream this with a subscription to Disney plus or Hulu, or you can rent it for between three and five dollars from Prime Video, Apple TV, YouTube or Fandango at home.
[00:41:01] Speaker A: Yep. There you go. As we've discussed at length, at this point, I'm very excited to watch this again. We just watched it.
[00:41:07] Speaker B: We watched it a couple months ago. We have a standing movie night with a friend of. As a coworker. And this one was my first pick.
[00:41:16] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:41:17] Speaker B: And I was very anxious because I thought you both were gonna think it was stupid.
[00:41:21] Speaker A: Yeah. I had never seen it. I mean, I had heard of it and, like, I was. I'd probably seen a scene or two of it on TV over the years, like. Or whatever. But I'd never watched more than.
[00:41:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:30] Speaker A: Two minutes.
[00:41:31] Speaker B: And I had not seen it since middle school.
[00:41:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:34] Speaker B: So I, like, went into this viewing. Like, I haven't seen this in a really long time. I don't know how it's gonna measure. Like, I don't know how it's gonna age.
[00:41:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
And I came out of it going, hey. And then when we found out the reason we're doing it is because I came out of it going, hey, this movie. My hot take is this movie's just good. Like, genuinely a pretty good movie. Not again, not a masterpiece, not, like, amazing, but, like, a pretty good movie.
And very much not what I was expecting, especially in terms of, like, sexual politics and stuff. For a movie produced by Jerry Bruckheimer that came out in the year 2000 and that has a cameo from Michael Bay.
My. Maybe that's what it is. Maybe the bar was on the floor and the movie stepped right over it.
But.
Which is ironic, given the.
Yeah. But I. I was legitimately so taken aback both by how progressive I thought the movie was generally and just beyond that, how well made I thought it was. And it's one of those things where people will get to it in the episode. But I think one of the big things that hit me was just, like, how good it looks, which is. We just. Movies don't look like that anymore, man. Because it was shot on film and it looks good.
And. Yeah. And I think maybe that maybe gave it a few extra points that I was.
That it maybe otherwise wouldn't have. But who knows? We're gonna rewatch it again with an even more critical eye. Cause we. Again, we Were just watching it on a fun movie night. We weren't really, you know, but I kind of can't help but watch every movie through that.
[00:43:08] Speaker B: The lens of it's impossible now at
[00:43:10] Speaker A: this point, which I don't mind. I still. It doesn't make me not enjoy movies or whatever, clearly, but ye very excited. And also, like I said, this is one I really am interested to hear people responses and feelings on and see if people agree with me. Because I would bet a lot of people either haven't seen this movie or definitely have not seen it in 20 years or whatever.
[00:43:31] Speaker B: And you know what? I'm gonna challenge anyone who listens to our show that thinks this movie is not gonna be their cup of tea. Please try to try it.
[00:43:40] Speaker A: Try it.
[00:43:41] Speaker B: It.
[00:43:41] Speaker A: Go in with an open mind. Do your best. Try to go in with an open mind. I went in with not even that open. I mean, I go into most movies with a pretty open mind because I, I think it's your job as a. I think it's your job as a movie viewer is to go in with an open mind and try to meet the movie at what it's doing and engage with it on its level. I think that's just a good way to watch and engage with all media and whatever. But specifically in this regard, like I said, I. I went in like as much of an open mind as I could, but I didn't go in like, like expecting to like it by any stretch. And it won me over. So try to go in with an open mind and very interested, but you know, if you don't like it, I want to hear why. So can't wait. We're gonna come back next week. And I'm like, guys, I'm sorry we watched it again. I think it sucks.
No. But yeah, I very much cannot wait to discuss this one. So come back in one week's time. We're talking about Coyote Ugly. Until that time, guys, gals, not battery pals.
[00:44:32] Speaker B: And everybody else, keep reading, reading books,
[00:44:34] Speaker A: keep watching movies and keep being awesome.
