[00:00:09] Speaker A: On this week's prequel episode, we follow up on our Voyage of the Dawn Treader listener polls and preview. Orton hears a who.
Hello and welcome back to another prequel episode of this film is lit podcast where we talk about movies that are based on books. Boy, we got a lot of feedback to get to on Voyage of the Dawn Treader. So we will jump right in to our patron shoutouts.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: I put up with you because your father and mother were our finest patrons.
[00:00:41] Speaker A: That's why. One new patron this week and then a free patron slash something that was going on there.
We have one free patron, James Pipkin, who joined. Thank you, James.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: And.
[00:00:54] Speaker A: And then one $5 Hugo Award winning patron getting access to that bonus content, Adam Muto. So thank you. I don't know why I put like a extra little bit on your last name there. Just happened. I'm sorry.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: A little flare.
[00:01:10] Speaker A: A little flare. Maybe that is how you pronounce your name. Maybe I nailed it. Maybe my brain just knew and did it. I don't know. Adam Muto. Anyways, thank you Adam for supporting us and getting access to that bonus content.
As always, we would like to thank our Academy Award winning patrons. And they are. Nicole Goble, Eric Harpo, Rat, Nathan Vic Apocalypse, Mathilde Cottonwood, Steve Int Draft. Teresa Schwartz, Ian from Wine Country, Kelly Napier, Gratch Justgratch. Shelby's tired of the leopards eating people's faces. Party that darn Skag. Vee Frank and Alina Starkov, thank you all for your continued support at the Academy Award winning level. For those, if you're new here and don't know the Academy Award winning level, you get access to all the bonus content but also priority recommendations where if there's something you'd really like for us to talk about, support us at that level and stick around and then we'll add that to our list as soon as we feasibly can. Which we have a long list, but we'll get it on there. So those are our Academy Award winning patrons. Now, Katie, it's time to see what the people had to say about the Chronicles of Narnia, the Voyage of the Dawn Treader. Yeah, well, you know, that's just like your opinion, man.
[00:02:25] Speaker B: Well, on Patreon we had two votes for the book, three for the movie, and two listeners who couldn't decide.
[00:02:33] Speaker A: I feel like we have more comments than that. Am I crazy? Maybe we don't.
[00:02:37] Speaker B: Maybe. I don't know.
[00:02:38] Speaker A: I don't know.
[00:02:39] Speaker B: It's kind of a pain in the butt to go in and like look at who actually voted on Patreon.
[00:02:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: You have to like download a spreadsheet and then the spreadsheet is weird and then the spreadsheet like doesn't want to open and you have to like scroll through it and look and match people's names. So I usually just don't do that.
[00:02:57] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know why it's so hard to. Why they make it so weird to.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: Results on polls on Patreon.
[00:03:03] Speaker B: But anyway, we did get quite a few comments, the first of which was from KD who said, I don't think I will ever forget that description that was read from the Book of Aslan, freeing Eustace from the dragon. I am haunted by how creepy some of the language is, especially with a young child and some divine figure. I voted. I couldn't decide because I didn't read the book. And the movie was fine. Prince Caspian was more fun. You'll have to trust me.
[00:03:32] Speaker A: I will have to trust you. I absolutely will have to trust you.
[00:03:36] Speaker B: Austin Arminio said it's narrow.
[00:03:39] Speaker A: I think it might be Armino.
[00:03:41] Speaker B: Armino. Oh, you're right. There's not an extra. There's not a second I in it. Austin Armino said it's narrow. But I'm going to say the movie, the book was never one of my faves of the series and it suffered from kind of just being random events stitched together on a journey. I get the movie wanting to give it more of an overarching villain slash quest. Also, I think they were setting up with the Green Mist and the White Witch, the villain of the next book, the lady of the Green Girdle, who, due to some lines and statements made by the author, people have a fan theory was the White Witch. As in the theory is so common in the fandom I had to actually double check it isn't confirmed canon.
[00:04:24] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:04:25] Speaker B: I'm gonna be honest, I remember like nothing about the Silver Chair.
[00:04:30] Speaker A: Because you've read all the books.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: I have read all of the books.
[00:04:32] Speaker A: Obviously haven't read the ones that aren't movie related in a while.
[00:04:36] Speaker B: Well, and the later ones, like I don't remember. I know I didn't like the Last Battle. Yeah, I remember when I read it, you said that I like, don't particularly remember liking the Silver Chair all much either. So they're not ones that I like revisited, you know, the way I would revisit like the kind of core ones that I really liked.
[00:04:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:57] Speaker B: So I really like, don't remember anything about the Silver Chair.
[00:05:01] Speaker A: Gotcha. Just for our audience both, if we sound weird because both of us have been sick, we're not anymore. But we're.
[00:05:08] Speaker B: We both have.
[00:05:08] Speaker A: We still have like the leftover sinus stuff.
[00:05:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Some kind of flu or something similar.
[00:05:14] Speaker A: Yeah. So we sound a bit weird, but we're. We're back to like 95.
We just sound awful.
[00:05:23] Speaker B: Our next comment was from Cottonwood Steve. Steve from Arizona. No more.
[00:05:29] Speaker A: Yes, Cottonwood Steve now.
[00:05:31] Speaker B: And Steve said. Ah yes. Back to the Chronicles of Narnia, my childhood jam. While I am just a casual fan, I did enjoy the Voyage of the Dawn Treader and the weird energy it presented. They all have kind of weird energy. To be fair, the only one that I think doesn't have weird energy is the lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. The rest of them are pretty weird.
I consider this my third favorite of the series, behind the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, and A Horse and His Boy. I honestly didn't want to see this film due to some of my disappointment with Prince Caspian. These days. I wait for the series, which might be a better way to visualize this book. And yes, it is weird. An atheist likes these books. I can still get a secular appreciation for the story, at least either way. I'm sure I'm one of the few who believes the only books worth turning into movies are the first two, with the rest of the series being standalone stories for me. Either way, another good review.
[00:06:32] Speaker A: We appreciate it. I don't think it's that weird to be an atheist who likes these. I like. There's plenty of media I engage with that I enjoy, that is. And they're at least vaguely religious.
[00:06:41] Speaker B: Mostly just kids fantasy books.
[00:06:43] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the thing. You can read them and get them. Enjoy them as children's fantasy stories without really being all that worried about the religious aspect of it.
[00:06:54] Speaker B: Our next comment was from Kelly Napier, who said, this is my favorite of the Narnia books and the movie is actually pretty good. So it was hard for me to give credit to one over the other, but I ended up choosing the movie. I didn't like the addition of the green mist in the movie, as it seemed like a plot device that wasn't really needed to tell the story. But I did like the addition of the Seven Swords as it gave the audience something very tactile to keep track of our hero's progress throughout the film.
[00:07:23] Speaker A: I didn't mind giving them something to get, like to go get, but other than the Finding the Lords, my issue was the specifically the magic related to the swords. I did not understand what was going on, especially in relation to.
I guess it's Peter's sword that.
[00:07:43] Speaker B: That Edmund has.
[00:07:44] Speaker A: Edmund has.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:46] Speaker A: All that felt really like, what is going on here? But like, I didn't mind them, like, needing to get the swords for some reason. I just think that they then didn't maybe put the most, like, tie the neatest ribbon on that.
[00:07:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's a pretty good idea. It just, to me, felt a little slapdash.
[00:08:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:05] Speaker B: Our next comment was from Kevin Smith, not that one. Who said, I can't decide. As my first introduction to this was a stage show, it was mesmerizing, especially the dragon transformation.
I just wish they would do the Magician's Nephew. A great, if not the best prequel out there.
[00:08:26] Speaker A: Is that another book in the series?
[00:08:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:28] Speaker A: It's so interesting. Everybody has mentioned a different one that they like. I feel like it's fascinating. I wonder if the stage production was a. Like a professional one or like a.
Like a school. You know what I mean? Was there like a.
Was somebody doing Chronicles of Narnia off Broadway or something? You know what I mean? Like, I don't. I have. No, I haven't heard.
[00:08:48] Speaker B: I don't remember. I don't remember.
[00:08:50] Speaker A: I don't remember from the prequel if you mentioned any stage performances or not.
[00:08:53] Speaker B: But I might have just not included it. Cause sometimes the stage performances are so, like, the history of them is so convoluted that I just don't note it. So it's entirely possible there is a professional or officially sanctioned production.
[00:09:12] Speaker A: I guess that's what I'm wondering. Cause I'm sure there have been plenty of high school or middle school plays of Chronicles of Narnia books or whatever. But I was wondering.
[00:09:20] Speaker B: Church group.
[00:09:21] Speaker A: Yeah, stuff like that. I'm wondering if there was an actual paid actors doing a professional performance versus just like, you know. Yeah, Yeah. I don't remember local theater or something.
[00:09:32] Speaker B: I don't really remember much about the Magician's Nephew either. That was not one that, like, particularly captured my attention.
[00:09:39] Speaker A: Is the magician referenced there, the guy from this movie, do you think, or do you.
[00:09:43] Speaker B: No, it's not. Well, I don't remember for sure who the magician is, but the Magician's Nephew is about.
Do you remember in the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, they're staying at this old professor's house.
And then like, at the end of it, they're like, oh, you wouldn't believe the adventure we just had. And he's like, oh, I Don't know. I might. And so the Magician's Nephew is about when he went to Narnia as a kid.
[00:10:09] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:10:10] Speaker B: And our last comment on Patreon was from Nathan, who said I got to go with the movie. If only due to my general distaste for Narnia books. I think they tend to be too filled with heavy handed religious allegory at the expense of a coherent story.
This book feels even worse than normal. Like CS had a bunch of unrelated religious parables and didn't even bother to connect them. On the subject of Aslan being another form of the Christian God, I think that is kind of the assumption in all of the books. While I can't speak for all Christians, the uber fundamentalist evangelical Protestant churches that I was raised in never had any issue with it. As a young Christian reading this, I found it reasonable because it dodges problems with the Bible's statements about one true God and having no other gods before him. I worried a lot about this at the time in fictional worlds because I was convinced that this was an immutable truth that had to carry over even in fiction.
[00:11:12] Speaker A: Huh. Interesting.
[00:11:14] Speaker B: I don't know if you can find that. I guess that is like, if that's something that concerns you. Yeah, I guess that is kind of an interesting way to sidestep that. Like, oh yeah, there's. There's like a God in this fantasy world. But don't worry because he's actually literally Jesus.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: Jesus. Yeah, I guess that's interesting.
[00:11:35] Speaker B: On a related note, since we're clearly meant to see Eustace's recovery from Dragon Hood as a conversion story, does this count in our world? I feel like believing in a talking lion is very different from faith in the much less visible Christian God.
[00:11:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:50] Speaker B: I would also. Can anyone sail off the end of the world to Aslan's country and thus go to heaven? Like, could the white witch do it?
[00:12:00] Speaker A: It is a way in which I find a lot of these Christian allegories fail, at least in my opinion, or maybe not fail, but that I find them interesting, I don't know, is that they're often like this. For instance, like Nathan's saying here that the thing that is the equivalent of Jesus that they have to believe in is a literal talking lion that they've met physically, like numerous times and like interacted with. And they have to have faith in that versus Right.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: Much easier.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: The real world version of that, which.
[00:12:32] Speaker B: Is a tangible talking lion that you've like climbed on his back.
[00:12:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I don't. It's not really the same as, you know, the version of Jesus that you're asked to believe in in our world.
[00:12:46] Speaker B: But, you know, it's interesting also about. Can anyone sail off the end of the world? I would assume not. Because when they, when, when they get there, Aslan is there.
[00:12:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:58] Speaker B: So I just presume that if anybody showed up who wasn't allowed in, he would just be there to, like, stop them.
[00:13:04] Speaker A: Or that they couldn't make it up. The weird wall thing, the weird wave.
[00:13:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:09] Speaker A: Like, they could try, but it just wouldn't let him in. And it would be like, impossible to. You know what I mean? Like.
[00:13:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:13] Speaker A: I imagine that acts as some sort of barrier.
[00:13:18] Speaker B: Actually. Can't remember if that wave is in the book or not.
[00:13:23] Speaker A: Probably not. But I imagine there's some sort of partition or something. Right? There's gotta be something.
[00:13:30] Speaker B: Probably. I don't remember.
[00:13:34] Speaker A: Huh? There's gotta be something at the end. Like when they.
[00:13:38] Speaker B: Well, they go, like, off the end, off the edge.
[00:13:41] Speaker A: Oh, it's like at the end of a cliff.
[00:13:43] Speaker B: Well, it's like the edge of the world. Cause it's like a flat. Narnia is like a flat world.
[00:13:48] Speaker A: Right.
And then does it describe what happens to them once they do go, like. Well, like, at the end, when Reepicheep goes off, do they just, like. Does he just, like, sail into the distance?
[00:13:58] Speaker B: Like, what, do you want me to go get the book?
[00:14:00] Speaker A: Kinda, yeah.
[00:14:01] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. There is a wave.
[00:14:04] Speaker A: There is a wave, like, wall. Okay.
[00:14:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Reepa Cheep goes up it.
Coral coal went more and more quickly and beautifully. It rushed up the wave side for one split second. They saw its shape, and Reepicheep's on the very top.
[00:14:19] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:14:19] Speaker B: Then it vanished. And since that moment, no one can truly claim to have seen Reepicheep the mouse.
[00:14:24] Speaker A: Okay. So, yeah, I imagine then that the wave is, like, impenetrable unless you have, like, a. You know, you've accepted Aslan into your heart or whatever.
[00:14:32] Speaker B: Right. Like, I imagine how that works.
[00:14:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:36] Speaker B: Continuing with Nathan's comment here, final random thoughts. I appreciate in the book that the crew initially decide not to enter the Dark island, but are basically shamed into it by Reepicheep, who calls them cowards, only to realize immediately upon entry that they were right in the first. And hightailing it back out. Ramendu feels a lot like a Gandalf type figure who descends from the heavens to take human form. He and the sorcerer from the island of the Duffelpuds both feel like a Lot like the wizards in Lord of the Rings lore.
[00:15:08] Speaker A: I would agree. Whatever they are, I can't remember the name. Yeah, Valar or what.
Probably wrong on that.
[00:15:15] Speaker B: But I know CS And JRR knew each other, so I wonder if one was inspired by the other. For the record, this book was published two years before the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
[00:15:26] Speaker A: Oh, was it? Interesting. I for some reason thought Lord of the Rings was before.
[00:15:31] Speaker B: Not according to Nathan's comment.
I have to fact check that.
[00:15:36] Speaker A: Sorry, Maiar Gandalf is not a Valar. He's a Maiar. He's a lesser angelic being who served the Valar. So that's. I. Yeah. And I was I mentioned in the episode. I couldn't remember if the Grey Havens is the place where they go or the place they leave from. And it's the place they leave from. I always get that confused in my head. The Grey Havens is like heaven. I think it's called Havens or something. But Grey Havens is the port city that they leave from to go to the elf afterlife.
[00:16:08] Speaker B: No, that's right. Voyage of the Dawn Treader was published in 1952 and the Fellowship of the Ring was published in 1954.
[00:16:20] Speaker A: Well, there you go. And yeah, I, I. Because I didn't. They famously, like, write each other a lot and like.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: Yeah, they were like. They were friends. Yeah.
[00:16:28] Speaker A: Yeah. So I'm sure they were like sharing notes.
[00:16:30] Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely. They were like, there. I find their friendship really interesting. Not that I've like, read about it extensively or anything, but, like friends who didn't always agree on everything, but still, like, respected, respected each other and valued each other's perspectives.
And Nathan's last note here was CS Lewis doesn't even bother to give Rathmandu's daughter a name, which is pretty shitty. Even when he talks about her marrying Caspian and becoming the mother of the royal line of Narnia, he just calls her Ramendu's daughter.
[00:17:06] Speaker A: It's particularly funny because the movie gives her a name like Lily, Andal or.
[00:17:10] Speaker B: Something, which is a particularly Lord of the Tolkien esque name.
[00:17:15] Speaker A: Elvish sounding name. Yeah.
[00:17:18] Speaker B: Yeah, that is funny. Lewis does not, I think, get enough flack for how he treats his female characters. He should get more.
[00:17:26] Speaker A: At least he's got female characters. Am I right? Suck on that, J.R. tolkien.
[00:17:33] Speaker B: Talking head.
[00:17:36] Speaker A: Mostly joking, but all right.
[00:17:38] Speaker B: Over on Facebook, we had two votes for the book and two for the movie. And Miladin Kulik said, I rewatched the first two movies, listened to the audiobook of the third book and watched the adaptation for this episode. You did more than we did.
[00:17:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:56] Speaker B: Ultimately, I prefer the movie over the book. One reason for this is that towards the end of the book, Caspian turns into a rather whiny character, lamenting his inability to cross over Endar realm. Additionally, the conversation about Narnia being flat while the real world is round is intriguing, but it shows Caspian's night and believing our world is more exciting merely because it has a different shape.
[00:18:20] Speaker A: He's psyched about a globe Earth. He's like, I want to go see.
[00:18:23] Speaker B: I want to go see the round Earth.
I will just say in defense of Caspian because I think that this is something that's easy to lose when you're watching the movies and he's being played by 28 year old Ben Barnes. Is that Caspian is literally a child.
[00:18:40] Speaker A: Oh, really?
[00:18:40] Speaker B: In the books?
[00:18:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:41] Speaker B: He's like in Prince Caspian, he's 13.
[00:18:43] Speaker A: Oh. So in this one.
[00:18:45] Speaker B: And then in this one he'd be like, yeah, 15, 16. Like he is. He's a child king.
[00:18:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. No, in the movies he's like a 30 year old almost.
[00:18:53] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah. I do think it is, like I said, easy to lose sight of that when you're watching Ben Barnes play him, but he is like a literal child.
[00:19:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:04] Speaker B: Eustace, both in the book and in the movie, is portrayed as an annoying, loudmouth bully, Though he becomes more likable by the end. Will Poulter's performance in the movie perfectly captured this character.
[00:19:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I thought he was great.
[00:19:16] Speaker B: One aspect I appreciated in the book was when Eustace becomes a dragon, we get to hear his inner thoughts about his loneliness and misery and his desire to reunite with his companions. I also liked when he returned to his human form and the conversation with Edmund, who remarks, you were just a bully, I was a traitor. I wish that moment had made it into the movie.
[00:19:38] Speaker A: So is that Edmund. Edmund saying that to him? Like, yeah, like you just. Yeah, you were a jerk. But like, I like.
[00:19:44] Speaker B: I like, sold my family out.
[00:19:46] Speaker A: Yeah. For candy. Yeah.
[00:19:49] Speaker B: I preferred how the movie depicted the moment when they discover Eustace as a dragon with words written on the ground and fire. And I liked that he remained in dragon form longer than just a couple of pages. Overall, it was a tough decision, but I ultimately leaned more towards the movie.
[00:20:06] Speaker A: Fair enough.
[00:20:07] Speaker B: We didn't have any comments on Instagram, but we did have five votes for the book and one for the movie.
And over on Goodreads, we had one listener who couldn't decide and that listener was Mikko who said Miko actually did leave. I don't know what Goodreads is about because I like double checked that and they're. Yeah, there was comment for Bridget Jones's Diary, but it like it wasn't there. Interesting when I looked at it.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: Well, our apologies, Mikko, for missing that.
[00:20:38] Speaker B: But this time Mikko said because I hadn't read them before, I went through the first three books of the Narnia series and re listened to your episodes about them. Honestly, Prince Caspian. The book might actually have some memory altering properties.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: The movie must too. By extension.
[00:20:56] Speaker B: Despite finishing it the same day I listened to your episode, I kept going. Did that really happen in the book? During it?
I don't like these books. I think it's my inner Tolkien speaking, but I do not like the mishmash of stuff that is Narnia.
[00:21:12] Speaker A: Look, that's the vibe I get from watching the movies that they don't appeal to me as much because they don't feel as well realized as the Lord of the Rings universe does. Their criticism, I will say I just want to stress I am only doing that from having watched the movies. So it's a little bit different, but.
[00:21:28] Speaker B: The books are pretty much the same.
It's basically everything CS Lewis thought was fun.
[00:21:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is nothing wrong with that. It just, I don't know, I don't find it as satisf. Like I said, as satisfying.
[00:21:39] Speaker B: And I do think, and people can feel free to disagree with me.
I think that the Narnia books are really served from discovering them as a child.
[00:21:51] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean they're clearly also intended for younger audiences than Lord of the Rings. So it's like really not that, you know, it is fair to say, like, yes, this is. They're meant for different audiences. Lord of the Rings is not meant for like, you know, 8 to 12 year olds or whatever. It's meant for a little bit older at least than that.
[00:22:10] Speaker B: Migo went on to say, when anything can happen, nothing feels that special and any conflict is resolved with a Leo ex machina. Yeah. I mean he's God.
[00:22:21] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, look, Lord of the Rings does have its fair share of like, well, the eagles show up and save the day. It's not like that never happens. But.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: I totally understand the film's decision to keep Eustace as a dragon for longer and moving scenes around round to combine the sea serpent attack and the dark place into an action scene for the end. It might make the movie messy, but I think I enjoy it as Much though maybe in different ways than the half a dozen entirely self contained islands like Brian. Until this point I thought Aslan was Jesus or was like Jesus or a Jesus stand in. I cannot really put into words how weird Aslan is. Literally Jesus makes these stories. It's like they turn from actual books into Bible fanfic.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: I'm glad somebody else. I don't know how to express how weird that is to me and I just. It feels so strange like yeah, like you said Bible fanfic but intended to be taken seriously. I don't know. I find it so weird that. Yeah. That he literally is Jesus of our world. It's just very strange to me.
[00:23:33] Speaker B: And Mikko rounded out his thoughts saying, I have to call this a tie. The messiness of the movie evens out the better arc for Eustace.
[00:23:42] Speaker A: That's fair enough.
[00:23:45] Speaker B: And then we did have a comment on YouTube this time. Not a vote really, but just a comment.
User cg6m s3xc8x sounds like a made.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: Up person, but they wrote a real comment, so.
[00:24:04] Speaker B: And they said I'm closer to the uk And I think Eustace's parents were meant to be secular modern people instead of religious. Windows open and special armor undergarments. Was observing germ theory and cleanliness over tradition. Same for smoking, drinking and meat being bad for you?
[00:24:22] Speaker A: Yeah, that's fair.
[00:24:23] Speaker B: I guess that makes perfect sense in context.
[00:24:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I still, I don't know. I just don't know enough about that time period to know like what that movement looked like and like what they're. Yeah, I don't know. I just don't know anything about it. But I can buy that they weren't necessarily religious or whatever. Totally, totally buy that. There was like a sort of a secular like.
[00:24:42] Speaker B: Right. Yeah, well. And I think that makes perfect sense of like something that somebody like C.S. lewis would be a little like salty sour about.
[00:24:50] Speaker A: Right? Absolutely.
[00:24:51] Speaker B: The book eked out a win despite a lot of the comments disagreeing with my final verdict. And it had nine votes to the movie six plus three listeners who couldn't decide.
[00:25:02] Speaker A: There you go. Thank you all. That was a ton of fun feedback. Really appreciate when we get lots of fun comments like that. Always fun to talk about and see what people have to say about the stuff we cover. Katie, it's time to preview Horton Hears a who. The book.
Hello?
The creators of Ice Age take you into a world beyond your imagination.
[00:25:29] Speaker B: Hello?
[00:25:29] Speaker A: Who's there? This is the mayor. I don't exactly know how to tell you this but you're living on a speck. Seriously, who is this? Is this Bert from accounting? Jim Carrey. There are people on this speck?
Absurd. And they have a mayor who has 96 daughters and one son named JoJo, who all share a bathroom, whatever that is. Steve Carell, Dr. LaRue. If.
[00:25:54] Speaker B: If our world were, say, a tiny.
[00:25:56] Speaker A: Speck, how would we know? Well, we'd have inexplicable tremors, dramatic changes in the weather. And if we didn't achieve stability, our.
[00:26:07] Speaker B: World is headed for disaster.
[00:26:10] Speaker A: Oh, we're doomed.
[00:26:11] Speaker B: Horton Hears a Who is a 1954 children's book written and illustrated by Theodor Seuss Geisel under the pen name Dr. Seuss.
This is the second Seuss book to feature Horton the Elephant. Indeed it is, with the first being 1940s Horton hatches the egg. That Horton is always getting himself into situations.
The who's would also later reappear in 1957's how the Grinch Stole Christmas, which we also covered on this show.
[00:26:43] Speaker A: Yes, we have specifically the Jim Carrey version, right?
[00:26:46] Speaker B: Yes. And we covered the Illumination one. Illumination one, A bonus episode.
[00:26:52] Speaker A: But we didn't do the one, the classic animated one, because it's like just the book.
[00:26:56] Speaker B: Yeah, it's basically just the text from the book set to animation. We did not cover that. The book's main theme and one of the recurring phrases throughout it, a person's a person, no matter how small, was Geisel's reaction to his visit to Japan in 1953. This is gonna get real weird. Hold onto your hat.
[00:27:21] Speaker A: I didn't know where that sentence was going. And that.
[00:27:24] Speaker B: I actually. I did not know this either before I started researching this. So the Wikipedia article for this book states that Geisel, quote, harbored strong anti Japan sentiments before and during World War II. Which actually might be an understatement.
[00:27:42] Speaker A: Yeah, right. Wasn't he famously.
[00:27:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So Geisel was the chief editorial cartoonist for the New York magazine PM from 1940 to 1948. And during that time, and like, particularly during the war, he cranked out some 400 ish political propaganda cartoons, many of which could only be described as breathtakingly racist. Famously, a lot of famously very, very, very racist political cartoons were just very racist and in particular towards Japanese people and Japanese American citizens as well. And then in 1953, Geisel visited Japan, where he met and talked with, obviously, people there, and as well as witnessed the horrific aftermath of the bombing of Hiroshima.
And supposedly, according to these sources that I found that trip had a profound effect on him and would change his views dramatically.
And he went on to write Horton Hears a who as an allegory for the American post war occupation of Japan, striving to relay the message that the Japanese should be valued equally, especially in the stressful post war era.
[00:29:00] Speaker A: Interesting. I'm interested to read or to. Well, I'm not gonna read the book, but to watch the movie through the lens of viewing it as a allegory for Americans post war occupation of Japan. Because my memory of the book, that doesn't really come across. But I also read it when I was 6 and had no idea about. Or when I was a little kid. So I had no idea about the were occupation of Japan.
[00:29:26] Speaker B: I am also interested to look at it through that lens because it's not a lens that I was really aware of at any point.
[00:29:33] Speaker A: And I guess the reason I'm interested to look at it through that is to see like, would anybody get that from this? Unless he said it? Like, would you get. I mean, there's obviously a message from my memory of like, you know, like valuing people regardless of the background or whatever, that kind of thing. But, but, but specifically relating it to the. Again, Japan, post war and like the. I don't know. That's interesting.
[00:29:59] Speaker B: I don't know. I guess we'll see.
[00:30:01] Speaker A: We'll see.
[00:30:02] Speaker B: So Horton Hears a who is written in.
[00:30:07] Speaker A: This is made up. You made these words?
[00:30:09] Speaker B: No, I didn't make them up.
Anapaestic or anapest? I don't know.
[00:30:16] Speaker A: I would say anapestic.
[00:30:17] Speaker B: Predator. The second word is tetrameter.
[00:30:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I would say anapestic.
[00:30:21] Speaker B: Yeah, anapestic. Tet.
Like most other Dr. Seuss books. That's kind of his whole deal.
Unlike some of his books, however, although I don't know that I would necessarily agree, I think many of his books have a strong moral.
[00:30:37] Speaker A: Yeah, most of them, at least.
[00:30:38] Speaker B: A lot of the more memorable ones don't. Some of them are just kind of like fun nonsense. Yeah. But I would argue that a lot of his books have a strong moral message. But maybe in particular this one, again, a person's a person, no matter how small, which author Thomas French identifies as, quote, universal, multinational, multi ethnic, in a word, equality. So kind of getting into some more like review poll quotes. Ben Witherington of the Asbury theological seminary applauded Dr. Seuss for his work in the characterization of Horton as the elephant fights to show the other animals that even the, quote, small people are deserving of respect and love.
And then Peter Tungat, writing for National Review, lauded the book's intricate and thoughtful rhymes and appealing illustrations that defined Seuss's work. In recent decades. The book has been adopted by the United States anti choice movement, with some interpreting a person's A person, no matter how small, as being an allegory for a human fetus.
This interpretation, however, has been pretty roundly criticized by Audrey Geisel, the widow of the author, as well as Carl Zobel, one of the attorneys for Dr. Seuss Enterprises. And Geisel particularly. Audrey Geisel has stated that she doesn't like people to hijack Dr. Seuss characters or material to front their own points of view.
[00:32:11] Speaker A: I mean, yeah, sure, but like, I don't. It's not really anything you can do about. I don't know, like, I would disagree with their interpretation of it and because I disagree with them morally, but, like, I don't know, Death of the author. They can interpret it that way, I guess, if they want. I don't know.
[00:32:28] Speaker B: I think she's also known for being kind of overly protective of his estate. So there's that kind of factor as well.
[00:32:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, by all means, if people are like, printing out Horton Hears a who stuff and like, you know, like violating copyright to push abhorring moral.
[00:32:46] Speaker B: Stands, shouldn't I think a lot of people have.
[00:32:48] Speaker A: Sure. Then I, by all means get after it. I just. I don't know, I guess there's just something about the, like hijacking the characters to front their own points of view. It's like. But I don't know, it would be hijacking his.
I'm trying to think of it like some of. I don't know, Dr. Seuss had a lot of shit opinions about stuff. And I could hijack his cartoons he drew that are based on his shitty opinions to promote my own point of view that in contrary to his shitty opinion.
And I don't think there's anything wrong. I don't know. I don't know what I'm saying. I just. Yeah, I guess I agree. It's just something about the way that's worded just doesn't sit right with me.
[00:33:26] Speaker B: But of that statement, she's kind of. My understanding of it. I think she's kind of a controversial figure. Audrey Fair. I also don't think she's alive anymore.
[00:33:39] Speaker A: No, I believe she passed.
[00:33:40] Speaker B: I believe she did pass.
[00:33:42] Speaker A: Pretty sure.
[00:33:43] Speaker B: But I. My understanding of it was that she was known for being like, pretty overly protective.
[00:33:49] Speaker A: 20, 18.
[00:33:50] Speaker B: She passed of his estate. Yeah, but in this instance, I also agree.
[00:33:57] Speaker A: Yeah, like I said, in this instance, I agree. So it's like, I don't know.
[00:34:01] Speaker B: And my final note here is that, aside from the 2008 film that we will be discussing, the book was also Adapted as a 1970 animated television special, which I seem to recall being scared of as a kid.
[00:34:15] Speaker A: I don't remember watching that.
[00:34:17] Speaker B: I. I watched the Grinch, like, every year I read about it. But when I was looking it up, I went and saw some, like, screen caps of it. And we definitely watched it, like, in the library, like, during library time at some point when I was in school. And I do remember thinking that it was scary. Horton Hears a who also provides the main plot for the 2000 Broadway musical Seussical.
[00:34:41] Speaker A: Oh, I don't think I knew that. That it was like the main plot of Seussical. Interesting. All right, it's time now to learn a little bit more about Horton Hears a who, the film.
[00:34:51] Speaker B: I want that clover destroyed.
[00:34:54] Speaker A: I will devour clover.
Then I regurgitate it. Then I'm gonna devour it second time. So two times. Devour.
All right, fat boy, you want some of that? Keep watching the skies. I just know he's gonna jump out somewhere. Hello, Chess, mate.
[00:35:16] Speaker B: This is where we get off.
[00:35:19] Speaker A: Cool line. Usually I can't think of those things till later. So, JoJo, what's the word?
[00:35:25] Speaker B: Sweetheart, you need to go to bed. Daddy's having a breakdown.
[00:35:29] Speaker A: 20Th century cross. Even though you can't hear or see them at all, a person's a person, no matter how small. That's my code, my motto.
It's just a straight plummet to certain death. Horton Hears a Hoop. Don't worry, citizens of Whoville, I'm light as a feather. Horton Hears a Who is a 2008 film directed by Jimmy Hayward, known for Free Birds, that movie Shelby always talks about.
[00:35:55] Speaker B: Shelby will be happy to hear that.
[00:35:57] Speaker A: Jonah Hex. And then also he was an animator on Finding Nemo Monsters, Inc. Toy Story 2, Bug's Life, Toy Story, some of the other. That stuff during that era.
And it was also directed by Steve Martino, who directed the Peanuts movie and Ice Continental Drift. The film was written by Cinco Paul and Ken Dario, the writing duo who. No longer a writing duo. They've split up, I've since heard.
But they wrote Bubble Boy, The Santa Clause 2, Despicable Me, the Lorax, which we've covered. Despicable Me Too, the Secret Life of pets, Despicable Me 3, and Schmigadoon, among other things. But yeah, we've done a couple of their. Yeah, like I said, Lorax.
[00:36:36] Speaker B: And we also really like Schmigadoon.
[00:36:38] Speaker A: Yes, we've talked. Yeah. And they actually. They split up during Schmigadin. Apparently it was amicable.
[00:36:42] Speaker B: Why is that? Why Schmigadoon.
[00:36:44] Speaker A: That's not why. That's not why it didn't come back. They he. One of them left during. After the first season.
The one of the other ones. One I can't remember who. I think Cinco Paul kept working on Schmigadoon. Apparently it's amicable. They do still do like a podcast together. It's not like they hate each other or anything. They just stopped working together. It sounds like the film stars Jim Carrey, Steve Carell, Carol Burnett, Will Arnett, Seth Rogen, Dan Fogler, Isla Fisher, Jonah Hill, Amy Poehler, Jamie Presley, Jesse McCartney, Josh Flitter, Niecy Nash, Colleen O'Shaughnessy, Joey King, Bill Farmer and Selena Gomez, among others.
[00:37:23] Speaker B: That is an aggressively 2008 cast.
[00:37:26] Speaker A: Yes. And just a lot of. A lot of people.
[00:37:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:30] Speaker A: It has a 79% on Rotten Tomatoes, a 71% on Metacritic, and a 6.8 out of 10 on IMDb. It made 298 million against a budget of 85 million.
So getting into some production stuff, Cat in the Hat was such a gigantic failure, which we have also done, Cat in the Hat, that Audrey Geisel said, no more live action adaptations. We're not doing that anymore. Then In March of 2005, Blue sky was finishing up their film Robots. Blue sky are people who did Ice Age movies and other stuff. They were finishing up robots and they approached Geisel about adapting Horton Hears a who as an animated film. And the art director from Robots, Steve Martino, and one of the story consultants, Jimmy Hayward, the two guys I mentioned that directed this movie, created a model for Horton and did animation tests to show their ideas to Geisel, who agreed and they reached a seven figure deal for the rights to the book as well as the rights to Horton Hatches the Egg.
So Geisel would end up getting an executive producer credit on the film. And she was involved in the production process, giving the studio access to her husband's archive and lots of notes and drawings and all kinds of stuff. So she was more involved, from what I've heard, what it sounds like on this film than some of the other ones, because she was like that Cat in the Hat nightmare can't happen again.
One of the things the studio wanted to be very conscious of is they wanted to differentiate Horton from the mammoths that they had just done in all of their Ice Age movies that they'd been doing. So one of the ways they did that was by having Horton stand and walk upright sometimes so that he.
[00:39:03] Speaker B: That sounds creepy.
[00:39:04] Speaker A: Differentiates him from the. Yeah, the mammoths in the Ice Age movies.
Now some IMDb trivia fun facts.
The first portrait that the mayor in the film shows to JoJo is a who style caricature of Dr. Seuss.
Originally, Jamie Lee Curtis was rumored to play the sour Kangaroo and recorded half the dialogue, but supposedly got into creative differences with the storyboard. This is what IMDb trivia says, which I don't even know what that means. Creative differences with the storyboard, with the storyboard arguing with the storyboard. I don't know. Again, IMDb trivia. Take it with a grain of salt. It's I think there are true things in here, but it's mainly just for fun. Yeah.
And as of 2021, this is the only film starring Seth Rogen to be rated G by the mpaa. All the rest of his movies to date were rated PG or higher. And based on two minutes of research, that appears to still be true from what I could find all of like the he's in all the like Lion King movies and stuff, but those are all pg.
[00:40:02] Speaker B: So interesting.
[00:40:04] Speaker A: Then getting to some reviews. Kirk Honeycutt of the Hollywood Reporter called it, quote, a delightful, a delight brimming with colorful, elastic characters and bountiful wit. End quote. For Variety, John Anderson said, the real stars of the movie are the animators who imbue even the overgrowth in Horton's jungle with a certain floppy Seussishness.
Carino Chicano for the LA Times said, quote, the sad thing. The sad thing is that this Horton doesn't stick by its central message, that every voice counts the way Horton sticks to the who's it pretends to, but the sincerity is just too scary to fully commit to. End quote. So Karina had some negative things to say.
For Time magazine, Richard Corliss wrote, quote, the movie proves a funny, elevating ride that should beguile the young and keep their parents or grandparents enthralled too, for once. The G rating stands for glorious in end quote. And Ebert did not review this film. He was still alive at the time, but for whatever reason didn't review this film. But I do have a Roper review who was his kind of critic partner after Siskel passed away. Richard Roeper did not like the film saying, quote, the Animation's okay. I didn't like Jim Carrey. I thought he was a distraction. End quote.
[00:41:18] Speaker B: Does Jim Carrey play Horton?
[00:41:20] Speaker A: I don't know. No, I think Steve Carell plays. It's either Jim Carrey or Jim Carrey plays Horton. Steve Carell plays Ned. Ned McDodd, whoever that is.
So, yes, Jim Carrey does play Horton.
[00:41:34] Speaker B: That sounds like a who name.
Ned McDodd.
[00:41:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I imagine he is. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know anything about the movie and I haven't read the book since I'm old. Little tiny kids, so I don't know.
Before we wrap up, we want to remind you, you can do us a favor by heading over to Facebook, Instagram, threads, Goodreads, Blue sky guy, I think that's all of them. Follow us there, interact. We'd love to hear what you have to say about all, you know, the podcast in general, but also every movie we cover. All that kind of good stuff. You get the idea. You can also help us out by heading over to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you listen, drop us a five star rating, write us a nice little review that helps out and you can Support
[email protected] ThisFilmIsLit like all the patrons we mentioned at the top of the show, Katie, where can people watch Horton Hears a whole?
[00:42:18] Speaker B: Well, as always, you can check with your local library.
[00:42:21] Speaker A: Feels likely they will have this one.
[00:42:22] Speaker B: Or a local video rental store if you've still got one.
Otherwise this is not streaming with a subscription anywhere that I found. But you can rent it for around 4 bucks from Amazon, Apple TV, YouTube or Fandango at home.
[00:42:39] Speaker A: All right. Yeah, no, I'm interested to check this one.
What's the other?
Did they did they did the Lorax, right?
[00:42:47] Speaker B: The Lorax was I think, is it the Lorax, not illumination?
[00:42:51] Speaker A: Oh, you might be right. It might be elimination.
So yeah, I don't know. The Lorax was fine.
I don't remember enough about this to say I'm excited to view it in the framework of a post war analysis of occupied Japan. But we'll see.
I don't really. I don't know if I have the. The education to view it through that lens, but I'm gonna do my damnedest. But yeah, it should be, should be fun. We'll be back in one week's time to talk about Horton Hears a who. Until that time, guys, gals, non binary pals, everybody else, keep reading books, keep watching movies and keep being aw.
[00:43:36] Speaker B: Sa.
