Episode Transcript
[00:00:09] Speaker A: On this week's prequel episode, we follow up on our death tier listener polls and preview the School for Good and Evil.
Hello and welcome back to this film. And slowly talk about movies that are based on books. It's another prequel episode. Oh, plenty to talk about.
Let's get right into it with our patron shoutouts. I put up with you because your father and mother were our finest patrons. That's why. No new patrons this week. But we do have our Academy Award winning patrons. And they are.
Nicole Goble, Harpo Rat, Team Blue Dress, Vic Apocalypse, Mathilde Cottonwood, Steve. Teresa Schwartz, Ian from Wine Country, Kelly Napier, Gratch Justgratch. Shelby says watch Fringe.
That darn skag and V. Frank. Thank you all very much for your continued support.
Have you never watched Fringe? Have you?
[00:01:05] Speaker B: No, I haven't.
[00:01:07] Speaker A: Me neither.
I feel like I need to watch. I feel like I'm not allowed to watch Fringe before I watch the X Files because I think they're. I think they're similar type shows. I've actually, for a while been ruminating on us watching X Files.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: That feels like a good thing to start. Like when we're done with Xena, maybe.
[00:01:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, it could be. Yeah, that would be good. Yeah. We are actually getting close to the end. Well, relatively. I think we have two seasons left, but. Yeah. Cause I've been wanting to. I've never watched the X Files. I've always heard great things about it and I feel like the Fringe is a similar style show from what I know. I know very little about it, but I think it's about people investigating paranormal stuff, I think is the idea. So, anyways, may have to watch X Files first, Shelby, but maybe one day. I've also heard good things about Fringe. Just not as many good things as I've heard about the X Files, so.
All right, thank you all again for your continued support. Katie, it's time to see what people had to say about Maze Runner, the death cure.
[00:02:09] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, that's just like your opinion, man on Patreon. We had five votes for the movie and zero for the book.
[00:02:22] Speaker A: Patrons have good taste.
[00:02:26] Speaker B: Charlene said, I have no horse in this race. But when you started talking about philosophy and the end justifying the means, all I could think of was the Season 1 scene from the Good Place.
Eleanor. We're doing one small murdery thing for a bigger, better reason. The end justifies the means, Chidi. Do you know who said that, Eleanor? Was it someone nice and great like Oprah?
[00:02:53] Speaker A: Yeah, it's good. It's a good exchange.
Good Place is one of my favorite shows of all time. It's fantastic.
[00:03:00] Speaker B: Also, if you don't know that phrase is paraphrased from Machiavelli.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Yes. So yeah.
[00:03:09] Speaker B: Not someone nice and great.
[00:03:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:12] Speaker B: And I think we could probably debate Oprah there.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: I was about to say we'd get into the debate about Oprah. That's a yeah.
[00:03:20] Speaker B: Our next comment was from Kelly Napier, who said my vote was never not going to be the movie, the property that is so superior to the source material in every single way. But that's not what I want to talk about.
[00:03:34] Speaker A: All right, using the soapboxes.
Where are we going on this one?
[00:03:39] Speaker B: I hinted at this in one of my comments somewhere, but my favorite scene in the in any of the books is the bowling alley scene with Newtown.
I loved the microcosm of the culture of cranks that still managed to find ways to divide themselves, which is such a commentary on sociology and human nature.
It was the only scene in the third book I found myself wishing was in the movie in some sense.
Also, you both talked about concepts that the movie stole from other movies, and I just want to add two different setups from the cinematic masterpiece Fast 5 to the list.
[00:04:14] Speaker A: I have not seen any of the Fast and furious movies past 5 2.
[00:04:19] Speaker B: I haven't seen any of them. I. I know the premise. Yeah, but I haven't seen.
[00:04:23] Speaker A: I don't even know if saying, you know, the premise is accurate once you get back.
They. They went off the rails past like the third one I had, the second one or whatever.
[00:04:33] Speaker B: Is the premise not still being Fast and Furious?
[00:04:36] Speaker A: Depends on what you mean by that. But because like the first movie is like undercover cops racing car, like doing like an undercover sting in like the underground racing circuit.
But beyond that it starts getting more and more ridiculous. But I do not know. Yeah, I say that I don't actually know. My understanding is that the premises get more and more insane as the series went on.
[00:05:00] Speaker B: Cool. In the 2011 movie, there is not only the rescue of a prisoner from a prison bus, but there's also an elaborate train heist. This 2018 movie just took those two scenes and made them into one.
My final thought on the entire book series and the movies as well is that they may have been better served as a duology instead of a trilogy.
[00:05:22] Speaker A: I can see that there was definitely too much.
[00:05:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:25] Speaker A: Didn't need all that.
[00:05:27] Speaker B: Let the first book and movie stand as they are with the story of the maze itself. Then take the best concepts from the second and third, and put them into one property. Like, we still meet Brenda and Jorge, but spend less time in the Scorch.
[00:05:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I think you could have done that.
[00:05:41] Speaker B: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to collapse into.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:05:47] Speaker A: Perfectly fine.
[00:05:48] Speaker B: And finally, no one asked, but of the three YA dystopian series you've covered, my ranking goes as 1. Hunger Games 2. Divergent, 3. Maze Runner. I would be curious to see how you would rank them.
[00:06:03] Speaker A: I would rank them identically, and I would question anyone who wouldn't.
[00:06:09] Speaker B: I think I would, too.
I feel like the only thing that makes me hesitate a little is that I don't fully remember Divergent.
[00:06:18] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:06:19] Speaker B: And I don't know. I'm assuming that it was not as bad as Maze Runner.
[00:06:25] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:26] Speaker B: But I don't remember.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: I don't know for sure.
[00:06:27] Speaker B: Cause I also remember being, like, totally frustrated and furious.
[00:06:32] Speaker A: Yes, that is true.
[00:06:33] Speaker B: While we were covering Divergent. But I do.
[00:06:35] Speaker A: I have emotional memories of Divergent, but not, like, actual memories.
[00:06:39] Speaker B: I think I would have to, like, go back and listen to our episodes to get a better feel for how I would rank books, too.
[00:06:46] Speaker A: That's fair. I don't know how I would rank them.
[00:06:48] Speaker B: I mean, obviously Hunger Games is at the top.
[00:06:51] Speaker A: Also depends on whether we're going movies or books. Because I think I would put the Maze Runner movies above the Divergent movies.
[00:06:58] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:06:58] Speaker A: But I think I would put the Divergent books above the Maze Runner books. Maybe.
[00:07:02] Speaker B: Maybe.
[00:07:03] Speaker A: Maybe from my memory, very much Hunger Games miles and miles and miles above the other two.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: Because I just. I feel like Divergent and Maze Runner had, like, the books had a lot of very similar issues.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:07:16] Speaker B: Like, so much so that I would need to refresh my memory on Divergent.
[00:07:20] Speaker A: I just. Yeah. And I remember thinking that the movies made a ton of really great changes in Divergent, but I don't remember any of the movies being like this movie. The Maze Runner movie series is like a perfectly fine summer blockbuster action movie series as its own thing. And I would not say the same about Divergent. They're interesting adaptations in the fact that they're much better than the books, but I still don't think they're particularly good. And these movies are at least. The Maze Runner movies are at least. Okay.
[00:07:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:53] Speaker A: Like, they're fun.
[00:07:54] Speaker B: Yeah. The Maze Runner as adaptations, I feel like they're much closer to, like, 50 Shades, where the books were, like, so bad, but then the movies. You're talking about the merging. Yeah, we're talking about Maze Runner. Oh, you're Talking about, like, the books were so bad, but then, like, the movies made such good choices that even though they're not great movies, they're like leaps and bounds ahead of the books.
[00:08:17] Speaker A: I feel that way about Maze Runner and Divergent, but I think Maze Runner as a movie, as standalone, without considering them as adaptations. Just as movies are better movies than the Divergent movies, but both Divergent and Maze Runner are significantly better or similar to 50 Shades in that they are significantly better movies than they are books.
[00:08:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:42] Speaker A: It's just that Maze Runner goes even further by just being like, oh, pretty okay movies. Whereas the Divergent movies, way better than the books. But not like. Still not like, particularly. Because I think the issue is that I think the Maze Runner movies kind of work if you've never read the books. I think, like, if you watch the movies, I think they kind of just work on their own. The Divergent movies are interesting in the same way 50 Shades is that if you've read the book, they're interesting adaptations.
But I don't.
But I don't know how well they work to somebody who had never read the book. Like, I think if you never read the book and watched the Divergent movies, you'd be like, what?
[00:09:22] Speaker B: I don't.
[00:09:23] Speaker A: And I don't think you would enjoy them all that much.
[00:09:25] Speaker B: I don't know how I would judge 50 Shades on that.
[00:09:28] Speaker A: Oh, that too. Yeah. I don't know. I don't. Yeah, I don't. They're just not good movies. So they're different in the sense that they're maybe the worst of these movies compared to Divergent and Maze Runner. But also the books are so bad that even still, even being worse movies than the Divergent movies or the Maze Runner movies, they're still such an improvement from the books.
[00:09:51] Speaker B: Right.
My point in making the.
[00:09:54] Speaker A: I could do this with a graph. If I could draw an infographic, I could make this make sense.
[00:09:59] Speaker B: My point with comparing 50 Shades and Maze Runner was that I remember feeling almost kind of impressed by them by 50 Shades as adaptations. And I felt similarly kind of impressed by Maze Runner as adaptations, but I don't remember feeling impressed by Divergent adaptations.
[00:10:21] Speaker A: I thought we had that same conversation about Divergent.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: We may have.
[00:10:25] Speaker A: I'm pretty sure, like, that was our thing about Divergent was comparing it to 50 shades and being an impressive adaptation, that they managed to make these dog shit books somewhat make sense and be digestible, but not to the same extent. Not as well as maybe maze Runner and 50 Shades did, but similar.
Again, I Think with an infographic, I could show you the ratings of. Because the delta between the books and the movies is greater than on, like, Fifty Shades and Divergent. Or no. And Maze Runner. But the quality of the.
[00:11:06] Speaker B: Okay, I think we're saying the same thing.
[00:11:08] Speaker A: Yes, we're saying a similar thing. Yeah, we are. But my point was, I think, like, I actually kind of want to do this now is to draw, like, bar graphs where it is the quality of, like, a scale of 1 to 10, the score of the books and the movies as bar graphs, where the book score is contained within the bar graph of the movie score. Because all the movie scores would be higher in these series, except for Hunger Games. Not counting those.
And then put those next to each other. So you have 50 shades bar graph with book and movie.
Divergent bar graph, book and movie And Maze Runner bar graph, book and movie. And then you could see the difference of how the books rate against each other and how the movies rate against each other, but also the delta between the book and movie within each of those. Yeah, and then I think it would be.
Anyways, I think we agree.
[00:12:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we do.
Our next comment was from Cottonwood Steve, who said, with a thankful heart, this series is over.
Regrettably, my curiosity has led me to more books in this series, but at least I learned a couple things.
James Dashner never really improved on his storytelling. He might be a huge Battlefield Earth fan. I'm serious about this.
[00:12:28] Speaker A: That wouldn't surprise me.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: And Thomas real name is Steven, which has an interesting religious parallel.
Yeah, the movie was pretty average, but at least it has a pretty good mix of live and CGI elements. The action sequences are legitimately good, and the city scenes look pretty great. Both the inside and outside of the last city.
They actually had a story to stand on and a little bit of character development.
So it's obvious I will choose the movie. Even though Thomas was an idiot and didn't go Team Brenda, Even when they're on the island and repopulation is gonna go down, he still can't let go.
[00:13:05] Speaker A: I don't know if that's true. I think we don't know what his future holds with Brenda. I think we end the. The movie ends the story without showing us that, like, hey, they're gonna be together. But I think.
[00:13:18] Speaker B: I think they probably are.
[00:13:20] Speaker A: They probably are.
Yeah.
[00:13:22] Speaker B: And I would even maybe go ahead. I would even maybe go so far as to say we're supposed to assume that they are.
[00:13:28] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe. Yeah. They don't show us anything from my memory on the island to insinuate that, but I think given the rest of the series up until that point, you could probably kind of think that.
And I think the movie just was very cognizant of not wanting people to feel weird like that. Thomas was just immediately moved, like over Theresa's death and like, all right, I'm gonna go sleep with Brett. You know what I mean? Like, they made it. They wanted to make sure it didn't feel super dismissive of his relationship with Theresa and stuff like that. So I think that's more so why we don't see anything in the movie.
[00:14:04] Speaker B: I'm just going to say this book was an absolute chore to read.
I have to agree with you guys on the haphazard nature of this story's plot, where things just keep changing for the heck of it. The intentional layers of intrigue trying to be plopped on top of each other just made me want to skip to the end. I loved the side quests in the book, like the trip to the Crank palace and the trek into the deep bowels of Denver, but it was all so contrived. The sequence of events was just jarring. Like they have 500 people in the glade and then more than half of them get smashed and killed. Talk about random carnage.
The only good thing about the book, in my opinion, is Thomas made the right choice with Brenda.
I do agree with your sentiment for Theresa. Why did Dashner hate her guts so much? Has to be a story behind that.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know.
[00:14:54] Speaker B: Here's the part where I might give Dashner too much credit. It's kind of cool that Thomas real name is Steven. Not just because I have the same name, but also because it parallels nicely with the story of St. Stephen.
The martyred saint spoke out against the teachings of the Judaic faith of his time, spreading such teachings that Jesus was a prophecy of Moses fulfilled, while also stating God's divine presence existed outside the temples.
Thomas definitely spoke out against the practices of wicked, seeing their pursuit of the cure as the wrong pursuit. Anyway, just a thought.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: Could be.
[00:15:29] Speaker B: Could be, Yeah.
[00:15:30] Speaker A: I mean, isn't Dashner Mormon?
[00:15:31] Speaker B: He's Mormon. I have no idea how into saints they are. I don't know that much about Mormonism.
And yes, I really think Dashner pretty much made a kiddie version of Battlefield Earth, a book I like, but is clearly an inspiration in writing style and plot revelation.
The action is routinely straightforward and the chapter breaks have similar energy to them where one chapter ends and immediately starts right back up in The Next the story is based in Denver. Lead character Johnny Goodboy Tyler is just way too overpowered and smart and twists just keep coming at breakneck speed.
I thought about it after that subtle joke I made last week and started reading the first few chapters again.
I hate to say a hack pulp writer like L. Ron Hubbard could write circles around Dashner, but here we are.
But the weird similarities are there.
I don't know how Dashner conjured up six books from this series and then three more sequel books, but this is the world we live in. I regret suggesting this series.
Yeah, yeah, we were gonna cover it.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: We were gonna. It was coming up whether or not you suggested it.
[00:16:40] Speaker B: Our next comment was from Shelby says watch Fringe. And Shelby said this was easily my fave of the books.
[00:16:47] Speaker A: I agree.
[00:16:48] Speaker B: I wouldn't say the same for the movies. Not enough Maze or Brenda for that. But it was fun and entertaining all the way through. And I liked what they did with Teresa for a two and a half hour movie. I don't have much to complain about.
[00:17:00] Speaker A: You know, I was just thinking, I don't know which I would say of the three movies was like my favorite.
[00:17:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know.
[00:17:07] Speaker A: I liked things in all of them. I think maybe the first one.
[00:17:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say maybe the first.
[00:17:12] Speaker A: One and because I also think the first one was maybe had the most of us. Like, man, this is a good adaptation. Like they did a good job choosing and. Whereas the second and third go kind of so diverge so far from what's in the book that it, you know, it's not as well.
[00:17:29] Speaker B: And I liked that the first movie was kind of contained. I felt like the second and third maybe struggled a little bit with the expanded world and like reigning that into something.
[00:17:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know.
[00:17:44] Speaker B: I really enjoyed Gally getting to be the calm and sensible one in the movie. That was fun.
Credit where credit is due. I thought Dashner did a better job writing the Cranks this time around, but I'm still picking the film.
I loved the city in the movie. I wanted more of it.
[00:18:01] Speaker A: I agree.
[00:18:02] Speaker B: I did wonder why the second movie had Brenda get infected. Especially considering what happens with Newt in this one. I like what they did with it. The plotline with Newt was easily the most effective part of the book. And I thought the actors did a good job too.
[00:18:16] Speaker A: The reason they infected Brendan the second one was to set up the. Because I think the choice of there being an actual cure was intentional. Like that didn't seem like an accident at the end of this One, I feel like they had that plan.
And so Brenda getting infected in the second one and then getting cured by Thomas's blood serum or whatever sets up the fact that blood will cure people.
[00:18:40] Speaker B: They should have called it the blood cure.
[00:18:42] Speaker A: Yeah, that's true. Instead of the death cure.
[00:18:45] Speaker B: If I'd taken notes during the movie, it mostly would have been some variation of I fucking love Brenda every time she shows up. We needed more Brenda in the movie like we get in this final book. I'm happy to be wrong about my ship being endgame. Teresa can die for the pathos. That's fine. She can have that. At least the movies treat her like a real character. Before this episode, I'd heard that the trilogy ends with Thomas deciding to let everyone die and just fucking off somewhere. But now that I've read the book and watched the movie, I wouldn't really say that's accurate. I wouldn't say that's accurate at all. Yeah, the cure in the book doesn't need him anymore. And the movie clearly hints Thomas will go back and save everyone.
[00:19:25] Speaker A: Well, there is no cure in the book.
[00:19:28] Speaker B: True. Yeah.
[00:19:29] Speaker A: It's not that the cure in the book doesn't need him, it's that there isn't one. But in the movie, yeah, they insinuate that he's going to go back and.
[00:19:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm trying to save people.
[00:19:37] Speaker A: Try to save people.
[00:19:40] Speaker B: I didn't even notice your criticism that Dashner struggles to write character relationships in this series compared to another book series I've read that's got a few movies out. This one, this was still so much better. Maybe you'll cover them someday.
[00:19:53] Speaker A: What?
[00:19:54] Speaker B: I don't know what that series is, but if it's got worse character relationships than this one, I'm not looking forward to it.
[00:20:02] Speaker A: Trying to think what other series that's got a few movies out. There's that one. But I always get it confused. I feel like I always got. There's another one that's similar to Maze Runner that I always got confused with it. But then I think, like, maybe that was Divergent, because I confused those all the time. I just like, I googled ya. Movie series and all. It's all ones we've done before, except also Mortal Instruments.
[00:20:27] Speaker B: That could be it.
[00:20:27] Speaker A: Is there multiple of those?
[00:20:30] Speaker B: I don't know.
[00:20:30] Speaker A: I thought there was only one of them.
[00:20:31] Speaker B: I thought there was two.
[00:20:33] Speaker A: Maybe. Maybe there are multiple. Maybe the Mortal Instruments is multiple movies.
And then the other one that popped up is the Darkest Minds. I don't know what that is. I don't either, but it's got Amanda Amandla Stenberg in it.
[00:20:47] Speaker B: Well, I'm sure Shelby will let us know.
[00:20:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: And Shelby's last comment here was. I've said it already, but what are your thoughts on Team Brenda TFIL merchandise?
[00:20:59] Speaker A: We gotta get our own regular merch sorted first.
[00:21:02] Speaker B: That would be like a hell of a series to be making merch for.
[00:21:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:08] Speaker B: Our last comment on Patreon was from Team Blue Dress, who said, I'm gonna start with a quote from the novel in which James Dashner so completely failed to think of a plan that he just gave up at the end.
It struck Thomas suddenly how thoroughly every detail of this game, this experiment, had been thought out.
If I only learned one thing from this summer series, it is that James Dashner is a hack. I obviously have to go with the movie, and I think they did a really good job of making a really enjoyable film series out of absolute trash.
The brain mapping makes absolutely no sense as an explanation of the plot. I'm supposed to believe that escaping a maze and then racing across a desert will create every situation that is needed to map a brain. There is no third test unless it was meant to be the return of their memories.
It gets even worse. We are told that they controlled Chuck, so there was one situation that was so important that they had to individually manipulate multiple people. So it happens to Thomas, but for the most part, it's cool for him to just wander through the tests with no control at all.
Furthermore, didn't Thomas go into the maze of his own volition because he felt bad for the kids in there? Or maybe that was just the movie.
So why was there so much focus on developing him when they didn't even plan for him to be in the maze?
[00:22:34] Speaker A: I don't know. I don't know. I think they did plan for him to be in the maze, but I don't know if it's ever a conclusion.
[00:22:39] Speaker B: I don't know if they ever explained why he and Teresa and Eris decide to go into the maze.
Cause they show us them deciding that, but I can't remember if there's ever any kind of explanation for why they made that decision.
[00:22:54] Speaker A: I feel like there is in the book, but I. I can't remember what it is.
[00:22:59] Speaker B: Yeah, who knows?
A couple other random thoughts from Team Blue Dress, AKA Nathan. The Newt letter setup makes absolutely no sense. Newt says that Thomas will know when to open the letter, and then later, it turns out he's upset that Thomas hasn't opened it. But, like, when was he supposed to.
[00:23:20] Speaker A: I agree with this.
[00:23:21] Speaker B: It seems like Newt meant for Thomas to open it when Newt's condition got worse. But that doesn't really seem to happen. He's obviously sick, but there's no particular moment that makes it seem like he really turned crank.
[00:23:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:33] Speaker B: Also, Newt is going to want Thomas to kill him when his condition gets worse. So why add the extra hurdle of having to open a note and then kill him? Facing a raging crank seems like a bad time to open a letter.
[00:23:45] Speaker A: It makes no sense because it also is just. It feels like the kind of thing Newt would just tell him.
[00:23:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:51] Speaker A: What makes sense is what the movie does, which is it's. You know, I could. I could believe the idea of Newt having a hard time, like, vocally telling Thomas, like, what his friendship meant to him and stuff like that. And, like, being vulnerable with him. That feels like, yes, he would want to do that in a note so that he doesn't have to, like, because he's kind of too embarrassed to do it or whatever, or just doesn't feel like it's the right time or whatever. But a note that says kill me. I feel like Newt would just be. Because he's a pretty practical guy in the books. I feel like he would be like, hey.
He would just say to him, hey, if I start losing it, yeah, kill me.
It's so dumb.
[00:24:33] Speaker B: Perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought in the book, the Gladers had to make a leap of faith to get to the flat trans.
So how, when they go back the other way, would they be well below the ledge? How could they possibly jump back up to get in?
[00:24:47] Speaker A: So my understanding.
[00:24:49] Speaker B: Remember enough.
[00:24:49] Speaker A: My understanding of the. I. I do. I think my understanding of the way it is described and explained in the book is that the. They do have to make a leap of faith, but the hole that they're jumping through is level with the cliff that they're on. It's not like way below the cliff. It's. It's away from the cliff. It's like 6, 8ft or whatever out in space.
[00:25:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:15] Speaker A: But it's level with the cliff they're on because they explicitly say in the book at one point, I think later, when they're leaving the man. At one point later in the end of the third book, they talk about how they have. Somebody has set planks of wood across from the hole to the ledge.
[00:25:35] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:25:36] Speaker A: And so they're level with each other.
They do have to jump to it, but it's not. Again, he was. I Think Nathan was imagining it where like the hole they're jumping is like down from the cliff. Like they're jumping off the cliff. Down, down.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: Like diving into it.
[00:25:49] Speaker A: Yeah, but no, I think the hole is just level with the cliff.
[00:25:52] Speaker B: That makes sense.
Assuming the series occurs in our universe. I feel like somebody in Wicked must have seen Star wars and have known that it's a mistake to put your soldiers in full body suits and masks so nobody can tell if they might be an enemy trying to sn sneak into the base.
[00:26:09] Speaker A: That is. They did mess that one up.
[00:26:11] Speaker B: They were not media savvy.
The harvesting of fluid from Minho generated by terrifying him seemed a lot like the right wing adrenochrome conspiracy from real life. It made me wonder if some involved in the project believed that nonsense.
[00:26:28] Speaker A: I don't know if it could be necessarily believed it, but just maybe just knew about it and like used it.
[00:26:32] Speaker B: As were inspired by it. Yeah, I was team. I don't feel strongly either way in the Brenda Teresa ship discussion. And the final kiss between Teresa and Thomas did nothing to change my mind. I felt no connection between them up to that point. And the kiss seemed like fan service more than actually having some emotional resonance for me.
[00:26:53] Speaker A: It worked. But that's fair. I mean, obviously. Yeah. It's just up to you whether or not you thought their relationship was.
I didn't think their relationship was super compelling in the movies.
[00:27:02] Speaker B: No more compelling than in the books. It was handled better in the movies than in the books, but it's still not like super duper compelling.
[00:27:07] Speaker A: Yeah. But even still, I thought it landed for me as a moment that it's definitely some degree of fan service for sure. But I think fan service, if done well, can also just be.
[00:27:19] Speaker B: And I will say it landed for me more as like a moment of general closure to that plot line than it did for like their relationship.
[00:27:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:30] Speaker B: And Nathan's last comment here is. I read a summary of the first book in the sequel MA Cutter series and it is set 74 years in the future.
It appears Thomas dies without ever pursuing a cure or getting his memories back. But the summary also says the next generation hears tall tales from old Man Frypan. Yeah, Old Man Fry Pan has such a perfect ring to it. That makes me happy. I also like that.
[00:28:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I.
[00:28:00] Speaker B: Old Man Fry Pan. I like that.
[00:28:02] Speaker A: I read that same. I don't know where I read that, but there's. There's both. I believe both Thomas and Frypan have written like books that are like almost holy texts to this next Generation of characters who are in the. Where did I read. I was trying to Google it and see if I could find it, but I read that somewhere. Oh, maybe it was the Amazon link. Hold on. 73 years after the events of the Death Cure, when Thomas and other immunes were sent to an island to survive, the flare triggered apocalypse. Their descendants have thrived. Sedena, Isaac and Jackie all learned from the unkind history of the Gladers from the Book of Newt. That was it. And Tall Tales from Old Man Frypan. Oh, maybe that's not a book. Maybe that's a. They're literally saying tall Tales from Old Man Fry Pan like he was alive.
[00:28:54] Speaker B: Yeah, it was like an element in the book.
[00:28:56] Speaker A: Yeah, well, that. Literally like he was alive, telling them stories. I interpreted that when I read that the first time as he had written a book called Tall Tales of Old Man Frypan or something. Anyways. But when a rusty old boat shows up one day with a woman bearing a dark, dark news of the mainland, everything changes.
The group and their islander friends are forced to embark back to civilization, where they find cranks have evolved into a more violent, intelligent version of themselves. The islanders are hunted by the Godhead, the Remnant Nation, and scientists with secret agendas. When they cross paths with an orphan named Minho from the Remnant Nation, the dangers become real and they don't know who they can trust. The islanders will have to survive long enough to figure out why they are being targeted, who is friend or foe, and what the Godhead has planned for the future. Future of humanity.
[00:29:48] Speaker B: That sounds exhausting.
[00:29:50] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:29:51] Speaker B: All right, over on Facebook, we had three votes for the movie and zero for the book.
Adam said have to vote for the movie. If for no other reason, then it's a much shorter ordeal and the actors at least provide some life to everything.
I will say the one service the book provides is that if you've always wanted to write a novel but are worried you're not good enough and are suffering from imposter syndrome, remember that somewhere out there, people exist who consider this their favorite book series. If he can do it, you can do it.
[00:30:24] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:30:27] Speaker B: And our next comment was from Paige, who said, oh, I thought for some reason they didn't get to make the last movie. That's exciting. Three question marks.
I think you might be thinking of Divergent, because they didn't. They made three movies in Divergent.
[00:30:44] Speaker A: Right. But there was a part supposed to be a part two that they didn't make.
[00:30:47] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right.
[00:30:48] Speaker A: Well, and to be fair, I think Because I had that same thought about this series. I thought the same thing. Remember at the beginning of this, I think what it for me it was either allegiant, whatever or I had heard the news about the production delays because of just like vaguely somewhere I heard like, oh, the the third Maze Runner movie stopped filming for whatever and got shut down, indefinite, and then just assumed it never got finished or something like that without really even knowing why it got shut down or anything that would. Because I think that may be why I thought that.
[00:31:22] Speaker B: Turns out I watched the first and second movie. Normally I retain the information given, yet I literally can't think of a single scene from either movie. Which I guess explains why I didn't know they made the third.
Fair enough. Yep, on Instagram we didn't have any comments, but we had two votes for the movie, one for the book with an ask asterisk because it was from Tim Wahoo, and two listeners who couldn't decide.
We didn't have any votes on threads, but I did figure out that I can go and look at our threads profile because I can post there because I post through a third party posting site. So I am still posting there. And I figured out that I can in fact see our profile from my personal threads profile, but I can't access our profile and interact with anyone. So I don't know what to do about that. I'm afraid if I mess with it that they'll like shut it down and it's connected to our Instagram account and I don't want to accidentally lose our Instagram account.
[00:32:25] Speaker A: Makes sense.
[00:32:26] Speaker B: But anyway, we didn't have any votes on threads, but I did want to share this one comment from Ian from Wine country who said it's been fun listening to you actively hate Dashner.
[00:32:38] Speaker A: Great.
[00:32:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't like that guy.
And then on Goodreads we had one vote for the movie, zero for the book, and our comment from Mikko who said, I happened to read the Hunger Games for the first time alongside this one. And oh boy, I can't explain how much a difference having a point makes.
[00:32:57] Speaker A: And having a plan. Yeah, I think it's very clear that whatever her name, Suzanne, Suzanne Collins, had at least something resembling a plan for the series.
[00:33:08] Speaker B: The non explanations were the most frustrating part of the book. As we finally got away from Wicked's control, I hoped we could learn something new, but we never really do.
I might find some of the questions interesting, like do I want my memories back if I believed that past me was not good? Or should we torture a few kids to save the world, but they barely even touched that.
How is 900 pages not enough? I just want more information.
Why is everyone in Wicked so smug?
[00:33:38] Speaker A: It is insane. And that is a good. That's a good way to describe it. It is crazy how even after 900 pages of this series, more than 900. Probably close to a thousand pages because they're all like three and change. So probably close to a thousand pages.
It's wild how little it feels like we actually learn about the motivations of anyone. Anyone really. It's just like I guess the plot happened.
[00:34:03] Speaker B: And I think it's a good point too that some the questions that the books raise are interesting questions and if they were being explored by a better author would probably be a really good read. Yeah, but they're not. So they aren't.
I kind of hate the final candidate vivisection thing. Wicked has tortured and killed kids for two years straight and now they are saying they're trying to minimize suffering.
I also don't like that Brenda and Jorge were revealed to be part of Wicked. I thought we left the flip flopping alliances behind us.
The movie isn't without flaws either, but even if they were much more severe, I think it would coast to a win with the goodwill gained during the first two films.
Still, I kinda hate how every scientific sci.
Jesus.
Still, I kinda hate how every scientific endeavor in fiction like this is always just one thing away from an immediate breakthrough. As if neurobiology was that simple.
[00:35:05] Speaker A: Yeah, pretty classic movie science stuff. Yeah, they're always. It's always one person doing one simple thing and then the eureka moment.
[00:35:13] Speaker B: Eureka moment and all of the problems are solved.
[00:35:16] Speaker A: And it's always evil. It's always those two things, which is frustrating as a science enjoyer.
[00:35:24] Speaker B: Also, the movie feels a bit repetitive at times. We have three tense door breaking scenes, two galley reveals himself by removing his mask scenes and about half a dozen last minute rescues. That's a fair criticism.
[00:35:37] Speaker A: I didn't feel.
[00:35:38] Speaker B: I think.
[00:35:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:35:39] Speaker B: I didn't feel that way while I was watching it, but I feel it's a fair criticism.
That being said, I think the movie does a much better job with its characters. Like, I really prefer Giancarlo Esposito's Jorge over a guy whose defining trait seems to be ending every sentence with hermanos. Yeah, yeah.
Also Walton Goggins as a noseless cynic in the post apocalypse, hooked on a medicine that prevents him turning into a mindless rage zombie. Not enough screen time, but a fun addition Especially after Fallout.
[00:36:12] Speaker A: It is. We didn't even like we talked about the similarities, but it really is crazy how similar they are as characters.
When you spell out the details like that, it is like, Yep. Wow. All right. Yeah, those are the same characters.
[00:36:27] Speaker B: Like with the Scorch trials. The Death Cure book feels like random stuff woven together. While the movie has a plot, even if it's generic. This is a clear 3 for 3 sweep for the movies, in my opinion.
[00:36:39] Speaker A: Indeed.
[00:36:40] Speaker B: And also in our opinion. So our winner this time, to probably no one's surprise, was the movie with 11 votes to the book's one with an asterisk, plus two listeners who couldn't decide.
[00:36:54] Speaker A: There you go. Thank you all for commenting in. Always love getting your feedback.
Literally my favorite part of the show. Katie, it's time to see or sorry, not see. It's time to learn and preview the book. The School for Good and Evil.
Every so often, a very lucky candidate.
[00:37:16] Speaker B: From the outside is selected for admission to this hallowed institution.
[00:37:24] Speaker A: It's happening.
[00:37:28] Speaker B: This is it. This is real.
We've been expecting you.
The School for Good and Evil, where.
[00:37:39] Speaker A: The true story behind every great fairy tale begins.
[00:37:42] Speaker B: The School for Good and Evil is a 2013 fairy tale fantasy novel by Soman Chainani, is the first novel in the School for Good and Evil series, which includes six novels, a companion handbook, and two prequel novels.
And I could not find anything specifically stating that the movie was based on more than just this first book. And it better not be because I'm not reading anything else. It's like a five already.
[00:38:13] Speaker A: A very long book. Yeah.
For a children's novel.
[00:38:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of in that, like a middle grade bridging to young adult space.
[00:38:23] Speaker A: Like Harry Potter's range of. Yeah.
Katniss, Katniss, Katniss, don't go in the closet.
[00:38:31] Speaker B: A little bit of background information.
When Chainani was young, he only had a TV set and VHS tapes of Disney, like their animated fairy tale films, which he said was all he watched until the age of 8 and stated that, quote, everything he learned about storytelling and about fairy tales in general, I learned from Disney.
But then after, like going to college, getting out into the wider world, he said he learned about fairy tales and was fascinated by the differences between the older stories and the Disney adaptations.
That was also a big point of fascination for me when I started, when I started learning more about them, saying somewhere between the differences, the School for Good and Evil was born.
He first had the idea for the novel in 2010 while he was Finishing the development of his first feature film, Love Marriage. He was the director for that and he began working on a treatment of that idea, School for Good and Evil, as a screenplay before realizing that it needed to be a novel.
[00:39:42] Speaker A: I didn't know he was a film person.
[00:39:43] Speaker B: Yeah, that's interesting.
So he felt that the Disney adaptations took the older fairy tales, which were more dark, complex and filled with horror, and pasteurized them to make them more appropriate for younger audiences, which I would say is true with the School of Good and Evil. He wanted to get back to the core of the original stories and give young readers a taste of what a real fairy tale is.
He said he wanted the characters to be unsafe with no warmth in the narrator and no predictability of a happy ending, which I think that's interesting.
Getting into some review poll quotes Michael Barry of Common Sense Media said that the book was no run of the mill fairy tale spinoff. He also praised the wit and insight, though he criticized the repetition and called it burdensome.
Writing for the Herald, Gary Scott commended the character of Sophie, the ending, character developments, simple words and speeches, and said he came across, quote, the most marvelous feeling that he has ever I have ever come across in a book.
And then these are more about like the series in general and not just the first book, but writing for npr, Selena Simmons Duffin called the series a low key empire.
[00:41:12] Speaker A: Really? Is this series that popular?
[00:41:14] Speaker B: I don't. I don't know.
[00:41:15] Speaker A: I'm assuming that's what that like. Assuming that's what she means by that.
[00:41:19] Speaker B: And Kirkus Reviews said that the series was, quote, rich and strange and complemented the COVID and described the series as being more strong on set pieces rather than internal logic.
And as of mid-2020, according to Wikipedia, the novel has sold over 2.5 million copies and has been translated into at least 30 languages.
So reasonably popular.
[00:41:47] Speaker A: All right, that is it for your preview of the book. Time now to learn a little bit about the School for Good and Evil.
The film the School for Good trains the heroes, the School for Evil the villains.
You're trying to tell me that Snow White and Cinderella and Jack and the Beanstalk were real?
[00:42:09] Speaker B: Our graduates live the very real events.
[00:42:12] Speaker A: Which become the that change the world.
[00:42:21] Speaker B: Is there a world that I can chase with you? This is all I've ever wanted, Aggie. I can't settle for an ordinary life. Not as it seems, the universe we knew.
But we don't belong here. Oh dear, you must be lost. That is an understatement.
[00:42:44] Speaker A: School for Good and Evil is a 2022 film written and directed by Paul Feig. Feig. I think it's Feig.
Director, writer of Bridesmaids, the heat, spy, Ghostbusters, 2016, a simple favor. Also was a writer director on Freaks and Geeks and then was a director on Arrested Development, weeds, the Office, 30 Rock, Mad Men, Parks and Rec. Very prolific TV director and then obviously made quite a few comedies in the mid-2010s. The film was co written by David McGee, the writer of Finding Neverland, Life of PI, Mary Poppins Returns, A Man Called Otto, Lady Chatterley's Lover and the recent live action Little Mermaid film.
The film stars Sophia Ann Caruso, Sophia Wylie, Earl Cave, Laurence Fishburne, Michelle Yeoh, Jamie Flatters, Kit Young, Peter Sarafinowitz, Rob Delaney, Mark Heap, Patti LuPone, Rachel Bloom, Cate Blanchett, Carrie Washington and Charlize Theron.
Hell of a cast.
It has a 38% on Rotten Tomatoes, a 30 on Metacritic and a 5.9 out of 10 on IMDb.
And it was not nominated or won like any awards that I could find.
Universal Pictures actually won the auction for the film rights to the novel series or at least the first novel in 2013, signing a seven figure deal for the book and script writing fees. Chainani and Malia Stach Marmo, the writer on Hook, Jurassic park, she's actually uncredited on like all these movies which is interesting.
[00:44:22] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:44:22] Speaker A: She was credited on Hook, but she was an uncredited writer on Jurassic Park, Polar Express, Enchanted and like a handful of other like pretty well known movies.
And then also a movie called Only youy were originally hired to write the screenplay and they finished their version of the script in 2015. The film then sat in development hell for a few years before Netflix purchased the rights and added David McGee and Laura Salon as screenwriters. Feig then joined the project as director. Feig. Feig joined the project as director in 2020 and he then rewrote the script to his own liking, saying quote that he is very against any movies where you have to know things before you go there. End quote. What the idea being like for an adaptation. I assume what he's meaning is you need to be able to watch the movie on its own, not like you have to have read the book and know about this world before you watch the movie.
[00:45:16] Speaker B: Okay, I could agree with that.
[00:45:17] Speaker A: I assume that's what he means there. I don't know for sure, but that's my interpretation of there. And I assume maybe what he's getting at is that maybe the pre with the context of where that was in relation to him rewriting the script.
My guess is maybe that was a quote in context relating to Chainani's version and previous versions being a little too.
You kind of had to do the required reading before you see the movie for it to work. I don't know. That's just a guess.
I also have mixed feeling about Paul Feig's work. So we'll see great TV direct. Every episode of TV that he's directed I think has been fantastic. But writing. We'll see.
One of the things that Feig wanted to do is make sure that the film was very visually distinct from Harry Potter. Obviously, with Harry Potter wrapping up a couple years before this and similarities sounding similar, at least that you wanted to make sure that it was distinct. Also, they used minimal green screen, choosing to build extensive sets, which I thought was fascinating. Especially.
I wouldn't have guessed for this.
[00:46:19] Speaker B: I would not have guessed that. Especially based on, like, the clips of it that I've seen.
[00:46:22] Speaker A: I haven't seen anything from it. I have not watched it. Once I edit. When I go to edit this prequel, I will get to watch the trailer, because I put the trailer in the prequel episodes.
But, yeah, I. So I'll get to see them. But I have not seen anything from this other than, like, the poster of it or whatever that you posted on social media.
Over 800 costumes and 600 pairs of shoes were produced for the film by more than 70 costumers.
[00:46:45] Speaker B: Damn.
[00:46:45] Speaker A: So lots of. Lots of that. Filming ran from January 2021 to July 2021. And a fun fact. There's an author cameo.
Soman. Is it Soman? Yeah, yeah. Chainani or Chainani. Did you look it up?
[00:47:00] Speaker B: I think it's Chainani.
[00:47:01] Speaker A: Soman. Chainani appears briefly as one of the teachers at the school, apparently. But then finally getting into some reviews here. I'm gonna do this live on the fly because I forgot to add them. First up, this was fun. Donald Clark and Tara Brady for the Irish Times, which a lot of this film was shot in Ireland. They filmed in Belfast for. I think specifically that makes sense for a lot of sense, because some. Some production reasons that I can't remember. I think it was related to because they shot it during, like, Covid stuff, and I can't remember, but the School for Good and Evil. They named the School for Good and Evil the ninth worst film of the year, saying, quote, feig delivered something that looked no less vulgar than the average Des Moines department store window, end quote. Which is like, what do you know about Des Moines?
[00:47:44] Speaker B: Just really coming out hot after Des Moines department stores.
[00:47:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
Metacritic ranked it its 15th worst rated film of 2022 and reviewers criticize Reviewers criticized it as, quote, a campy, underdeveloped and overstuffed Harry Potter knockoff that was a slog to sit through.
[00:48:03] Speaker B: Perfect.
[00:48:03] Speaker A: And I'm just going to go through going to get through some Rotten Tomatoes. Critic Reviews Here Just a couple of the one liners from their top critics. Amy Nicholson, who's a reviewer or critic and whose podcast I enjoy quite a bit, said gave it a rotten score, saying the movie really is star studded but has almost to no momentum.
Kevin Mauer for the Times UK said gave it a fresh rating 3 out of 5 but said it's too nakedly derivative and too crudely assembled. Feig is hardly a visual stylist, yet the central conceit is consistently compelling. End quote Noel Murray for the Los Angeles Times said in Rotten Review, an exhaustingly long, overstuffed movie that probably would have worked better as a TV series. End quote.
Let me find another interesting one here.
[00:48:53] Speaker B: I mean with all of the books in this, I'm surprised they didn't just do a TV series. Honestly.
[00:48:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, you would think this. I don't know this outlet, but Olivia Trifont Wong writing for Refinery29 gave it a fresh score, saying in the end the School for Good and Evil speaks to a modern audience's desire for complexity, even in beloved fairy tales.
Writing for Culturesque, Lindsay Press said the movies lacks a severe amount of world building, character development and follow through.
And I'm trying to find like one more good one here from a top critic. Give me a second. All critics give me top critics. Oh, here we go. Richard Ropert for the Chicago Sun Times Rotten review the School Free Good and Evil ends with the promise of further chapters, but I'd be okay with closing the book without turning any more pages. End quote. Here's one more Top critic Fresh review from Jake Wilson, writing for the Age, which is an Australian outlet of some sort. This is the starting point for a lot of enjoyably intricate silliness, which incorporates makeovers, magical duels, shout outs to Lewis Carroll and Little Shop of Horrors, and some impressively bold puberty metaphors.
Oh, and then we gotta include this one. Finally, we'll end it on this one.
Writingfor RogerEbert.com Christy Lemire, who I believe is the in house movie like critic for Ebert's website now and has been for a while, I believe, gave it a 1.5 out of 4 stars.
Rotten review Saying, quote, harry Potter meets Descendants with a dash of Romeo and Juliet in the School for Good and Evil. And yes, it is as overstuffed as that sounds.
So there you go. There are some reviews of the film, mostly negative, but, hell tell you this. I'm excited.
[00:50:39] Speaker B: I'm so excited.
[00:50:40] Speaker A: Like a mess.
[00:50:41] Speaker B: It does. It sounds like. Well, and the clips of it that I have seen. So I. I found this movie series because Facebook will sometimes just feed me random movie clips and their reels. And I had clicked on one because I thought it was a clip from Once Upon a Time.
[00:51:02] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, that's what it feels like.
[00:51:04] Speaker B: Which should tell you something about the quality and how it looked.
But then after I clicked on that one, it kept suggesting the clips to me and I was like, this looks so bad in such a fun way.
[00:51:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:51:18] Speaker B: So I decided we had to cover it.
[00:51:20] Speaker A: There we go. Katie, where can people watch the School for Good and Evil?
[00:51:26] Speaker B: So I don't think this ever got, like, a home release.
[00:51:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:51:29] Speaker B: So it might be sol. Yeah. Never got a non streaming wise.
Sometimes libraries have rental streaming services, so you could always ask.
But otherwise you're gonna have to have somebody's Netflix password to watch this one. Or you could sail the high seas. We won't judge.
[00:51:48] Speaker A: Yeah, we won't judge. Go for it. Yeah. As I said, I'm excited for some silly.
Some silly trash.
Sounds good to me.
Yeah. Especially something in the vein of Once Upon a Time. I'm here for it. So we'll be talking about it in one week's time. Until that time. Just until that time. Like three times and four times now five times. I keep doing it. Jesus.
Until that time. Guys, gals, not bs.
[00:52:14] Speaker B: And everybody else, keep reading books, keep watching movies, and keep being awesome.
