Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: On this week's prequel episode, we follow up on our Wicked listener polls and preview Wicked for good.
Hello, and welcome back to another prequel episode of this Film Is lit, the podcast where we talk about movies that are based on books. As I said, it's a prequel episode. Plenty of feedback and a little preview to do. Shouldn't be a super long episode. We're going to be nice and tidy with it, so we're going to jump right in, as we always do with our patron shout outs. I put up with you because your father and mother were our finest patrons, that's why. No new patrons this week, but we do have our Academy Award winning patrons, and they are. Amanda Nicole Goblet. Harpo Rat Nathan. Mathilde Cottonwood. Steve Ben Wilcox, Teresa Schwartz, Ian from Wine Country, Kelly Napier Gratch.
Just scratch. Shelby says, why did the Odyssey make the Punisher look like Andrew Tate?
And that darn skag? Thank you all very much for your continued support. Shelby, I'll be able to tell you on Friday. We're going to see the Odyssey in IMAX Friday afternoon, and maybe I will. My guess would be that it's not accidental. Well, probably not specifically Andrew Tate, but maybe looking like a. I don't know
[00:01:29] Speaker B: what role he plays.
[00:01:30] Speaker A: Alpha male. He plays the guy.
Not Agamemnon.
Oh, the other. The guy who has Helen.
[00:01:43] Speaker B: Yeah, the other guy.
[00:01:44] Speaker A: I can't remember his name now.
[00:01:45] Speaker B: The guy that Helen gets stolen from.
[00:01:48] Speaker A: Yes, yes, I believe so. And then he takes her back.
[00:01:51] Speaker B: Okay. My knowledge of the Odyssey is honestly cursory at best.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: And I haven't watched, like, Troy or anything in a long time, so I don't, you know, even ancillary details of characters, it's. But, yeah, but he plays that guy who has Helen after the events of the Trojan War.
He seems like an asshole. Based on. From the trailers. And so I think it's probably not accidental that he kind of looks like a dude, bro. Asshole. I would wager that that's not incidental, but maybe. I don't know. Like I said, haven't seen the film yet. We're gonna find out. Very excited to see it on Friday, but we'll let you know if it's intentional or if it's just an accident. But knowing Chris Nolan, I don't think it's probably accidental. All right, thank you all for your continued support. Let's see what the people had to say about Wicked.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just like your opinion, man.
[00:02:52] Speaker B: These responses were all over the map.
[00:02:54] Speaker A: All over the map. We got everything.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: We got. Well, yeah, a little bit of everything.
Starting on Patreon.
[00:02:59] Speaker A: It is funny because usually there's a little bit of a general.
Our audience, not that they're all the same, but as listeners of the show, you know, like, we tend to. I think we tend to have fans who have similar tastes and stuff, or at least broadly. Again, not everybody agrees about everything. Like, very often with people disagreeing. But this one is more all over the place than maybe anything in terms of like some people loving.
I don't know, it's just very. I thought it was very interesting how kind of all over the place the feedback was.
[00:03:31] Speaker B: So starting on Patreon, where we had five votes for the movie and five for the book.
Our first comment was from Kelly Napier, who said, holy cow. I don't think I have ever disagreed with y' all more on my. On any episode before this one.
[00:03:48] Speaker A: All right.
[00:03:49] Speaker B: The book wins hands down every time. It's super dark, but I have to prefer it to the watered down version of the story that we got in the play and subsequently the movie.
Oh, to be a Fly on the Wall, when they decided to take everything nuanced about how Elphaba becomes who she was and turn the story into an odd couple esque bud comedy. Instead, the story is Elphaba, not Alphaba and Glinda's. The music in the play movie, just awful.
[00:04:20] Speaker A: This is one of the cr. Kelly, this is one of the crazier takes I've ever heard you throw out there.
Awful. That's a wild assertion.
That's all I'm going to say for now.
[00:04:33] Speaker B: Easily in the bottom five of musicals for me.
So many of the songs feel like they can't decide what they want to be.
[00:04:41] Speaker A: Okay, this is crazy to me because that is my complaint for musicals like into the Woods I have an issue with. Maybe not that I can't decide what it's gonna be, but the one time I've seen Into the woods, which was the movie, unfortunately.
[00:04:57] Speaker B: Yeah, it was a little unfortunate.
[00:04:58] Speaker A: My issue with the music in that, which I know people regard as some of the best musical music ever written, is that to me, that musical music never. It's like constantly being edged and it never gets to the release.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: That's Sondheim, baby.
[00:05:13] Speaker A: And I think I've realized I just don't like Sondheim, maybe in terms of his style. Not that I can appreciate the musical intricacies of the song into the woods, and I don't even hate everything about it, but it's so funny hearing you say that. The music in this can't decide what's gonna be. Because to me, the music in this, every song knows exactly what it is.
I don't know. Anyways, yeah, okay, I'm going to get
[00:05:37] Speaker B: through this little section of Kelly's comment and then I have some thoughts as well.
So many of the songs feel like they can't decide what they want to be. You're bopping along and then out of nowhere the song changes to a snippet of something else, but just for a moment before returning to the original tune.
[00:05:54] Speaker A: I love that so much. I'm sorry.
[00:05:56] Speaker B: The worst example of this is how the unlimited theme shows up in four different songs throughout the two films. Sorry to jump ahead. But is never actually a song of its own and it's never explained.
Argh. All caps.
[00:06:10] Speaker A: It's a leitmotif. Maybe. I don't know if that's the right word, but leitmotif. I think that's how you pronounce it, but.
[00:06:17] Speaker B: So whether or not you like this musical, I think is largely going to depend on what kind of musical you like.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: I agree with that because I think
[00:06:28] Speaker B: in my opinion, the music from Wicked is like very.
Is very typical of that era of musical of like the big, like bombastic, like blockbuster musical era. Yeah, I don't really think that it's all that different from like Phantom.
[00:06:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I would agree. To me it's also.
I would be.
That was the question I wanted to know was what are some of Kelly's favorite musical?
[00:07:00] Speaker B: I would love to know that.
[00:07:01] Speaker A: I. Super fascinating.
[00:07:02] Speaker B: I would love to know some of Kelly's favorites because, like, my mom, for instance, does not particularly like Wicked.
[00:07:09] Speaker A: Right.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: I don't think she would say that it's awful and like in her bottom five. But she does not particularly like Wicked. My mom likes classic, like 50s and 60s, like Rogers and Hammerstein musicals. Yeah, that's what she likes.
[00:07:24] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. And I get that. Like, I can totally understand if the style of the musical isn't what you like. As I said in the episode, it is exactly the kind of musical style that I like. But to me, the thing that's really interesting is I think, and I could be wrong, but Kelly, I assume, I mean, your age range, you would have grown up on.
Cause you're about our age. From my memory, you would have grown up on Disney musicals. And to me, Wicked is just like an amplified Disney musical.
[00:07:53] Speaker B: It's very much in that same wheelhouse of like the formula of it yes.
[00:07:59] Speaker A: It reminds me of a slightly heightened. Like a. Not as much for children, a little bit more complicated in terms of what it's doing musically, a little bit than a Disney musical. But it's a similar type of thing in terms of the style of music, the type of songs in it. To me, it reminds me of something like a Disney musical.
[00:08:19] Speaker B: Yes. It is honestly, very similar to Beauty and the Beast, where we start with a big ensemble number that sets the groundwork for a lot of what we're gonna be talking about, which is most musicals or.
[00:08:33] Speaker A: A lot of musicals do that.
[00:08:34] Speaker B: There's an I Want song.
[00:08:35] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:08:37] Speaker B: There is an odd couple romantic song.
[00:08:40] Speaker A: Yes.
There's a quirky, like.
Not almost like a makeover or like, the popular is like. I'm trying to think of an equivalent in a Disney movie, but it's like that, like, playful. The secondary character gets their own, like, lead song that is kind of, like, more fun and, like. Yeah. I can't think of a great example off the top of my head, but, yeah, to me, it just kind of tracks very. I don't know. It's exactly the kind of musical I love. And mainly because I think the thing that. Again, the thing to me that really sticks out is that I love the little asides to different, like, motifs throughout the songs.
[00:09:18] Speaker B: And I. That's another reason that I would like to know what some of Kelly's favorites are, because to me, that is just a musical. A very, very common thing that happens in most musicals, regardless of the style, are those repeated themes.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: Yeah. From different songs, different move. It's the different motifs for different characters and different things. And I understand that unlimited. That unlimited theme is not. It's not its own song.
It just shows up in other stuff.
I love that little motif that shows up in Defying Gravity and the other handful of songs that it shows up. And I think it's fantastic and just adds this air of mystery and anticipation.
Again, it's obviously entirely subjective. It's music. It's like, what kind of music do you like?
[00:10:04] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:04] Speaker A: But it is. I. So, for instance, I just say. All I'll say is calling it awful, I think is a stretch.
I don't like the music in into the Woods. I would not call the music in into the woods awful. I would just say it's not for me.
[00:10:19] Speaker B: But, yeah. I mean, I.
I really don't like Godspell.
[00:10:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:25] Speaker B: I get why people who like Godspell like Godspell, but it's not for me.
[00:10:30] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
I'm Picking it there in terms of language because it's the same thing. I mean, you're saying it's subjectively awful to you. I get it.
[00:10:42] Speaker B: Okay. So continuing with Kelly's comment here, Jonathan Bailey as Fierro. Awful, crazy. An awful rendition of what is honestly the weakest character in the play slash movie.
How am I supposed to believe that he would be in the middle of a love triangle when he's portrayed as a frat boy fuck boy?
Fiyero in the book is less boisterous.
[00:11:05] Speaker A: Fat boy fuck boys end up in the middle of love triangles.
[00:11:07] Speaker B: I mean, I would. I would say so it's not uncommon.
Fierro in the book is less boisterous, but at least I didn't want to punch him in the face.
By the way, I thought his horse is blue in the movie because it's a horse of a different color. A reference to the 1939 wizard of Oz movie. I think it can be both.
[00:11:26] Speaker A: I think it's both. That is what I. When I was going through the IMDb trivia for this movie, the preview for this next movie. That is what IMDb trivia said. Why his horse is blue. But.
[00:11:37] Speaker B: So I don't know that I would call Fiyero the weakest character in the musical.
I don't think he's like the most interesting.
[00:11:46] Speaker A: Yeah, he might be the least interesting.
I think arguably box less interesting than Fiyero in the musical. At least I think he's got a little more going on in the book. But in the book, I would say Fiero, at least up until the first half. In the first half, because he's barely in it, is pretty uninteresting. Yeah. I mean he's not my favorite character really.
[00:12:06] Speaker B: And I do think so. I like Jonathan.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: I think he's performance.
[00:12:10] Speaker B: I think he's great as Fiyo. I think he has the charisma.
[00:12:15] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:12:16] Speaker B: To do Fiyero.
[00:12:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:17] Speaker B: But if you're already predisposed to not like that character, I definitely understand how you might not enjoy his performance.
[00:12:26] Speaker A: Yeah. If you don't like. He's.
[00:12:28] Speaker B: He's doing Fiero over the top. He's all the way at 11.
[00:12:32] Speaker A: Yeah. 100. He has taken the Fiero of the stage play of the. Of the musical on the stage and dialed it up to the most obnoxious.
[00:12:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:41] Speaker A: Scene chewing boy version of him. Which I think is hilarious and fun and enjoyable to watch.
But yeah, if you don't like that character, then I can understand hating him in the movie.
[00:12:57] Speaker B: And not since Russell Crowe As Inspector Javert in Les Miserables. Did I see an actor less suited to be in a movie musical than Jeff Goldblum?
[00:13:06] Speaker A: How dare you. As many issues as I have with Jeff Goldblum in this movie, Russell Crowe as Javert in Les Mis. I've not even seen the movie. I have watched the single music, the single live performance of the whole cast doing One Day More that I've watched it a bunch of times because it's really good. Except when Russell Crowe comes in, he's completely offbeat. And you can tell everybody else in the room is like, oh, my God, the man struggles. It's so bad.
[00:13:36] Speaker B: Are you talking about it's where they're
[00:13:38] Speaker A: all in the booth.
[00:13:39] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:13:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:40] Speaker B: And I feel so bad.
[00:13:42] Speaker A: And you see, like, the conductor or whatever trying to get him on the beat, and he's just not even close.
[00:13:48] Speaker B: You can, like, almost even see him, like, tearing up a little bit.
[00:13:52] Speaker A: Yes. You can tell that he knows he can't do it.
[00:13:54] Speaker B: He knows he can't do it.
[00:13:55] Speaker A: Oh, my God, it's brutal. That's, like, legitimately terrible.
[00:14:00] Speaker B: Okay, so his song just feels so off.
[00:14:04] Speaker A: I don't disagree with that.
[00:14:05] Speaker B: I can't even describe it better than that.
Also, Michelle Yoh has stated in interviews she isn't sure why they cast her because she knows she can't sing. Well, fair enough.
[00:14:15] Speaker A: And they were like, well, you just got to talk one song and that's it.
At least in the first one. I don't know if she has another.
[00:14:21] Speaker B: Honestly, I can't remember. But, yeah, my biggest gripe with the movie is its length. The entire Broadway show is shorter than the first movie. For what reason did this need to be true? None.
I'm not going to say I loved this book. It definitely has its flaws, but I so deeply dislike the play and the movie even more so because it somehow found a way to make an exercise in patience even more toiling.
[00:14:47] Speaker A: I mean, fair enough, I. Not my experience, but fair enough for you.
[00:14:50] Speaker B: It's not for you, I guess.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:53] Speaker B: All right, our next comment is from Nathan, who said, I took the hint from the previous pod and got myself to the theater on the middle Sunday so I could have the experience of having seen the play movie and read the book.
I really enjoyed seeing the show and want that to be considered when I say that I think it was definitely the worst of the three versions.
With the notable exception of Defying Gravity, which is a brilliant masterpiece. None of none of the songs really popped on stage for me. Being at a theater is cool. But being 26 rows back is always going to feel less immersive than playing the movie on a TV right in front of me.
[00:15:32] Speaker A: I can see that. It really does depend. You have to. I mean. But yeah, I can see that. It definitely isn't as immersive in the same way. For sure. It's different. It's immersive even sitting like. Because when we saw this, we sat up in the nosebleeds.
[00:15:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:44] Speaker A: And it's, you know, it's differently immersive because there is something, I think more immersive to being in a theater, watching live theater, even in the nosebleeds, than watching a performance on tv.
[00:15:56] Speaker B: I think it's just immersive in a different way.
[00:15:58] Speaker A: Yeah, that's my point. It's just immersive in a different way.
[00:16:00] Speaker B: That was also, to be fair, when we went and saw Wicked in Memphis. That was one of the worst theater going experiences that I have ever.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: Yeah. But my point was that even still I didn't think it like I thought it was still.
My point was that even sitting up in the nosebleeds when we saw it, I still found it immersive in a different way than the movie.
[00:16:20] Speaker B: Right.
[00:16:20] Speaker A: And yes, we did have a particularly bad experience in the first act or the first, like 20 minutes of it were a nightmare.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: But nobody knows theater etiquette anymore, including the ushers. But yeah, as far as the two formats we are actually discussing, I give it to the book by just a smidge.
I think the movie does a great job of depicting the play and improving my enjoyment of the music from the show. The. But it's just so much thinner a story that it has a real uphill battle to catch up to the book.
I love the relationship between Ariana and Cynthia. Elphaba and Glinda in the book don't reach anywhere near the same level of emotional connection.
[00:16:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Because the book, to Kelly's point, the book doesn't really focus on their relationship nearly as much as the movie. The movie was like, this is what it's about.
[00:17:07] Speaker B: And I'm guessing it's going to be less in the second half.
[00:17:09] Speaker A: It seems like it, yeah.
[00:17:12] Speaker B: Also, Defying Gravity is just a straight shot of adrenaline in my veins. It's just a perfect crescendo song for the first act and makes me so pumped every time I hear it.
[00:17:21] Speaker A: No arguments there.
[00:17:23] Speaker B: I also think the book comes back to the movie a little because it has more potential than actual payoff. I found the time jumps in the story to Be a bit off putting. Like we have an interesting story of Elphaba's childhood that ends kind of midway to move on to her time at school.
It's only made weirder by how much work the school part has to do to fill in the gaps in between.
It felt to me like there were honestly two books smushed together into the front half of the book.
Like the author realized they could write an entire prequel and knew that it wasn't the book they actually wanted to write or possibly was not nearly as marketable as the YA story of the school section.
It feels like they struggled to figure out exactly what to leave in from this hypothetical prequel and opted for a really detailed look at Elphaba's parents life.
When a little less detail and more time covered would have made more sense.
I would read that prequel and the separate book that is only about the time at Shiz.
[00:18:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean I could see that.
I personally so far at least haven't. The time jumps haven't bothered me. I've actually liked there was a moment when we jumped from her childhood forward to her going to Shiz where I was like, oh wow, we're just jumping.
[00:18:36] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a big jump.
[00:18:37] Speaker A: Jumped ahead 10 years or 15 years or whatever.
But in. In context. And now having read the whole first half and a little bit into the second half, I don't mind the time jumps. It feels again with what the book is doing and what it's. It's kind of focusing on and kind of the whole journey of Elphaba and her radicalization and her becoming the villain of this world. I think it's showing at least so far. The book to me has shown enough of each of those stages of her life in order for it to work for me.
That being said, I wouldn't have been opposed to more in like that her childhood. Cause I was. I found that all interesting. Like I was like this is cool. I would find and same for Shiz. Like I could have had more there.
But I have also not felt underwhelmed by how much we've gotten or like I was like desperately missing.
[00:19:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I would read more about her childhood, but I didn't personally feel like robbed of that as I was reading the book.
All right, our next comment is from Shelby, who said the first half of the book did some world building. That's tangentially interesting, but the movie had this in the bag until the very last second.
And then Elphaba kissed Glinda goodbye. She sings about a kiss goodbye and Defying gravity. But in the book she fucking does it.
But Shelby, the friend group kisses each other all the time and the book never says what kind of kiss. Well, I was led to believe the book was more sapphic. Just let me have this.
[00:20:13] Speaker A: I mean, I will say I also in that moment was like, ooh, gave her a little kiss. And now again to me, I interpreted it as a more platonic friendly kiss, but I can't remember the exact line she says there. But she also says like my sweet or calls her like my sweet in a way that felt slightly less or slightly something slightly more than platonic in that moment. Like just the wording of what she said.
[00:20:41] Speaker B: Sigh no comment for now on what the book does with Glinda. I'll save my thoughts on how the book handles Nessa's disability for part two as well.
It's the movie and it's not even close. There's a petty, vindictive look Ma, I'm writing a grown up book vibe to the novel that really gave me the ick. It's deep and edgy because everyone's the asshole and it never stops. The second half of the book really seeps into it, but it's not absent from the first half.
[00:21:08] Speaker A: I'll have to withhold judgment on this until I finish the second half. I will say right now in the first half I got zero of that vibe.
Personally.
[00:21:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't really.
[00:21:17] Speaker A: I didn't really get that vibe at all. To me it just felt like somebody intentionally writing a book for 20 somethings like that it is. It has a more mature edge.
Like because it's for adults. Like it's, it is for people. And, and there's maybe a slight twinge of like. Like again the stuff with like the Philosophy Club has like a maybe a little bit of edginess or like strangeness to it that.
But to me it all felt perfectly in line with the goals of the book, which was exploring the weird finding yourself years of college and post college.
Like that seems like what the book is really doing.
A lot of it's kind of like one of the core thematic elements of the book is that it's a later coming of age coming of age and it's a coming of age tale for people in their twenties.
Normally coming of age stuff is like when you're a teenager or whatever, but this is for 25 year olds or whatever or late 20 year olds and to me the kind of edgy everybody's an assholeness stuff of it. What elements of it again Only in the first half where to me it didn't feel come across that way. All of those. What little bit of it I felt in the first half of the book to me felt entirely true to how people are when they're 20 year olds,
[00:22:35] Speaker B: which is assholes, right?
[00:22:37] Speaker A: Because you're.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: You've still got that kind of selfishness of childhood left over.
[00:22:42] Speaker A: I was a much more selfish and not as nice of a person when I was 24 as I am now. Like, not even close.
Not entirely different people, but just like I was a way more selfish person in a lot of different ways than I am now when I was like in my 20s. And I think that's true for most people, if not every. Again, not everybody. There's some people who are great but figured it out early, some people who stay assholes forever. Yeah. But I do think that any of that that is in the book to me felt authentic and not an attempt to be edgy for edginess sake.
[00:23:20] Speaker B: It felt like. Yeah, I'll withhold judgment on that for the time being as well, because similar to you, I didn't really get that vibe from the first half of the book. It's a darker story than maybe what we're used to for like an Oz story.
But, you know, I think that's kind of neither here nor there. And I also think that, like, edgy for the sake of edginess is just. It's kind of a hard thing to quantify. And I think it boils down to personal preference.
Because I'm being honest. I've felt that way about a lot of the Stephen King that I've read where it feels like sometimes he's just being edgy for the sake of being edgy, you know?
[00:24:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:03] Speaker B: Continuing with Shelby's comment, the movie is grand and fun and exciting. I love several of the songs, which is rare.
[00:24:10] Speaker A: Is it? I have to know. Shelby, I need you to respond to this. Is it because you don't like musical music normally, or is that you're just not a music person? Like, I'm genuinely curious. When you say I love several of the songs, which is rare, do you just not like music much at all, or is it like you're not a musical person normally, but you like some of them? I was just curious.
[00:24:30] Speaker B: I'm such a sucker for twisting the Chosen One trope. I love it. That's my shit. You're telling me that's not in the stage version movies?
[00:24:37] Speaker A: Better which part of the Chosen One.
[00:24:39] Speaker B: So I think, I think here what Shelby's referring to is when they do. When they're in the Emerald City in the movie and they do the Oz players with relating to the Grimory. Yeah, relating to. Like implying that she's supposed to be the one who was there to save
[00:24:54] Speaker A: Eyes and the wizard showed up first.
[00:24:56] Speaker B: Yeah. And honestly, I don't think that the Chosen One Thing is absent from the stage version.
[00:25:03] Speaker A: I can't remember.
[00:25:04] Speaker B: It's maybe not quite as strongly implied as it is in the movie because
[00:25:08] Speaker A: that scene is not in the movie or in the stage version. But there may be other.
I just can't remember there's other allusions to it or something.
[00:25:15] Speaker B: Considering that she is the only one who's been able to read the Grimory up to this point. Point. I feel like there's still a Chosen One thing going on.
[00:25:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:23] Speaker B: I don't have a problem with going straight to the Grimory. When they meet the wizard, they know Elphaba is the real Chosen One and much stronger than Morrible. Of course. They want to finally see what she can do when in control.
[00:25:35] Speaker A: I don't have an issue with them necessarily doing it. My issue is more so with Elphaba. Again, the whole thing just feels kind of truncated in a way where, like, Elphaba is just like, yeah, I'll just read this book. Book that they're telling me to. When she doesn't really trust these people. I just. I.
Yeah, it doesn't matter. But it's not a big issue.
[00:25:52] Speaker B: But I love the horror sequence where the monkeys get wings. That's just more of my great stuff.
I think Michelle Yeoh does a good job. She's got a fun little aura farming moment when she sends the monkeys.
[00:26:05] Speaker A: Okay. So that's the exact moment I was thinking of when I complimented her physical presence in the film. I think her physicality in the role works great. I think she performs it fine. It's just like some of the dialogue and delivery line deliveries and specifically her song are the issues that I have.
[00:26:26] Speaker B: I don't even think she's bad in this.
[00:26:27] Speaker A: No, I think she's good. I wouldn't even say bad. I just don't think she's great.
[00:26:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:32] Speaker A: But again, I do.
That is literally the moment I was thinking of in the episode when I said that she has good physicality. Was that moment. Moment.
[00:26:41] Speaker B: Jeff Goldblum fits in better than I thought he would. Together, they're fun to hate.
Defying Gravity is fabulous. Of course, I love the wide shot of her over the city.
[00:26:52] Speaker A: That's the best shot. In that sequence, I assume you're talking about this, the one from the side where, like, the tower's on the right and then she's like up on the left. That's the best shot in that sequence, in my opinion, because it's the prettiest. It's. Yeah. When we push into close ups and stuff on hers, when it feels.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: I love the wide shot of her over the city chills and her magic knocking out the power grid chills. Again, other thoughts.
The fuck you mean? That's Cynthia Erivo's actual singing from when she was filming stunts during Defying Gravity. As someone who's worn a harness for 10 whole seconds and immediately noped back out, it's easier to believe she can just fly.
[00:27:30] Speaker A: So this is the constant thing they repeat is that all the music was recorded on set. And I believe that I will say that I would be interested to see what that actually means in practice.
[00:27:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:43] Speaker A: Because obviously it's all put together in post. Some of those shots are completely CG where she's flying in the sky and stuff. So, like, the whole song wasn't recorded, like. I don't know, some of those moments when they say it was all recorded on set, I'm like, I believe you.
But also, like, maybe they recorded all of Defying Gravity, like, with her standing on the set somewhere and then. You know what I mean?
[00:28:12] Speaker B: I gotta say, like, I'm kind of in a similar boat where I don't disbelieve them.
[00:28:18] Speaker A: I kind of disbelieve them.
[00:28:19] Speaker B: But I. I would love to know. Yeah, exactly like, what that means.
[00:28:25] Speaker A: I think they're being tricky with language a little bit.
[00:28:28] Speaker B: Because as someone who does have a little bit of, like, vocal training and like, experience in theater, singing to that level when you're doing anything other than standing up straight is fucking hard.
[00:28:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's not impossible.
[00:28:51] Speaker B: It's not impossible. And it's not that I think Cynthia Erivo couldn't do it. I'm sure she can.
But I would question whether or not, like, I feel like they want us to think that the entire cut of Defying Gravity is her singing as she was flying around in a heart on a harness.
[00:29:08] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:29:08] Speaker B: And I just. I just don't know if I believe that whole cloth.
[00:29:12] Speaker A: And as somebody who knows a little bit about how movies are made, so much of just regular dialogue in movies is ADR because of a million different reasons. And again, it's not that I disbelieve them. I believe that the audio you're hearing for the Most part in the movie. The. The. The singing was recorded on set in different ways. It's just. I think they're being maybe a little bit generous with what that means.
[00:29:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:39] Speaker A: To where, like, so when a person hears that, they go, oh, yeah, she's being, like, swung around on a harness and singing all these lines or whatever. And like in the moment and like doing all of that. Like. But when you hear the master and stuff on it, it's just.
And again, with the way it's put together, where half the shots are completely cgi, some of those shots where she's flying around, it's not a real. They weren't shooting anything while she's singing. So, like, what does that mean? Like, clearly she wasn't singing it while that was happening because that's all cgi, you know what I mean?
[00:30:08] Speaker B: And to take it back to the stage show as well. There are multiple reasons that at the end of Act 1, they have the actress playing Elphaba on a lift and not on a wire illusion harness. And the fact that she's singing is one of those reasons.
[00:30:24] Speaker A: It's because it's a very hard part. Sing at that moment. It's the big belting moment. And yeah. Not being in a thing. Squeezing her is part of that. Is she's on a mini elevator, basically. Like a stage.
Yeah. And so I. I do. Like I said, I. I have long thought, like, I believe them, but I think it's maybe a little messier and more complicated than. And they're just kind of saying, yeah, it was all. And it's like, sure.
But like. Because what you could do, for instance, for Divine Gravity is that some of the parts are sung in the moment that you're seeing them on the screen. Like when her and Glinda are singing to each other in the tower. I fully believe that is them in that moment being recorded. No reason it couldn't be flying around in the sky.
Some of that might be. Some of that might be that she was still standing on stage somewhere singing while they were filming stuff and maybe filming her facial reactions that they're compositing onto the seat. You know what I mean? Like, there's just a lot of.
Because again, just knowing how movies are made, it's just you're not. Nothing is that you see in a movie is real, ultimately, because it's all pieced together from a million different takes and cuts and. And sound bites and all these different things and things recorded later. And it's just.
Yeah, I just think it's More complicated than what they say, but it is, again, probably broadly true. Anyways, moving on.
[00:31:43] Speaker B: I interpreted Elphaba's weird dance at the Oz Dust as her trying to take back control of the situation by starting her own musical number.
But she's awkward and upset and doesn't know what she's doing. She doesn't have Fiyarro's Rizz or whatever the kids are saying now. I could see that happening in the universe of a musical. It's clever and excruciating, but when Glinda steps in, it's beautiful.
[00:32:06] Speaker A: I had never interpreted it way, but I kind of love it like that as a musical number that, like, doesn't work.
You know what I mean? It's like an aborted musical number almost like this. Like. Yeah. And I was like. I had never thought of it in that context, but I kind of love it.
And that actually makes it make a little bit more sense to me because. Yeah. Like, what are these other musical numbers in the movie? Like, Obviously, like, these other musical numbers happen. This is that. Except it doesn't work because she's awkward and nobody's buying in. And you know what I mean? Yeah. It's actually really brilliant. I don't know if that's what they were going for, but I kind of like that as my headcanon now.
[00:32:47] Speaker B: At least I had the opposite. Read on Amma Clutch interrupting Glinda and Bok's chat. I think Alfie was broing Glinda out. Like, here, sweetheart, here's an exit strategy if you don't want to talk to our Peeping Tom anymore. Which begs the question of why she set it up in the first place. But that's the book for you.
[00:33:08] Speaker A: I could see. I could see either way. And I could even say, why did she set it up in the first place? Would be because she thought it would be funny. Like, Elphaba has a little bit of. Again, she spends the whole time just roast, like, riffing and roasting their interaction. And I think she just thought it would be funny. But also, maybe there is an element of. But she wanted like a.
A ripcord for Glinda of, like, if you want an excuse to get out of this. I also think my interpretation potentially works. Whereas if she. She's looking at it as like her showing up would help them get together. But I. What?
Shelby's interpretation makes a little more sense for Glinda's character.
[00:33:42] Speaker B: Or.
[00:33:42] Speaker A: Sorry, Elphaba's character.
[00:33:43] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah, I think so. As to why she set it up, I Feel like it's probably perfectly reasonable to assume that she might be. Like, this kid's gonna keep annoying me about this if I don't. Yeah. I might as well just do it and rip the band aid off and maybe he'll get over it.
[00:33:59] Speaker A: Yeah. She also doesn't particularly like Elphaba or, sorry, Glinda that much in this moment yet. Or does she? Yet. I can't.
[00:34:06] Speaker B: I feel like she does at this point.
[00:34:07] Speaker A: Okay. I can't remember where we could at this point.
[00:34:09] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:34:09] Speaker A: I couldn't remember where we were in the timeline of their friendship, but I
[00:34:14] Speaker B: was not expecting book Elphaba to actually be severely allergic to water.
Fiero is fine, I suppose. Keep him away.
[00:34:23] Speaker A: Do we know for sure that she is?
Shelby read the whole book?
[00:34:27] Speaker B: I think so. We don't. We maybe not. Don't know yet. We know she avoids water.
[00:34:31] Speaker A: She avoids water. I would say we know she avoids it, but I didn't know for sure if we like or concrete proof that
[00:34:36] Speaker B: she actually is like, yeah, Fierro is fine, I suppose. Keep him away from books and we won't have a problem.
[00:34:44] Speaker A: And like when he was stepping on
[00:34:46] Speaker B: the books and doing a little library dance.
See, Bach, this is why I never bother with you. When I play the wicked characters in the Sims, I just give Nessa a dog named Chicken and call it good. She's much happier that way. They deserve each other.
Our last comment on Patreon was from why do we Own this dvd?
And they said, I was in high school when this book came out, and my best friend, knowing that I loved the wizard of Oz, bought the book for me for my birthday.
Hard to believe. I read this thing 30 years ago, which is maybe why I don't really remember much about it. I was excited about the whole backstory concept, which I think in 1996 wasn't a thing like it is today.
But I think I was expecting, you know, Oz books. This was dark and different. And while the world building was interesting, which you talk a lot about in the episode, the book didn't make me feel, well, happy. Yeah.
[00:35:44] Speaker A: I mean, that's what I gather from the second half. And again, from what I know of the second half in the musical, I'm expecting not to be, like, super happy.
[00:35:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:51] Speaker A: With the whole second half of the book. But I'm interested to see if I still like it because I. Even though I don't think it's going to be happy, I think I might. Again, I kind of vaguely knowing where it's going. I Think I might be into what the book does, but we'll see.
[00:36:04] Speaker B: Fast forward 10 years ago when I saw it on stage in Los Angeles and I remember thinking, wow, this is way better than the book. Fast forward 18 years to the movie and I remember thinking, wow, this is better than the stage show. Do all of my opinions still hold up after so many years? Who knows?
But I have to give this one to the movie, even if it is recency bias. I haven't seen for good yet and I might be let down. And who knows, I still have my old copy of Wicked on my bookshelf and I just might have to sit down and give it another chance as a 47 year old.
Can't wait for the second part of this summer series.
[00:36:42] Speaker A: I will say this, I don't know if you went to college, why do we own this dvd, but you said you read it the first time when you were in high school and I would argue that that's not the time you should read this book. I don't think you would understand what this book is doing or at least again from where we are so far. A lot of the kind of like core central relationship stuff and kind of some of the thematic elements it's dealing with are pretty, pretty entrenched in having, in being like in your 20s or 30s. And so yeah, I think giving it another go, you might enjoy the book more than you recalled on the first through I agree.
[00:37:24] Speaker B: Over on Facebook we had three votes for the movie, one for the book, and one listener who couldn't decide. And that listener was Jasmine who said book for my head, movie for my heart.
[00:37:37] Speaker A: Fair.
That's kind of my answer. That's kind of where I was. That's, that's. I couldn't decide and that was basically my breakdown.
[00:37:45] Speaker B: Jane, who my aunt Jane said the book is heavy and dark. Movie, please.
[00:37:51] Speaker A: Not wrong, not wrong.
[00:37:53] Speaker B: Nathan said. I liked how Ariana made Glinda her own. I don't know how much of Glinda is written around Kristin Chenoweth. I believe a lot of it. Yeah, she was like involved in all the table reads and everything.
[00:38:05] Speaker A: Yeah, she was from the beginning.
[00:38:07] Speaker B: Or if she just happened to be to perfectly fit the role. But in the stage version of the show I saw it was someone doing a Kristin Chenoweth impression which wasn't unpleasant, but it was still much more enjoyable to have Ariana do her own thing.
I think it depends on what version you see. Some people do their best Kristin Chenoweth and other people. I felt like the one that we saw. She did a little bit more of her own.
[00:38:30] Speaker A: Yeah. I was gonna say the one we saw. My memory wasn't that I was like watching a Kristin Chenoweth impersonator. It felt more like watching. Which Zach's funny because I think I had that feeling when we saw Hamilton. I think I remember thinking the guy who played the king was doing an impression of.
[00:38:47] Speaker B: What's his name?
[00:38:48] Speaker A: Jonathan Groff.
[00:38:49] Speaker B: Jonathan Groff, yeah.
[00:38:51] Speaker A: And I felt like he was doing an impression of him. Whereas, yeah, from my memory of Glinda in the one we saw, which was just the traveling show of it or whatever, was that. Yeah, she was kind of doing her own thing and there's elements of Kristin Chenoweth in it, but it wasn't like, overwhelming.
[00:39:06] Speaker B: And I think you are kind of right in your suspicion that a lot of it was written around Kristin Chenoweth because she was involved in the making of this show from. Yeah, the very beginning.
[00:39:18] Speaker A: I actually have a note about that later that I'll talk about.
[00:39:22] Speaker B: Our next comment was from Shane, who said, I thoroughly enjoy both the movie and the book. Trying to set aside my knowledge wrapped in the book's entirety, plus the other three novels in Wicked Years, True Wicked Scholar here, the Wicked Years series, plus the spinoff series, Another Day. I think the first film is a closer representation of the first half of the book. And I definitely like Wicked, the movie, better than Wicked for good.
[00:39:51] Speaker A: That seems to be the consensus among critics as well. And most people have seen, like. And we'll talk about it here when I preview the movie, the second movie in a second. But yeah, generally, which is why we never saw the second movie. One of the reasons is that when I saw the reviews it was getting, I was like, we just kind of never ended up seeing it.
[00:40:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Even like, just the general, like pop culture buzz was like, everybody loved Wicked when it came out. It was huge. Jokes about it and everything were everywhere. And Wicked for good there was. It was just like.
[00:40:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
Which is funny because we actually predicted that, like, we were talked about, like, nobody's going to like the second one because it's the second half of the musical, which is not as good as the first. Bummer.
[00:40:30] Speaker B: Continuing with Shane's comment here, I personally still have to give it to the book. It makes the characters feel so real and fleshed out as well as the Land of Oz, feeling like this expansive lived in universe.
Also, as I first read the books in my late twenties during my journey into atheism.
[00:40:49] Speaker A: Also just, I mean, everything here. Yeah.
[00:40:51] Speaker B: And Taking politics much more seriously. The book just resonated on a level the movie could not and wasn't intended to.
[00:40:59] Speaker A: The movie's not even trying. And the stage play for that instance, not even trying to grapple with the religion and politics stuff, doesn't care about that at all, really.
[00:41:08] Speaker B: Definitely A little bit of the political stuff. A little bit of the political stuff, but definitely not the religion and even the political stuff.
[00:41:14] Speaker A: It's just the most like kind of surface level.
[00:41:15] Speaker B: Pretty surface, but.
[00:41:16] Speaker A: But yeah, it is still there a little bit. But yeah, I mean, yeah, reading this in your late 20s while you were becoming an atheist and getting into politics, I could see that this working for you.
[00:41:24] Speaker B: Then our next comment was from Nikki, who said movie, not even a question.
[00:41:30] Speaker A: Bam. There you go.
[00:41:32] Speaker B: And our final Facebook comment was from Ian, who said, my introduction to this was back in OH4. When I first arrived in the land of Oz, or Australia as some may call it, for university.
I passed a bookstore that had it in the shop window and thought, ooh, this could be interesting.
That first night alone in my dorm, I read it and nearly finished the book in one night. Which, as Brian said, being the college age, I was the target audience for this.
I must have reread this several times and consumed the subsequent series. This is not a light and fluffy story. When my partner had mentioned that she's seen TikToks about moms wondering if it's a good idea to buy Wicked for their nine year old kid, the answer is most definitely not.
I was somewhat hesitant about seeing the movie. Their marketing hadn't done itself any favors. But I bit the bullet and watched it and enjoyed it much more than I thought I would.
[00:42:27] Speaker A: Aw, look at that.
[00:42:29] Speaker B: While it's not the grim, dark version of the book brought to life, it's definitely the musical brought to life. Especially dancing through life. That whole sequence was just wow.
I had hoped we would see Fiyero's blue diamonds tattooed on his body. In a movie you can do more than on stage, but alas, one less Easter egg to put in.
I think in terms.
[00:42:48] Speaker A: I think it's to your point though, I think. I think that's an intentional choice to make Elphaba's greenness. Yeah, more.
More of an outline.
[00:42:57] Speaker B: Yeah. I think in terms of how they've done this movie and stage show, cutting Shell out was a good idea. Simplify the family in the next book. He is a major figure and since it's very unlikely they'll adapt books. Yeah, it makes sense. Cutting him out whilst I Do like Alfie's prickly nature in the book the self semi depreciating humor movie Alfie has I quite like Self deprecating humor movie Alfie has I quite like, especially in response to her green skin and the sarcastic speech she gives.
Reminds me of when people find out I'm half Cuban and they nervously say but you don't look Cuban. Why would you ever say that? Yeah, just nod.
Oh cool. And with a mischievous glint in my eye, I ask if they want to elaborate on that or mockingly exclaim, all my life it's been a lie.
People resist the urge to put foot in mouth. Yeah, if I were to compare this to the stage show, I would say the movie wins and that's because of dancing through life. But since you're asking about movie verse book, I will have to say the book first love and all that rereading it as much as I did throughout college. I do like a tragic figure and there's no one in this book series more tragic than her.
[00:44:13] Speaker A: I assume you mean Elphaba.
[00:44:15] Speaker B: Yeah, can't wait for the next episode. Will be interesting listening to your takes on how different the second part of the book is compared to the movie show.
The horror. The horror. The Elphaba's first word over on Instagram
[00:44:29] Speaker A: we have no that was awesome though Ian. Thank you. That was. That was cool. Great. I love when you chime in.
[00:44:34] Speaker B: Over on Instagram we had six votes for the movie, one for the book, and two listeners who couldn't decide.
Tim Wahoo said movies are always better. Sure, Corinneva said, I haven't seen the movie, but I remember when the book came out and it was super popular. So I read it and I remember thinking what the is this super? Not for me.
[00:44:55] Speaker A: I wonder how old you were when you read it. I'm just saying maybe revisit it if you read it pre college and now you're post college.
Maybe not.
[00:45:02] Speaker B: I don't know. Maybe not.
[00:45:03] Speaker A: It doesn't necessarily mean anything
[00:45:07] Speaker B: but a song Pod said hard agree on our assertion that the movie was better and it isn't because the movie is a musical.
[00:45:17] Speaker A: I assume they were musical podcasts maybe. Yeah, there you go.
[00:45:20] Speaker B: Over on Threads, we didn't have any comments. We did have one vote for the movie, but none for the book.
And finally, on Goodreads, I was interested
[00:45:30] Speaker A: to hear me I think I have We. We've done a musical before. I mean other than Disney. Have we done a musical other than Disney movies now?
Not that I can think of.
[00:45:39] Speaker B: Not that I can think of off the top of my head.
[00:45:40] Speaker A: I was so interested to hear Miko's opinion on a musical.
[00:45:43] Speaker B: Sure. I'm forgetting something.
[00:45:44] Speaker A: Yeah, there might be something I'm not thinking of.
[00:45:46] Speaker B: But Miko said I didn't really care about the movie. There are some nice moments, like Glenda joining Alphabet Dancing, but for the most part just didn't connect with the film. And most scandalously, I didn't even care for the musical numbers. I'm not a music guy. Okay, well, so. So I have a hard time putting this to words, but while the songs may be technically impressive, I'm not able to recall anything other than 5 second long snippets from them. And even those snippets are the repeated main lines from Popular and Defying Gravity.
[00:46:21] Speaker A: I mean, I will say that that is, I love the music in this musical, but it's also. I've always found it to be a cognitohazard, like a brain hazard where every time I watch the stage play or the movie or listen to the music, it gets literally just like, specific.
As you said, five to ten second long snippets.
[00:46:43] Speaker B: Specific snippets from the song stuck in my head forever. They're in my head for the next five to seven years.
[00:46:48] Speaker A: Like I was repeating like the loathing, like chorus over and over or I know it's not called loathing, but what is this feeling or whatever or. Yeah. Parts from Defying Gravity or it just.
Yeah. There's so many different parts that just get entrenched in my brain for like a week after watching it in a way that is, I'm not going to lie, kind of annoying. Like it is like, kind of like good.
[00:47:11] Speaker B: I like the music, but it is.
It's kind of annoying.
[00:47:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:47:15] Speaker B: I think the reason is that I care about melody more than vocals. And almost every song felt clunky, stopping and starting with bits that felt cobbled together from multiple different things.
[00:47:26] Speaker A: That's similar to what Kelly was doing.
[00:47:28] Speaker B: I wouldn't be able to hum along to any of the songs even if I wanted to. And I know that musical theater performances don't need to be catchy to be impressive, but I think in a movie, all the editing, retakes and post processing make even impressive singing less impressive than it'd be in a live stage show.
[00:47:45] Speaker A: Interesting. I will say when you say I wouldn't.
I wouldn't be able to hum along to any songs if it wasn't. I know musical theater performers don't need to be catchy to Be impressive.
If you don't find the music in this catchy, you're not gonna find the music in almost any musical catchy. Because this has, in my opinion, some of the catchiest music.
[00:48:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I do. I do feel like the music in this was like engineered in a lab to be catchy.
[00:48:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And there's other stuff like Hamilton obviously has and a million others, but I'm just saying, like. But this, it has. Has some of the cat. But I will. To your point, it is shorter sections, but I don't mind that. Like, I. Yeah, I don't know. I couldn't sing you or hum you the entirety of Defying Gravity, but.
[00:48:26] Speaker B: Oh, I could.
[00:48:27] Speaker A: Well, sure.
And you know, plenty of people could. I'm just saying that, like, I couldn't. But I love that song. It's one of my favorite songs in a musical ever. I don't know where I would rank it, but it's up there.
But I don't mind that. I like the whole thing because it does kind of. You get like the whole beginning part with the dialogue and then they get the little part with the unlimited part, which I really like. And. And like, there are different little elements. But for me what happens is like those elements are individually catchy in a way that just works. So like, sometimes the unlimited part will get stuck in my head, sometimes the end will get. The battle cry part will get stuck about. You know, I. I think it is very catchy. It's just in a different way than like a regular pop song. Like. I don't know. Yeah, but like. But for instance, I do think for like a song like popular or what is this feeling, those ones in particular kind of don't to me are standalone in a way that is a little bit different than this. They. They feel a little more like, can like contained like pop songs or something. You know what I mean? Compared to something like Defying Gravity, which has a whole bunch of different parts and movements and elements to it. Like, to me, like, what is this feeling?
Generally it's like that the song is what it is. And maybe, unless I'm misremembering a part where it of kind of diverts and does a whole different thing for a while. I don't think I am.
[00:49:50] Speaker B: No, I don't think so.
[00:49:51] Speaker A: So to that point, like, I think there are some songs that do kind of behave more like traditional pop songs or whatever, and other ones that do feel more like musical set piece numbers, which is what Defying Gravity is because it covers multiple different like, elements or like sections of the story.
[00:50:10] Speaker B: Also, I don't know why, but I was convinced we would get a Marvel style post credits scene of a house being carri by a tornado.
[00:50:18] Speaker A: I mean, you could have done that.
[00:50:19] Speaker B: You know what I think if this film had been made more in like the original run of Marvel movies back in like the 2010s, I feel like we might have gotten a post credits tornado.
[00:50:33] Speaker A: Yes, it did come out when post credit scenes were becoming a little more gauche. Like it was not as popular. Yeah, like we were kind of like, all right, everybody's kind of tiring of post credit scenes we don't really need. I mean, some movies still do them, but it's just not, not nearly the movement it was in. Like, yeah, 15 years ago. 10 years ago.
[00:50:51] Speaker B: The book was fine, but I think it was way more interesting than the film. My vote goes to the book.
[00:50:57] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:50:59] Speaker B: So our winner this time was the movie with 15 votes to the book's eight plus three listeners who couldn't decide.
[00:51:08] Speaker A: All right, I'm very interested to see how this goes on part two, but we will get to that when we get to it. Speaking of the book, we did discuss the book and the musical in our last prequel episode. So if you want to learn more about either of those, you can go listen to that prequel episode. But now we're going to preview Wicked for good.
[00:51:35] Speaker B: Alpha Withrop. I know you're out here.
Just come in before the monkeys spot you.
There's no going back.
[00:51:52] Speaker A: This is between us, the wizard and I. Wicked For Good is a 2025 film directed by Jon M. Chu, known for Crazy Rich Asians, now youw see me two Jim and the holograms, GI Joe retaliation, step up 3D, step up to the Streets and more. It was written by Winnie Holzman, known for Once and Again My so Called Life, the Wonder Years. And she also wrote the original book for Wicked. And Dana Fox, who wrote the Lost City, Cruella. Isn't it romantic? How to be single and Couples Retreat, among other things.
[00:52:20] Speaker B: And this is the same team from the first movie.
[00:52:22] Speaker A: I literally copy pasted this from the last prequel episode. I started writing it out and then I was like, wait, these are all the same people? I don't have to like do this again. I can just copy paste it.
The film stars Ariana Grande, Cynthia Erivo, Jonathan Bailey, Ethan Slater, Bowen, Yen Yang. I don't know how he gets credit.
[00:52:39] Speaker B: Yeah, he gets top billing every time.
[00:52:41] Speaker A: Billing in this when he's barely.
Also, I'm not A huge Bowen Yang fan. I think he's especially like, he plays the same. Anyways, it doesn't matter. But Michelle Yeoh and Jeff Goldblum. But it's crazy to me that he's gets like, what's her name? Doesn't the girl who plays Fanny especially
[00:52:58] Speaker B: for Wicked for good, because that's not at the school anymore.
[00:53:01] Speaker A: Unless he just has. Has somehow ends up having a more prominent role.
[00:53:04] Speaker B: Maybe they gave him a bigger part in the movie.
I don't know. We're in Florida.
[00:53:08] Speaker A: Find out.
The film has a 66% on Rotten Tomatoes, a 58 on Metacritic, and a 6.6 out of 10 on IMDb. It made 540.8 million against a budget of 150 million and was nominated for a couple BAFTAs and Saturn awards. But no Oscars this time, which makes sense. It actually doesn't make sense because I was like, well, why would it not be nominated for the Technical Oscars? Like, I understand that the movie is not as good as the first one, at least according to most people and critics. But, like, I assume the costumes and stuff are still just as good. But I can also see that they were like, all right, well, we already awarded you, like, a lot of the costumes are the same. A lot of the set design is the same. So, like, you got your awards for that already. Like, we're moving on. In April of 2022, before the first movie came out, John Chu announced that the adaptation would be split into two parts. And he said of this, as we prepared the production over the last year, it became impossible to wrestle the story of Wicked into a single film without doing some real damage to it. As we tried to cut songs or trim characters, those decisions became to feel like fatal compromises to the source material that has entertained us all for so many years. We decided to give ourselves a bigger canvas and make just not just one Wicked movie, but two with more space. We can tell the story of Wicked as it was meant to be told, while bringing even more depth and surprise to the journeys of these beloved characters.
Stephen Schwartz, the original composer of Wicked, echoed those comments, and he also confirmed that he was writing a new song for the film, saying, we found it very difficult to get past Defying Gravity without a break. That song is written specifically to bring a curtain down and whatever scene. To follow it without a break just seemed hugely anticlimactic. Even as a very long single movie, it required us cutting or omitting things that we wanted to include and that we think fans of the show and the story will appreciate.
What we have discussed is that changes need to be additive, to use producer Mark Platt's term. They need to add something to the story or the characters. They can't just be changes to do something different. I feel confident that by the time the movie is made, if we all continue to have the same degree of input, I could have a conversation with anyone who has a question about any of the changes made from the stage show and justify why I think it's better for the movie. End quote In November of 2022, Schwartz said that they would actually have two new songs that would fit into the expanded scope of the film.
And John Chu mentioned that Dorothy would have an expanded and more prominent role in the second movie than she does in the musical. The two songs that were written and added to the film are called no Place Like Home and the Girl in the Bubble with the former. The no Place Like Home was written in collaboration with Erivo. Principal photography was actually done alongside Wicked. They did the Lord of the Rings style kind of thing. It was shot in 2022 and 2023, then filming paused during the Sag Aftra strike strikes and then resumed filming in 2024 and wrapped up. But yeah, it was filmed at the same time as Wicked Part 1.
Chu had cited Steven Spielberg's 1991 film Hook as inspiration for some of the large scale sets and practical effects that you see in the film.
He also cited Pleasantville and the Truman show as influences on how Wicked and Wicked for Good would thematically portray the Land of Oz, saying, quote, it helps create this idea of the rebelliousness that this new younger generation are discovering. Covering how far will that take everybody in Oz? Throughout the course of the whole story of both movies, it's an awakening of a generation. You start to see the truth about things that maybe you were taught differently. End quote getting into some IMDb fun facts that I thought were interesting. The monkey that stole Glinda's pink jacket is wearing it when Madame Morrible is taken to the citizens of Oz. I assume this means maybe at the end of the first movie because she gets her jacket.
[00:56:44] Speaker B: Yeah, she gets her jacket ripped off.
[00:56:45] Speaker A: So I think look out for one of the monkeys wearing it that at the beginning of the second movie in the early devel and this is the other note that I wanted to mention that I said I would get to later an early development of the stage musical Stage Musical Back in 2003, Kristin Chenoweth had repeatedly requested a number for glinda in Act 2.
However, Stephen Schwartz never wrote one.
The original song, the Girl in the Bubble, finally gives Glinda a second act song.
[00:57:11] Speaker B: So I wonder if Kristin Chenoweth was salty about that.
[00:57:14] Speaker A: About that.
[00:57:14] Speaker B: Yeah, because I feel like I think I would be a little salty about it.
[00:57:18] Speaker A: And Kristin Chenoweth seems like the kind of person who might be a little salty about something like that. Yeah.
[00:57:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:57:22] Speaker A: At the opening of the film, the guard that runs through the tulip fields is played by a guy named Mark Eaves and he is the farmer that actually planted said tulip fields for both movies.
[00:57:32] Speaker B: Good for him.
[00:57:33] Speaker A: Dulcibear Elphaba's childhood nanny, who reappears in this movie, is inspired by a character from the novel but is never mentioned in the stage version. So I think I'm correct. This is iron to be trivia, but I think I am correct in assuming that that is based on Name Nanny and my last one. Before we get to some reviews here, Cynthia Erivo has confirmed that she knows what Ariana Grande whispered to her, but she will never tell which I was like, obviously she knows what she whispered. What do you mean? She has confirmed she knows what she whispered? I mean, unless she didn't whisper anything, right? Yeah, I don't even know what that means necessarily. I know it's the scene in the trailer. I've seen the trailer for this movie where she like whispers something in her ear or whatever. But. But I. And I assume it's a play on the poster because that movie, that moment's not in the musical, is it? Or is there a moment in the.
[00:58:17] Speaker B: I don't think so.
[00:58:18] Speaker A: Is it just like a play on the.
[00:58:19] Speaker B: Maybe on the poster? The iconic poster.
[00:58:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
So getting into some reviews, early reactions deemed wicked For Good superior to the first film and the second act of the stage musical with choose direction in the performances of Arivo and Grande lauded. Kevin Ma gave it four out of five stars for the Times and said it, quote, surpasses last year's box office smash and verve, ambition and emotional ache. But he did say there were several, several sluggish moments and less impactful music numbers such as the Girl in the Bubble and For Good I.
Saying that For Good is a less impactful musical number makes me wonder how they shot it or perform because that song, the first time I heard, that's the first song I ever heard from this musical. I was at a summer camp in like 2006, like an academic summer camp that I went to. And during one of the like Goodbye night things, they played for good. Played for good. I. I think two people might have performed it.
[00:59:21] Speaker B: Oh nice.
[00:59:22] Speaker A: I had never. I had no idea what Wicked was. I'd never heard of it. Like, I think at that point I don't think I had ever heard of it and that I remember I like cried listening to that song in that moment by like a couple like high school kids singing it or something like. Like that. And so I love For Good. I think it's an incredible song. I would be amazed to know that it's not impact. Again, I would have to see how they did.
[00:59:43] Speaker B: I mean, I guess if you're comparing it to like Defying Gravity maybe, I
[00:59:49] Speaker A: guess lesson it depends on what you mean by less impactful, I guess because I. I think it's one of the most emotion. Again, I love that song. I think it's gorgeous and super like sentimental and I don't know. Again, I have no idea. I haven't seen the movie yet, so maybe I'll agree.
Writing for the New York Post garbage rag of a. Of a.
Of an outlet, Johnny Oleksinski lamented the tonal imbalance caused by splitting the musical into two films. Buddy, I got news for you. There's a tonal imbalance in the musical. Like what? That's the thing. What are we talking about is I know you were one of the people, but I like the people who said splitting it doesn't make it. I'm like it already. The musical already has this issue. You're gonna have this issue no matter what you do with it. I think splitting it makes more sense personally. But the tonal imbalance caused by splitting the musical into two films, but found the darker and grimmer Act 2 to offer a far more compelling narrative with improved character arcs for Elphaba and Glinda compared to the bright and poppy YA boarding school story from the first film.
As a person who's not read the book or probably seen the movie, it sounds like.
Then in a negative review, Justin Chang for the New Yorker Booker A Less Garbage Outlet than the New York Post stated that the film is, quote, so cowed by its iconic predecessor, the 1939 wizard of Oz and the stage musical, that instead of building off authentically, it reacts with destructiveness, almost a petulant attempt to outdo what came before. End quote interesting. And then writing for the Irish Times, Donald Clark gave it a two out of five saying, quote, if you bought the film's the first film's brash visual aesthetic, the result of a giant toddler vomiting candy floss Walt Disney World, then you will be relieved to Discover it has got no less stomach. Unsettling. End quote.
Some people are stupid, including critics. I.
[01:01:41] Speaker B: I think. I think sometimes critics write bad reviews just to be writing bad reviews.
[01:01:46] Speaker A: It's what critics do and which I can appreciate and. And it's a thing that I've actually tried him to be better at is critics want to have an opinion. They want to have a point of view, same way Glinda does.
And so as a result of that, they feel the need. And I get it, because that's what people generally want to see. People don't like hearing, like, well, it was fine. Like, that's not a. That's not a. I want to hear
[01:02:09] Speaker B: you say something interesting.
[01:02:11] Speaker A: It's not an interesting opinion to hear. And I get that. So you get lots of shit like this. But there's.
The first film did not look like a toddler vomiting candy floss all over Walt Disney World. Like, I get if you don't like elements of how some of it. But it looked fine. Like, it looked. Looked fine. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. It's just. Yeah. So those are the reviews. As always, you can do us a favor by heading over to patreon.com thisfilmislit support us. Get access to bonus content. You can head over to Facebook, threads, Blue Sky, Instagram, Goodreads, any of those places. We'd love to hear what you have to say about Wicked. Katie, where can people watch Wicked for good?
[01:02:45] Speaker B: As always, you can check with your local library or if you still have a local video rental store, you can check with them.
Otherwise, you can stream this with a subscription on Netflix. This one's on Netflix, apparently.
We can double check.
[01:03:01] Speaker A: It was all I will say, I swear. I saw it on Peacock as well when I was looking up the first one.
[01:03:07] Speaker B: Because the first one was on Peacock.
[01:03:08] Speaker A: Yes, the first one was on Peacock. And I swear, when I was looking for it, I saw the second one on there. I thought I could be wrong.
[01:03:14] Speaker B: Or you can rent it for around $6 from Prime Video, Apple TV, YouTube, Fandango, Stream, or Flicks Fling.
[01:03:24] Speaker A: Flicks Fling.
Yeah. No, I'm excited to watch the second half. Yeah, I'm also.
[01:03:29] Speaker B: I'm excited, but not. I am interested. Yeah, I'm interested to see what they've done with it. And I do just want to clarify back before either movie came out, when I talked about I thinking it was a bad decision to make it into two movies because the second act of the film is such a bummer.
I know that that would still be an issue if they had squashed it all into one movie. I understand that that's an issue with the stage show.
My point was that if you have Wicked, the first act as a movie and then the second act as its own separate movie, people who don't know anything about the show are going to come to the second movie expecting what they got in the first movie. And what they get instead is a huge fucking bummer.
[01:04:20] Speaker A: Right?
[01:04:22] Speaker B: And they're not gonna like it. And oh look, I was right.
[01:04:26] Speaker A: True, true. But then I, but I guess you could argue to that point. Maybe they see if you do it as one movie, they're gonna watch that first movie and go, well, that was a bummer. You know what I mean? They're gonna watch the single. I don't know, I don't know if the point is, I don't know if there's a good solution.
[01:04:40] Speaker B: Yeah, there's really not.
[01:04:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm interested to see be because I, I, what I thought they would do is just make the second half less of a bummer, which is what I assumed they would might maybe do. But I guess you can't change it that much. Yeah, you don't want.
[01:04:53] Speaker B: I mean, we know how it ends. She melts, right?
[01:04:57] Speaker A: Or does she?
Anyways, come back in one week's time, we're talking about Wicked for good. Until that time, guys, gals, non binary pals and everybody else keep reading books, keep watching books movies and keep being awesome.
