Scott Pilgrim vs. the World

[00:00:04] Speaker A: This Film Is lit, the podcast where we finally settle the score on one simple Is the book really better than the movie? I'm Brian and I have a film degree, so I watch the movie but don't read the book. [00:00:15] Speaker B: And I'm Katie, I have an English degree so I do things the right way and read the book before we watch the movie. [00:00:22] Speaker A: So prepare to be wowed by our expertise and charm as we dissect all of your favorite film adaptations and decide if the silver screen the or the written word did it better. So turn it up, settle in and get ready for spoilers because this film is lit. We are Sex Bob OMB and we are here to make you think about death and get sad and stuff. It's Scott Pilgrim versus The world and and this film is Lit. Hello and welcome back to this Film Is lit the podcast where we talk about movies that are based on books and in this instance, graphic novel collections. We are talking about Scott Pilgrim this week. Before we jump into it, this is a little bit of a different format than our normal episodes. It's gonna be much more similar, basically identical to our summer series format because we both read all six of the Scott Pilgrim graphic novels for this. Normally Katie reads it and I don't, but this time we decided to both read it for a couple different reasons. Mainly I just wanted to because I like this movie a lot and so I wanted to read the graphic novel, so we decided to both read it. Also, there's a lot to cover, so having two people read it helped make sure we didn't miss stuff and misremember stuff because there's a lot of content in these six graphic novels. So we don't have all of our normal segments, but we basically do if it's a if you pretend it's a summer series episode. So we're gonna start like we usually do with Let me sum up. Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up. If you have not read or watched Scott Pilgrim vs. The World, here is a brief summary of the film sourced from Wikipedia. In Toronto, Scott Pilgrim, a 22 year old bass player for unsuccessful indie band indie garage band sex Bob OMB dates Knives Chow, a 17 year old high school student, to the disapproval of his friends in the band, his roommate Wallace Wells and his younger sister Stacy Pilgrim. Scott reads Ramona Flowers, an American Amazon delivery girl, at Julie's party after having first seen her in a dream. Scott loses interest in Knives but does not break up with her immediately before pursuing Ramona. When Sex Bob Omb plays in a Battle of the Bands sponsored by record executive Gideon Graves. Scott Scott is attacked by Ramona's ex boyfriend Matthew Patel. Sex Bob OMB's competition is incinerated by Matthew's fireball attacks, but Scott defeats him and learns he must defeat her remaining six evil exes in order to date Ramona. Scott finally breaks up with Knives, who blames Ramona and swears to win him back by becoming more like Ramona. Scott soon encounters Ramona's second ex, actor and skateboard junkie Lucas Lee. Scott defeats Lucas by tricking him into attempting a grind on a 200 plus step icy railing and crashing explosively. The band is soon asked to open for Clash of Demonhead, whereupon Scott encounters Ramona's third ex, superpowered Vegan bassist Todd Ingram, who is dating Scott's ex, Envy Adams, the lead singer of Clash of Demon Head. Scott deceives Todd into drinking half and half and Todd is confronted by the vegan police who strip and stripped of his powers, Scott then delivers the final blow. Scott then encounters Ramona's fourth ex, bisexual ninja Roxy Richter, and with the help of Ramona, he manages to beat her. Scott's growing frustration soon boils over and after an outburst regarding Ramona's dating history, she breaks up with him while leaving him a list of her exes. At the next Battle of the Band Bands, Sex Bob OMB defeats Ramona's fifth and sixth exes, techno twins Kyle and Ken Katayanagi, earning Scott an extra life. Despite this, Ramona appears to get back with her seventh and final ex, Gideon. Sex Bob OMB accepts Gideon's record deal, except for Scott, who quits the ban in protest, during which Young Neil is promoted from roadie to bassist. Gideon invites Scott to his venue, the Chaos Theater, where Sex Bob OMB is playing. Resolving to win Ramona back, Scott challenges Gideon to a fight for her affection, earning the power of love Sword Garrett Knives interrupts the battle, attacking Ramona and Scott is forced to reveal that he cheated on both of them. Gideon kills Scott and Ramona visits him in limbo to reveal that Gideon has implanted her with a mind control device. Scott uses his one UP to come back to life and re enters the Chaos Theater. He makes peace with his friends and challenges Gideon, this time for himself, gaining the power of self respect. Sword after apologizing to Ramona and Nice for cheating on them and accepting his own faults, Scott's Scott joins forces with Knives and they defeat Gideon. Now free from Gideon's control, Ramona prepares to leave after the Fight. Scott is faced by his darker version, Nega Scott, who with whom he hits it off Knives, accepts that her relationship with Scott is over. And at her encouragement, he leaves with Ramona to try again. That is a summary of the film. We got lots to talk about. So much to get to. We're gonna start with Better in the book. You like to read? [00:05:14] Speaker B: Oh, yes, I love to read. [00:05:17] Speaker A: What do you like to read? [00:05:20] Speaker B: Everything. [00:05:21] Speaker A: So, like, a summer series. The way we're gonna do this is that we have the stuff that we thought was better in the book, the stuff we thought was better in the movie, and then the stuff that the movie nailed. We're gonna go back and forth. You'll see how it works. But we're gonna start with Better in the book and just talk about all the stuff that we preferred in the book or stuff that we didn't like in the movie, that kind of thing. So my first note was that I thought. And this goes away after the very first one. [00:05:44] Speaker B: Yes. [00:05:44] Speaker A: But very early in the first book, when they play, like, their first song, when Sex Bob OMB plays, like, their first song, we actually get the chords and the lyrics to the song, like, printed in the book. [00:05:56] Speaker B: You can play along. [00:05:57] Speaker A: Sex Bob omb. Yes. Which was something that V for Vendetta did at parts. At least at one part in that, which I thought was fun, and I liked that. I thought that was neat. It does go away. They don't. It doesn't repeat ever again after that. But I thought it was gonna be a recurring thing, which I thought could be neat, that you could, like, play the songs as you were reading. But no, it doesn't go from there. But that first one. It definitely. It does. And to be fair, I don't know how many other songs we even really hear. [00:06:23] Speaker B: Yeah. I was gonna say the band itself also becomes kind of progressively less important the more that we, like, the further we get into the series. [00:06:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Another thing that I thought was funny is that when after Scott meets Ramona, and again, we're gonna jump pretty quickly through, so we don't have a ton of Better, so we're gonna skip through things pretty quickly after he meets Ramona. Or actually, it's not after he meets Ramona. I think he sees her. Yeah, he sees her in the library. And he met her at the party at this point, too. [00:06:53] Speaker B: No, I think he sees her in the library first. [00:06:57] Speaker A: But no. Cause I think he's already talked to her at the party once. Yes, he sees her at the library first. Then he sees her at the party, tries to talk to her. That doesn't work out. And then I think he. [00:07:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I think. I think it's after the. At the party that he learns she delivers for Amazon. [00:07:11] Speaker A: That's what I mean. [00:07:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:12] Speaker A: So he has spoken to her anyways. It doesn't matter. But in order to. To get to have a chance to talk to her again, in both the book and the movie, he finds out she works for Amazon as a delivery person. And he orders some CDs. And in the book specifically, it was mentioned that he orders them from Amazon Ca. Because this takes place in Toronto in Canada, and that's obviously the Canadian domain for Amazon. But in the book, they're talking about how Amazon is essentially is exclusively just a place to buy, like, books and music and media, basically. And that was all they sold. Cause this was back. I don't know if people, you know, younger listeners may not be aware of this. Amazon started as an online bookstore. It was basically Barnes and Noble online. And then they added, like, other media, movies, CDs and stuff, and then everything. But. Yeah, so I thought that was funny, seeing that it's. This was. You know, I always. It's one of the things that I kind of forget about from time to time is that that was how Amazon began. Probably the. And this is a big one for better in the book. Probably the thing that. The best thing that the book does that the movie does not include much of are the flashbacks. And specifically Scott's flashbacks. Cause we actually get a little bit of Ramona's, like, backstory in the movie. But we get basically none of Scott's flashbacks in the book throughout. I kind of just combined it all together. Cause there's a bunch of them throughout all of the books. [00:08:38] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a recurring literary device that these use. [00:08:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Which are always denoted in the graphic novel. And the movie does a similar. Well, the movie does Ramona's flashbacks by having them be in the style of the graphic novel as they're drawn. Yeah, but in the graphic novel, you know, it's a flashback. If the frames are. Have this, like, black border on them, basically that denotes like a flashback, whereas the rest of it doesn't have that. But in those flashbacks, we get to see a lot more of Scott's backstory, specifically his relationship with Kim and some of his other, like, failed relationships with Lisa, who's another character who in the book that we'll talk about who is not in the movie at all, and Envy and their whole relationship, specifically. I thought seeing Scott's relationship with Envy made him a slightly more sympathetic character earlier on because there's one scene in particular in one of the graphic, I don't remember which. I think it's like the third one, maybe, where we get a flashback to them dating in college or. [00:09:37] Speaker B: Yeah, they dated in college. [00:09:39] Speaker A: And he, like, tells her that he loves her and she does not reciprocate. And there you. There's just. There's this tension and dynamic in their relationship that it's clear that Scott was way more invested in their relationship than she was. And you get a little bit more of an understanding for why. Scott is kind of the reserve, like the selfish asshole that he is throughout most of the story. [00:10:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:03] Speaker A: In. In regards to relationships. And it gives you a little bit of context for that. And I. Which I. Helps make Scott a less detestable character because I think that's one of the things that people have the biggest problem with with both the book and the movies, or specifically the movie, but also with the books, is just that Scott sucks. [00:10:22] Speaker B: Yeah. He's not a great guy, which is the point. [00:10:25] Speaker A: The graphic novels are aware of that. The movie is very aware of that. It's literally the whole point. But I think even with it being the point, people still find him just annoying and obnoxious and not a protagonist that they care about. Some people, which I can kind of understand. But I think the book does go a pretty long way of helping at least give some context for that, so. [00:10:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. The flashbacks and the expanded backstory were an aspect of the books that I really appreciated. I think that context really helps explain who the characters are and why they act the way that they do, particularly, like you said, Scott. And then later on, we also get a little bit more backstory for Ramona. That kind of helps flesh her out a little bit as well. [00:11:15] Speaker A: Yeah. I also really like seeing more of Kim. Kim just has a much more expanded role in the graphic novel, which is one of my other favorite things, because I like her character in the movie. I've always liked her in the movie, played by Alison Pill. And just the way she virulently hates Scott and always calls his shit out, I thought was fun. And then seeing more of the. The context for that and their relationship and why that is the way it is. But then also the resolution of their relationship in the graphic novel, I think works pretty well. I think it works okay in the movie, but you just don't have. [00:11:48] Speaker B: Yeah, you don't have that context of, like, the years of their friendship. [00:11:53] Speaker A: Yes. [00:11:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Because they had been friends since high school. I mean, they dated in high school. And maybe my biggest beef with the movie, I think I have this note later, but I'll just go ahead and say it now, is that I do think the movie shortchanges Scott and Kim's relationship 100%. [00:12:11] Speaker A: I would agree with that. That I do think that is probably the movie's biggest shortfall. And then one other thing that we'll get to here in a second, but one thing that is in the. I think it's in the second or third. I can't. Again, I'm not gonna try to remember where these. Which books. [00:12:25] Speaker B: They were also kind of hard to take notes on because they don't really have page numbers. [00:12:30] Speaker A: They did eventually, but the first few do not have page numbers. And then some of the later ones do have page numbers, but not on every page. Yeah, it's where they, like, have room for them. But, like, I'm looking at volume two, it does not have page numbers. So I don't know. I don't remember which one they started on. So, yeah, there's not really page numbers. And then also it's. The story just continues. So it's hard sometimes to remember which part happened where. So I'm not going to try to, like, cite which book this all happened in, but in one of them, pretty early on, we get a fun step by step recipe for vegan shepherd's pie narrated by Stephen Stills. [00:13:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:06] Speaker A: Which I thought was fun. You literally, literally could. Although you would have to kind of know how to cook already, as I was reading through it. You couldn't do this as, like a teenager, like, doesn't know how to cook. I don't know if you could follow these instructions, but I could follow those instructions and make a vegan shepherd's pie. So I thought that was fun. [00:13:23] Speaker B: Yeah. An exchange that I really liked in that scene because they're all, like, having dinner together. They're, like, cooking dinner together, this group of friends, which I think is really nice. But they have this exchange. They're like, oh, we're making vegan shepherd's pie. And somebody else is like, who's vegan? [00:13:40] Speaker A: And then I think it's Ramona, because Ramona there. [00:13:42] Speaker B: Yeah. I think she's like, new to the group at that point. She's like, well, who's vegan? And they're like, none of us. We just like to be inclusive. [00:13:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:13:54] Speaker B: Another thing that I really liked in the first volume, I believe, and we. We do see this character in the movie, but we don't really interact with her. [00:14:05] Speaker A: And she has a lot of the same lines. Yeah, she does the same thing. She's just in a few. This in fewer scenes. [00:14:11] Speaker B: Yeah. But specifically when Knives is break up dyeing her hair after her and Scott break up, her best friend Tamara, or Tamara is there with her, and she says, like, I should have copied this. [00:14:31] Speaker A: I'm pretty sure this is in the. [00:14:32] Speaker B: Second one, but it's first or second. I don't remember. [00:14:36] Speaker A: I don't think they break up in the first one. I don't think, but I don't remember. [00:14:40] Speaker B: So they're talking about Scott, and Tamara's like, maybe he's just a jerk. [00:14:45] Speaker A: Yes. [00:14:46] Speaker B: And I was like, see? Tamara gets it. She gets it. Yeah, I had a note. And then later on in that same scene, Knives is like, do you think he was too old for me? And she goes, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:15:03] Speaker A: She just, like, bluntly calls out the bullshit in a way that is very funny. I had that same note about her being like, maybe he's just a jerk. And Knives, like, no, that can't be the case. That's not it. That's not what it is. [00:15:15] Speaker B: Just a jerk. [00:15:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I thought that was very funny. [00:15:22] Speaker B: Another little detail, like, kind of character backstory detail that I enjoyed in the book is that Envy starts going by the name Envy because her initials are nv. [00:15:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Which I bet you could probably find out in the movie if you paid super close attention to details. But because they definitely refer to as Nat at times in Natalie. So you know, her first name is Natalie. But, yeah, I don't know if you ever know what her last name is and if you would ever figure that out. But they explicitly in the novel say that, yeah, she used Envy because Natalie, Whatever her last name was for her initials. [00:15:59] Speaker B: Another thing that gets left out of the movie. Well, the movie mentions that Todd Vegan. Todd Vegan. [00:16:07] Speaker A: Todd. Envy's current boyfriend. [00:16:09] Speaker B: Envy's current boyfriend punched a hole in the moon for Ramona when they were dating. [00:16:15] Speaker A: Yeah. We get that backstory in the movie where we. In the graphic novel flashback Y thing, we see that happening. And she mentions that. [00:16:21] Speaker B: Yeah. And I. I appreciated the way that the movie truncated that whole scene. [00:16:27] Speaker A: That was my note for this. Like, overall, yeah, that was what I had for this. [00:16:31] Speaker B: But I did think the moment realizing that Todd punching a hole in the moon for her was not actually special was a good moment. [00:16:42] Speaker A: Yes. Because. Well, it's revealed that Todd also punched a hole in the moon for Ramona. Or is that first. [00:16:50] Speaker B: Yes. [00:16:50] Speaker A: And they say specifically in the graphic novel, and they're like, oh, is that why the moon has the two big craters in it? Or whatever on the side we can see? And they're like, yeah, I don't disagree that. I thought it was funny that, like, that. That there was some good character work for, like, Todd there and, like, who he is as a person. The fact that he had done that exact same thing for Ramona and then he did it for Envy, so, you know, he used the exact same kind of ploy for both of them. I did think that it was a little, like. I don't know. I wasn't a huge. I thought cutting some of that stuff out was just. Were good edits because I just thought it was like, something about how that conversation played out just felt really awkward and clunky to me. And I was like, I'm glad the movie cut this. I don't remember exactly why I would have to go find it. [00:17:36] Speaker B: Overall, the section, the part of the book with Todd and Envy, I think is very clunky. Like, overall, I agree it kind of meanders and drags out for no real reason. [00:17:47] Speaker A: Yeah. I will say, though, one of the things that the graphic novel does have that I did really like and the movie very truncates this incredibly, is the goodbye, like, after he defeats Todd, the resolution of him and Envy's relationship. I thought the awkward goodbye with Envy in the book was a lot more interesting and, like, it gave them more time and resolved that relationship in a way that I thought just felt better. Whereas in the movie, she kind of leaves and disappears and she's never in the movie again. She's in actually, like the rest of the graphic novels, like, she keeps showing back. Well, she disappears for a while, but then she shows back up again in the final graphic novel with work. Kind of working with Gideon a little bit. But I thought, yeah, I really liked their goodbye in the graphic novel and the fact that he lets her keep his sweater. And I thought they just had a very nice, like, parting in the novel that the movie kind of gives them, but it's just very quick and not. Doesn't really spend much time on it. [00:18:49] Speaker B: My next note here is actually a criticism of the movie. [00:18:53] Speaker A: Yes. [00:18:54] Speaker B: And I thought that Roxy, like, orgasming as she's defeated was. [00:19:01] Speaker A: Yes. [00:19:03] Speaker B: A choice. [00:19:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I had the same note. I. So that happens. A similar thing happens in the graphic novel because they truncate the whole Todd fight and everything. There's this extra fight. There's a Bunch of extra stuff, obviously, in the books, but one of them is this fight between Envy and Ramona. That is not in the movies. [00:19:25] Speaker B: No, not at all. [00:19:26] Speaker A: Not in the movie, singular. And they. In that fight, Scott helps Ramona by doing the weak spot attack to Envy, which is the thing that Ramona tells Scott to do in the movie, which is like poking her in the back of the knee or whatever. [00:19:45] Speaker B: Yeah, poking the back of the knee. That's like her. [00:19:47] Speaker A: That's like her weak spot. [00:19:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:49] Speaker A: They're off. [00:19:49] Speaker B: Switch. [00:19:50] Speaker A: And. And he uses that on. He has. I think he tells. Or he uses it on Envy in the book and then explains it to Ramona. And in the movie, Ramona tells him about it and he uses it on. Yeah, Rock Roxy. And I completely agree, because in the movie. In the book, when he does that, it just like. [00:20:08] Speaker B: She just, like, falls. [00:20:09] Speaker A: It, like, knocks her out. Almost like a Vulcan neck pinch or something like that. But in the movie, they make it so that she literally orgasms to death. Is like, seemingly what they're going for there, which I agree. I was not a big fan of. And it gets to something we'll talk about later, which is just kind of the. The weird fetishes. Fetishization. Oh, I can never say that word. Fetishization of bisexuality generally. But just like the sexual politics of this movie and. And the. And. And the stuff like, revolving around queerness and all of that is its own whole thing. And we're going to talk more about that later in the Odds and Ends and kind of get into some of those things. But I think this is one example of that where it's like, yes, sure, the one woman or who is a. An evil ex and who is bisexual, of course, she is defeated by something sexual and orgasming to death. It just. It does feel like. Okay, you know, it feels a little. I mean, it's exploitative and weird. Yeah, Completely agree. [00:21:17] Speaker B: I think that Scott getting into Ramona's purse and riding around in it like a little dog should have been in the movie. [00:21:23] Speaker A: I was so surprised when I saw that. [00:21:26] Speaker B: I was not. She has, like, a bag of holding. [00:21:29] Speaker A: Yes, she does. [00:21:30] Speaker B: In the book. [00:21:30] Speaker A: Yes. Which also seems to access the subspace kind of. [00:21:35] Speaker B: It's like a portal dimension. Bag of holding. And at one point, she. I forget even who they're being attacked by. [00:21:42] Speaker A: I think they're fighting. Roxy, maybe. I think it. No, it's either Roxy or Envy. It's one of the two. It might be the Envy fight. Maybe that one where he. Because I think it is the Envy Fight. Because in the Envy Fight where Ramona is fighting Envy, Ramona is using this big hammer, which is what we see Roxy using later in the movie. Roxy uses a big hammer. Whatever. Anyways, I think it was in the Envy Fight where It doesn't matter. But yes, in one of the fights he hides in. [00:22:11] Speaker B: Yeah. She, like, tells him to get inside her purse and they. She runs away and he's, like, sticking out of it. [00:22:18] Speaker A: Yeah. His head is like a Chihuahua. It's very funny. Yeah. There's this visual gag in the book that I thought was really funny is that the. They get tricked into going to this party to play, like, a concert, and it ends up being a trap by the Katayanagi Twins in order for them to, like, defeat him or whatever. But we see the poster, like, that was advertising this party that they were going to be playing at. And this is after the fact, after the party has happened and he got attacked by the robots at the party or whatever. Because in the book, all of the fights are much like more drug out, because a lot of them take place kind of over the course of, like, an entire book. [00:22:59] Speaker B: Yeah. We're kind of interacting with that X for the entirety of the book for some of them. [00:23:03] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And like, in that one, for instance, there's, like, a bunch of, like, intermediary fights where he. They're sending, like, these robots after him to attack him or whatever. And one of them attacks him at the party. And the poster we see afterwards, they're like, oh, maybe we should have realized this was a setup. And they show the poster, and the poster just says, a robot will kick Scott Pilgrim's ass while you watch, which I thought was very funny. And it just has a drawing of a giant robot and. And Scott, like, with X's on his eyes or whatever. I thought that was a fun gag. In the book Scott and Ramona have. When they break up in the book series, one of the times they kind of have a falling out, they have this incredible. Which is right after this party, actually, which is why I have this. Here is him and Ramona and Kim get really drunk together, almost have a threesome, which just in there for no reason. Yeah. But they have this. Ramona and Scott go home, and they're laying in bed together, and they have this incredibly painful drunk conversation where, like, Ramona calls him a bad person and alludes to breaking up, but they're both way too drunk to be having this conversation. And, boy, I. It was slightly triggering because I have been in moments like that in past lives where you are too intoxicated or whatever, and you're like, having this horrible conversation, but you can't really even. Like they're like half falling asleep while they're doing it because they're. And I just. Oh, my God. It was so. I was like, this is something that Bryan Lee o' Malley has done before. The way he captured that. That is clearly somebody who's experienced that before, because I thought the book captured it incredibly well. And there's not really anything like that in the movie. They do have a drunken fight in the movie, but it's at the bar, like, right after the Roxy fight. And it's very short and it's. It doesn't nearly capture the same level of, like, awkward patheticness that the book does. I thought it was really funny that in one of the books, Scott drops in kind of a last. Right after Ramona is like, well, we need to break up or whatever. Scott drops Backstreet Boys lyrics to try to. In a last ditch attempt to stop Ramona from breaking up with him. I think this is in the. The fifth book. Cause that's the one right before they break up. I think he bursts into the room as she's getting ready to leave, and she's sitting on the bed, and this is when she starts glowing and then disappears. Which in the book, she can glow and disappear starting in book five. That just comes out of nowhere. We'll talk about that later. But he busts in and he's like, ramona, I love you, okay? I love you here and now. I don't care who you are or where you're from or what you do, as long as you love me. Is that NSYNC or Backstreet Boys? Whatever. [00:25:50] Speaker B: I couldn't even tell you it's one of. [00:25:52] Speaker A: Whatever. It's one of them. And I thought that was funny. I'm sure there are more lyric references throughout the book. [00:25:58] Speaker B: Probably. Yeah. [00:25:59] Speaker A: Because there's. I'm sure music is like a huge running thing. But that was one that I did catch that I thought was funny. [00:26:07] Speaker B: Another thing that we both missed from the books was Gideon the cat. [00:26:11] Speaker A: Yes. [00:26:12] Speaker B: Ramona takes in a stray and names it Gideon. [00:26:17] Speaker A: Yes. [00:26:17] Speaker B: After her ex. [00:26:20] Speaker A: And she's like, look, this is how I process things. Okay? [00:26:25] Speaker B: But there are some really cute scenes after they break up and Gideon. [00:26:30] Speaker A: Ramona leaves. [00:26:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Gideon gets out the window. And there are some really adorable scenes of Scott trying to lure him back, putting food out in the yard and just sitting there watching one of them. [00:26:43] Speaker A: In Particular that I thought was really cute is we get a little montage of those scenes and then in one of them, Gideon does show up, but he has fallen asleep in the bushes and is just laying there asleep while Gideon is eating and then disappears again. Yeah, I thought those scenes were fun. It also I think is meant to kind of illustrate the idea that. Cause a big part of the graphic novel and the movie is about maturing, growing up, realizing your faults, becoming a better person, all that sort of stuff. And I think the Gideon the cat subplot is in relation to Scott. The Gideon the cat subplot is illustrating the fact that he's learns to take care of another creature and the like. Initially he doesn't really like the cat or doesn't really care about the cat at all. And then the cat disappears and he realizes he wants the cat around and he like. And then so he has to start trying to figure out how to like take care of it. And then it does finally show up and. Yeah, so I thought that was a lot. Yeah, I like that subplot in the book. I understand why it's not in the movie. I don't know if there would be. I mean, they're not. [00:27:44] Speaker B: I mean they're not broken up long enough. They're really. For that to happen. [00:27:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Because. Yeah, that's the other thing in the book. The book takes place over a lot longer of a time period than the movie does. The books do. They're at one point between like five and six when they break up. It's been months. Yeah, it's multiple months between when they broke up and when book six starts. I mentioned earlier that envy does not disappear from the story after her Todd is defeated in the books like she does in the movie. And there was this fun scene where she shows up in the big climax at the end. Her band is performing at Gideon's club and she makes her appearance by descending from the heavens dressed in this gigantic butterfly. [00:28:24] Speaker B: This insane costume. [00:28:26] Speaker A: Butterfly costume. And I was like, man, we really missed out on not having Brie Larson descend from the heavens in that. Just any more of Brie Larson's envy that we could have gotten in this movie would have been fine. But. [00:28:40] Speaker B: A little moment in that like climax fight scene that made me actually like laugh out loud when Scott comes back to life. [00:28:50] Speaker A: Yes. Cuz Scott has been stabbed. [00:28:51] Speaker B: Yeah, he gets stabbed and killed. And then he uses his. Uses his bonus life that he got earlier. Kind of similar to what we see in the movie. Similar. Ish. To the movie. Similar ish he uses his bonus life and he, like, pops back to life inside the club. And when he does that, we see his sister Stacy on the phone saying, sorry, mom, false alarm. [00:29:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, because she had called. Yeah, she had called the parents to inform them that Scott was dead. And then they're like, oh, never mind. She's like, nevermind, it's fine. Which that would have been a funny gag in the movie. I'm surprised they didn't. [00:29:23] Speaker B: I honestly am. [00:29:24] Speaker A: Well, it's. I mean, so we. We mentioned this in the prequel, but for people who don't know, this movie was released right around the time the fifth book came out and before the sixth book came out. Like, before the sixth book was even written. [00:29:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I think he was writing the fifth book while they were making the movie. [00:29:41] Speaker A: While they were making the movie and then the sixth book. So. And that happens, obviously, in the sixth book. So if they were gonna put that in the movie, they would have had, like. Maybe that's just something Brian Lee o' Malley thought of long after the movie. But it would have been very funny. And I think Anna Kendrick would have. [00:29:57] Speaker B: Oh, she would have killed that single line delivery. [00:30:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I thought this line was incredible. In the graphic novel that doesn't make it in the movie, when they're fighting Gideon at the end, they team up. Ramona and Scott team up to defeat Gideon at the end, and they kind of have this. Their big fight and they have this back and forth, and towards the end of it, Gideon says to them, he goes, you know, like, oh, you can defeat me, but that doesn't matter because you're your own worst enemies. And they both respond and go, no, I'm pretty sure you're worse, which I thought was very funny. And then they do this sick ass anime slight where they. They like. Yeah, like both, like, rush through them and like, slice them in half and cut them into pieces, which I thought was fun. [00:30:44] Speaker B: So the movie does a lot of, like, reconciliation work in the 11th hour during the climax. [00:30:54] Speaker A: It's the other, like, the biggest weakness of the film is that all of that is crammed into, like, a big action climax at the end. This feels very rushed. [00:31:02] Speaker B: And in particular, Scott's reconciliation with Knives. Yeah, I understand why it's part of the climax in the movie because we don't have the benefit and space of six entire books worth of character development, particularly for Knives, I think. But I'm not sure that it works as well as the movie wants it to work. [00:31:27] Speaker A: Yes, I would agree with that. It's also it depends on which part you're talking about. Are you talking about, like, when they're talking in the. On the pyramid or whatever and he, like, apologized to her? Are you talking about afterwards, like, when they're walking out and then she is like, go get her or whatever? [00:31:41] Speaker B: Honestly, all of it. [00:31:43] Speaker A: Well, so one thing is that, and we. I think I mentioned this in the prequel, is that that whole ending was reshot and changed because to be more in line with what the graphic novel ended up being. Doing the original ending for the movie, he ended up with Knives. From my understanding. [00:31:59] Speaker B: And see, knowing that makes it makes a lot of sense, like, given the way that the climax goes down and the way that they, like, work together during it. [00:32:07] Speaker A: I think, to be fair, I think. Well, so I think everything inside the club probably is from the original ending, if I had to guess. But then everything from when they leave the club and they're like, walking down that alley. That was probably all reshoots, I think, based on. Because that would work because they're kind of. Him and Knives are kind of together when they leave the club. And then it just immediately is like, oh, never mind. And I think that's because that's the reshoot. [00:32:36] Speaker B: It also is like, crazy to me that the movie decided to go that direction initially. [00:32:42] Speaker A: Have him be with Knives. [00:32:42] Speaker B: Yeah, crazy, Insane, Wild. [00:32:44] Speaker A: The correct answer is nobody. If you're gonna like, yeah, like the. [00:32:48] Speaker B: Correct, like, narrative movie Hollywood ending is Ramona. [00:32:53] Speaker A: Sure. Yes. That's like the traditional Hollywood ending. The correct, like, probably like, best moral ending. [00:33:00] Speaker B: Yeah, best moral ending is no, everybody's. [00:33:03] Speaker A: On their own and because they're all need to figure their out or whatever. Like, that's probably the actual best ending is like, Scott isn't. Doesn't end up with anybody and nobody ends up with anybody other than maybe some ancillary, like, secondary characters. But like Ramona, Knives and Scott are all probably single at the end of this. And then maybe there's an inclination that, like, Scott and Ramona, like, are gonna go on a date or something, which is kind of what the movie's going for. I think it's like, well, let's try again. Which is sport. That's how the graphic novel ends. But I agree with you. The whole ending with Knives is a mess. One thing I did really like, though, even in the reshoot ending is I did like having Knives kind of realize her self worth in that ending by having her not end up with Scott when they're walking out. And then she's like, hey, what are you doing go get her or whatever. And then Scott goes after. It's cheesy and, like, whatever. But I do like in that scene where Knives is like, I'm too cool for you anyway. And I think Knives, at that point has realized that, like, this loser doesn't. I shouldn't be with this guy. He shouldn't be with me. This isn't gonna be a healthy relationship for a number of reasons. And so I liked that for her. But it does still lead to kind. [00:34:22] Speaker B: Of a. I mean, absolutely. I like that line, and I'm glad that she has that realization in the movie. I just don't think that the movie was able to do any of the character work to believably get her to that point. [00:34:37] Speaker A: I would agree. Yeah. Whereas the book does kind of. We have a lot of extra scenes in there of her kind of. Although I have my own issues with the whole way that her plotline so many times in the book, which I don't think I have a note about this anywhere. There was a time where I'm like, I thought we had already resolved all this with Knives, and it felt like it was just being trudged back up again for no reason. [00:34:59] Speaker B: It really. Yes, I totally agree. [00:35:00] Speaker A: And I'm like, wait, didn't we already resolve all this? But now she's back as a minor antagonist again. Even though I thought we had already taken. And that. You don't have that issue in the movie. But it does. You have the opposite issue, which is just. It feels like we go from, like, you know, her being very hurt and trying to deal with her feelings to her just, like, getting over it and being fine, like, immediately, basically. [00:35:24] Speaker B: But, yeah, I felt kind of similarly about Nega Scott in the movie. [00:35:29] Speaker A: Oh, I have a lot. Yeah. [00:35:30] Speaker B: And I don't even really particularly have strong feelings about what the book does with Nega Scott, but I just don't think it works. [00:35:39] Speaker A: No, I agree. I agree. I think. So in the movie, the Nega Scott, he defeats Gideon, and then Nega Scott in Ega shows up, which is, like, negative. Like, he's like the. [00:35:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's a reference to earlier when they were playing the arcade game. [00:35:56] Speaker A: Yes, in the movie. [00:35:57] Speaker B: Yeah. In the movie, the Nega ninja or whatever shows up and Scott's like, oh, I can never defeat this guy. [00:36:03] Speaker A: Yes. Whereas in the books, we have seen this mysterious figure, dark figure, following Scott a few times over the course. I was reading some stuff about Nega Scott on, like, Reddit and stuff, and people were implying that he was way More set up than I felt like he actually was because I feel like he only kind of shows up like once or twice, like in the book, right before. [00:36:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I don't think that's also my memory. [00:36:26] Speaker A: I don't think he's seated as much as maybe some people think he was, but whatever. But in the movie Nega Scott shows up. He's. He is like the evil, evil alter ego of Scott basically. And in the movie the joke is that like he has to fight him and defeat him. He's the final boss. And then it just cuts and they're walking out together like friends. They're like buddy, buddy. Which is a funny gag. [00:36:50] Speaker B: Yes. [00:36:51] Speaker A: And kind of works in its own way, alluding to a similar thing that the book gets at. But I do really prefer the book's version because in the book Nega Scott shows up while Scott. At one point Scott goes on a wilderness retreat up to the north. Kim has left Toronto to go back to her parents or whatever to get away from everything, and he goes to visit her and get away from it himself. And while he's up there out in the wilderness, he encounters Nega Scott, who is his evil alter ego. And this is in the fifth book, I think. Or maybe the beginning of the sixth. [00:37:26] Speaker B: Book, I think, I think it's in the sixth book, I think it's the. [00:37:28] Speaker A: Beginning of the sixth book. And in the book what ends up happening is they don't just become friends. He actually fuses. Nega Scott fuses. [00:37:39] Speaker B: He like accepts his shadow self. [00:37:41] Speaker A: He accepts his shadow self and when he does that, he then remembers and recognizes all of the bad he's done because there's been a running kind of gag slash thing in the book that whenever people talk about like Scott's past, he only remembers positive things. [00:37:59] Speaker B: Yes. [00:37:59] Speaker A: Or, and. And he has like a, A rosy view of his past. [00:38:04] Speaker B: Yes. A very selective memory. [00:38:06] Speaker A: Or he just says he doesn't remember that at all. Like when he. Yes. So he has this very selective slash rose colored view of his past. And when he fuses with Nega Scott, he then remembers and he is like realizes all of the bad things he's done. It is the symbolism of him coming to terms with the fact that he has been a bad person in the past, that he has done shitty things and that he needs to embrace those. He can't hide from them, he can't ignore them. And so he fuses with Nega Scott. And it is kind of the most important thematic thing. [00:38:36] Speaker B: Yeah. I would honestly say yes it is maybe the most important thematic moment in the books. [00:38:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And now I will say people, I was reading a subreddit thing about this and people were dumping on the movie for saying that the movie just completely gets rid of all of that and Scott faces no kind of self reflection or anything that like, like, like he does in the book. And I don't think that's true. I think the movie absolutely tries to have Scott take responsibility and apologize and do all of the things that he does in the book after he fuses with Nega Scott and realizes all of these things about himself in the movie that happens after he dies and comes back and then goes back through everything. He realizes he needs to take responsibility and he apologizes to Kim, he apologizes to Ramona and Knives. Yeah, they don't find out about him cheating from Knives saying it or whatever he tells them. And he does take ownership of his problems, but it doesn't have like the same kind of thematic resonance that the book does with that moment where he fuses and realizes all of this stuff about himself. It all happens very quickly in the movie and it just kind of like, okay, I guess he realizes he needs to be a better person now, like because he died or like it's not nearly as fleshed out as the book. [00:40:00] Speaker B: Yeah, and it is. And it's interesting too, considering when the last two books were written, like, because we don't even know like what Brian Lee o' Malley had planned. [00:40:13] Speaker A: Yes, he clearly had. Because what we know in the making of the movie, and I'm sure this has gone into much more detail, there's the 20th anniversary Blu Ray and stuff came or 10th anniversary Blu Ray or ray or whatever came out a few years ago. And I'm sure there's documentaries and stuff and they're talking about like what they knew for the ending because supposedly Brian Lee o' Malley was very involved in the making of the movie and was gave them notes, like, here's what I'm kind of planning for the ending. You know, I have like this idea where he has to confront Nega Scott. Like, so I'm sure they had like, okay, he's got to have this confrontation with Nega Scott. But maybe Brian Lee o' Malley didn't really know what that looked like yet. He just knew he wanted to have that confrontation and that at that point they like, he realizes he need. Probably literally what he might have said is he has this confrontation with Nega Scott and realizes that he needs to embrace that part of himself. And they're like, okay, well, let's have him be friends. That. Like that. You know, I can see them getting. [00:41:10] Speaker B: I could see that. Yes, absolutely. [00:41:12] Speaker A: Getting to what the movie does in kind of a roundabout way based on, like, a loose interpretation of what maybe that he thought he might do in the graphic novel. [00:41:21] Speaker B: And who knows, maybe he thought he might do that and then changed his mind. [00:41:25] Speaker A: Yeah. But 100. It is much better in the book that. That confrontation. And just the. Like I said, just the way. [00:41:34] Speaker B: It is much more thematically resonant. [00:41:37] Speaker A: Yes. Which is. It's definitely the way. But we'll get to this more later. I have more notes about it. It still doesn't work that well. [00:41:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:44] Speaker A: All that being said, it's not like the movie's version is like a huge butchering. Butchering of this incredibly profound, like, character. [00:41:53] Speaker B: It works a little better. [00:41:55] Speaker A: It works a little better in the graphic novel. And. And also, I think people undersell how much the movie does depict Scott learning and growing. I think it's. You forget it. In all of the chaos of the end of the movie, you kind of forget that Scott does go in and take responsibility and say, no, I suck. I'm sorry I did this. He does do all that stuff. It's just done very quickly in Edgar Wright style, and then we fight a bunch more. So it's like, okay, it doesn't have kind of the same time to breathe and the resonance that the graphic novel does. So I agree with that. And like I said, it is the biggest kind of flaw of the film compared to the movie, in my opinion. [00:42:38] Speaker B: Speaking of room to breathe, another thing I appreciated in the graphic novels was that Scott, we see him eventually mature enough to get and keep a job. Job. Yes. [00:42:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, he gets a job as, like, a. Washing dishes. [00:42:50] Speaker B: Yeah, he gets a job washing dishes. [00:42:52] Speaker A: Steven Stills restaurant. [00:42:53] Speaker B: And then at the end of the sixth volume, it seems like they. He's either moved up or they started their own thing. [00:43:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:03] Speaker B: I would have to go back. [00:43:04] Speaker A: It's the same restaurant, it looked like to me. But. [00:43:06] Speaker B: But he's, like, moved up from being a dishwasher by the end. He's doing, like, line prep or something like that. [00:43:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:14] Speaker B: And my final note here is that I really liked the moment in the final battle in the book where Ramona stands up to Gideon. [00:43:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I do wish that we had gotten that. [00:43:26] Speaker B: Yeah. I really. I think that final climax and, you know, knowing what the original ending was going to be, obviously this was in service of setting up Scott and knives. We kind of shortchange Ramona. During that last scene, she gets, like, pushed to the side. Damsel in Dist. But in the books, she stands up to him. And a line that I particularly liked was, part of me does still feel like I belong to you, but the other parts of me are finished with you. [00:43:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I loved that part. And there's a great visual with that because they're in the subspace highway in her bag or whatever. And there are all these different versions of Ramona standing behind her as she says that, which I thought was really powerful and really cool. And that is maybe the other big criticism of the movie is that Ramona is. It's interesting because I have opinions both way. There are things I like more about Ramona in the movie than I do in the book, but she is a much less dynamic character in the movie than she is in the book. She is not. And she's partially because she's just given less time. And to be fair, the movie is about Scott. It is not about Ramona. She is a main character, but she is not. It's about him and about his character arc and his growth. Being said, I do think that she ends up being a bit of a prop in that final act of the movie in a way that she's also kind of that in the book. But she gets a little bit more of time to shine for herself in the. In the books than she does in the movie. So. All right, those are all of our notes for better in the book books. It's time now to find out what we thought was better in the movie. My life has taught me one lesson, Hugo, and not the one I thought it would. Happy endings only happen in the movies. [00:45:18] Speaker B: Right off the bat, close to the beginning of the movie, a line that I really thought was funny. [00:45:23] Speaker A: Yes, I understand. [00:45:25] Speaker B: When Knives first goes to band practice, she sits down on the couch next to Young Neil and says, what do you play? Meaning an instrument, and thinks he's, like, in the band. And he's like, oh, Zelda, Tetris. It's kind of a big question. [00:45:46] Speaker A: I had that same note. That's kind of a big question. Got me. So I'd forgotten that joke. I'd forgotten that line. And boy, yeah, it sent me during that same scene. This leads right into the opening credits, and there's this incredible camera move there where they start playing and Knives is just, like, blown away. But then we get this incredible dolly back as. I don't know if it's a. It can't be a practical effect. I don't think. But the camera dollies back and the living room, like, it's starting on like a wide shot of the band. And the camera dollies backwards and the living room, like, stretches. [00:46:20] Speaker B: Yes. It looks really cool. [00:46:22] Speaker A: 100Ft long. And then we. We get like, Knives and Neil sitting on the couch, like, pull into frame and it's just such a cool shot. And it's like. I was like, oh, yeah, man, I. I knew this. So, as I've said, I've watched this movie a bunch back in the day. I haven't seen it in probably at least five years. I don't remember the last time I watched it, but holy shit, this movie just has the sauce like it. And then we punch into the opening credits with the music and it's just from moment one, the movie is on the gas pedal all the way. And it's just incredible. [00:46:56] Speaker B: Scott's whole thing with Pac Man Puckman. [00:47:00] Speaker A: Yes. [00:47:01] Speaker B: And him like, telling this story to Knives and getting it out all suave, and then he tries to do the same thing to Ramona and he just can't pull it off. She's not impressed by him. [00:47:11] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, I had the same thing. Because he. That is not in the book at all, either with Knives or Ramona. In the, in the movie or in the book with Ramona, he talks about, like, her shoes or something like that. But I love it because it's. It's that perfect, annoying trivia thing that it's the exact kind of fun fact that obnoxious nerds learn that they think will impress other people. And it does. It works on a 17 year old, but it does not work. And he realizes, he even knows going in it's not gonna work, which is why he falls all over himself when he's trying to use it on Ramona, because why would she care? But it is that exact kind of obnoxious nerd thing that you learn and think you can impress people with. And I'm not saying I've been guilty of doing that in the past, but I may have been guilty of doing that in the past. [00:47:58] Speaker B: I mean, I think you've either been that person or you've been on the receiving end of that. Or maybe you've been both. [00:48:06] Speaker A: Yes. [00:48:07] Speaker B: There's another little moment in the movie that I think does a lot of heavy lifting character work really early when Scott and Knives are playing. They're at the arcade and they're playing. It's not. It's not Dance Dance Revelation, but it's. [00:48:24] Speaker A: Like a fighting game version of Dance. [00:48:26] Speaker B: Dance. Yeah. It's a similar style game, but it's. [00:48:28] Speaker A: Like a fighting game. Yeah. [00:48:30] Speaker B: And the game ends and he gestures for Knives to put more money into the game. Cause he's like this purple, perpetually broke loser slacker. And it tells us so much in just like three seconds. [00:48:47] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And the fact that she like immediately is like, oh, yeah, of course. She just wants to please him and is willing to do anything to make him happy and blah, blah, blah. And he is just this loser who. Yeah, pathetic loser. Exactly. I also love this little detail. Is in the book Knives or Scott does show Knives, like where he grew up. He like takes her be Ramona. In the book, he shows one of them. I think it's Knives. He shows her where he grew up and he takes her to. To his house, which is just somewhere in Toronto or whatever. But in the movie we have the exact same scene, but they make the. The note of. They go to his apartment. Yeah, they like walk after the arcade. They walk to his apartment and she's like, well, can I, can I go inside and see it? And he's like, no, it's kind of like a no girls allowed space or whatever. And he goes, do you want to see where I grew up though? And she goes, yeah. And he just turns around and he goes, that's it. And it's the house literally right across the street. Which again does so much work to explain the kind of person Scott is. Such a fun gag. Highlighting the Arrested Development pun intended. There incredible casting on that regard. Michael Cera in Arrested Development. Yeah, highlighting his arrested Development that he has not grown, he has not changed. [00:50:07] Speaker B: He walked across the street. [00:50:08] Speaker A: He moved out of his parents house and moved in right across the street because. Yeah, that's where he's at in life right now. [00:50:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Where he basically loafs off of his friend's generosity. [00:50:20] Speaker A: Yes. [00:50:21] Speaker B: Speaking of, I love that. Then when we meet Wallace in this scene, other Scott is in bed with him. [00:50:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Which other Scott does show up eventually in the books as a boyfriend of Wallace, I think. But yeah, I liked introducing him right away here and just having him pop up in bedroom with them because they share a. Scott and Wallace share a bed because they're so broke and well, they don't have room for another bed as well because the apartment is so small. [00:50:48] Speaker B: Funny, I realized while we were rewatching this movie that I had friends in college who lived in this exact same apartment. [00:50:58] Speaker A: Like style apartment. [00:50:59] Speaker B: Like style apartment. [00:51:00] Speaker A: Mattress on the floor that they share. [00:51:01] Speaker B: It was not on the floor. They didn't have an actual bed, probably because it was two women and not two men. But they lived. Shout out. Lori and Alexa lived in, like, a basement. Like a one room basement apartment. And they shared a bed because there was only room for one bed. [00:51:19] Speaker A: I also lived in a one room basement apartment, but I was by myself. So. Yeah. So when Scott goes to the party in the movie, he's trying to find Ramona because he knows she's supposed to be there. Like, he'd heard that she's gonna be at this party. [00:51:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:33] Speaker A: And so he's going around asking people, but he asks Como who's one of the obnoxious in the movie. He's the guy with the glasses who's always saying something obnoxious like, oh, the. [00:51:47] Speaker B: And it took me that entire scene to figure out where I knew his face. Face from. He was in New Girl. [00:51:52] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. He's one of the. Yeah, one of the people. New Girl. He's shown up in a handful of things over the years. That actor Scott goes up to him and is like, do you know this girl? And he holds up a drawing of Ramona. And I read in the. In the. When I was doing research for the prequel notes, and I don't think I included this, but I read that originally he was supposed to hold up a drawing of Ramona from the graphic novel. Like, a drawing that looked like her in the graphic novel. But then I think Michael Cera drew that drawing of her. And it's ridiculous if you've seen it. [00:52:23] Speaker B: Yeah, it's just like a scribble. [00:52:24] Speaker A: Yeah. And he. And they thought that was so funny that they just used that instead. But I love that he holds it up and Como still knows who it is. He goes, oh, yeah, that's Ramona. And I just thought that was so funny. The movie kind of nailed this, but I thought it actually improved it just because of the way it's edited and shot and everything. But when they get to one of the shows, it's the first show where Knives and Ramona are both there where he's like, hey, come to my show. And he realizes he invited both of the girls he's kind of dating to the same show. And they show up and they had. There's this big moment in both the book and the movie where they, like, get there and Knives shows up and, like, kisses Scott right after. He just introduced Ramona to everybody as, like, his friend or whatever. He hasn't said they're dating, so. But they have this big standoff where, like, Knives kisses them and then, like, Ramona looks at Knives and then, like. And everybody in the scene just, like, looks at each other, like, figuring out what is going on here. Like, Stacy and Wallace and all of them, like, look around and they're, like, parsing what is happening here. And it's incredibly fun. It's funny in the graphic novel, but it's. It's the exact same thing where we get a bunch of these close ups, like, almost like an old west shoot out. Like a standoff. Like a. We get these, like, super tight close ups of all their eyes as they, like, look around at each other and, like, try to see who realizes what is going on here. And then the movie nailed it, but also elevated it because. Which I have that note a lot, which is just. We'll get to it later. [00:53:52] Speaker B: But yeah, I really appreciated that. The movie immediately sets up Gideon and the Chaos Theater and we just, like, go straight into this battle of the bands kind of plotline. [00:54:05] Speaker A: Yes. [00:54:05] Speaker B: Because one of the worst things about this series was how much it meanders. [00:54:10] Speaker A: Oh, yes. Yeah, 100%. Which I'm sure I could imagine not minding. Maybe if I was reading this in high school or something, maybe I would care about it. [00:54:18] Speaker B: If I was reading them as they came out and it was like a year later and I was like, oh, boy, time for a new Scott Pilgrim. I would probably reading them all back to back. That was rough. [00:54:30] Speaker A: There is a lot of just. We're just kind of doing this now. It does meander a lot. Lot. And you. In a way that this feels like killing time sometimes. [00:54:40] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:54:40] Speaker A: Which I don't think it is. I don't think that's not. I don't think I'm confident that wasn't like, what he was doing. But it does kind of come off that way, especially having seen the movie first. We were like, all right, we can get through this a little quicker. But I agree. I. I thought setting up, making their show because in the. There is no battle of the bands thing in the book. That's not in any of the books. That's not a thing. There might be, like, one at some point, but it's not a recurring thing like it is in the movie. [00:55:06] Speaker B: Yeah, the movie kind of uses that as like a background structure to structure. [00:55:11] Speaker A: To set up why they keep running into these bands and why they keep having shows. And it sets up Gideon. Because the whole premise is that Gideon is going to get. Well, they call him G Man at this point. He's not Gideon yet. [00:55:21] Speaker B: We don't Know, he's Gideon. [00:55:22] Speaker A: Yeah. He's just G man, but he's this producer who is going to give the winner of this Battle of the Bands tournament a record deal. So that's kind of the sets up our Big Bad without us really knowing and gives us a goal that we're working towards. I think it gives a lot of structure that helps quite a bit. A little detail in the movie that I thought was hilarious is that at this first show, Neil, who is not part of the band, he's like the roadie slash group Tag Along. [00:55:46] Speaker B: He's their biggest fan. [00:55:48] Speaker A: He is their biggest fan. He is sitting in the wings as they're playing their first song in the movie Garbage Truck, and he's like. Like, sitting on a. On an amp, like, singing along. And he gets the lyrics wrong, which is such a funny little gag. This guy who is like, the one person who is around and has heard all of their songs 8 million times, because he literally, like, lives with them or whatever. I think he lives with Stephen at the time, maybe Stephen and Kim, I can't remember. But yeah, he. He gets the lyrics wrong and he's like, oh. And he. I just thought, that's so funny. A little detail that I thought was a very, very subtle change, but I prefer in the movie. I could also understand somebody preferring the book's version, but I like that in the book, everybody is just immediately on board and nonplussed by Scott, suddenly, like, fighting people to the death in the middle of, like, a concert or whatever, and they're like, immediately like, oh, that guy's here to fight Scott. He's gonna get his ass kicked because Scott's the best fighter around. They act like this. That just happens, and, like, is normal. The movie also does that, but it adds a slight layer where they're initially a little confused, and then they're like, ah, whatever. And then they just go on with it. That, I thought, added a layer of, like, comedy and also brought us as an audience. Like, it acknowledged our confusion briefly for them. [00:57:15] Speaker B: Like, okay, yeah, yeah, no, I. I agree. I. And I never in a million years would I have bought Michael Cera being described as the best fighter in the province. Yeah, so that's fine. [00:57:31] Speaker A: Yeah, well. And when they say that in the book, you're just like, wait, what? Yeah, he's the best. Why would he be the best fighter? We have no reason. Like, and we don't ever really even get any backstory of him why he would be a good fighter. [00:57:43] Speaker B: There. There is one of, like, part of the backstory with Kim. [00:57:49] Speaker A: Yes. [00:57:49] Speaker B: We find out. I forget what book it's in, that he has to, like, fight a bunch of guys because she's been kidnapped. And he, like, fights all these guys and then fights this other guy to get Kim back. But then, like. And later on in the sixth book, we find out that maybe that's not actually really what happened. [00:58:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:09] Speaker B: So unclear on that backstory still. [00:58:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is fine because the movie doesn't go into it either. The movie, he's the best fighter in the world, and they never explain why. And I don't need them to explain why. It's fine. It's the premise of the thing he's talking about. [00:58:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Because the story really just, like, you have to commit to this kind of video game sensibility where there are just boss fights. There are just boss fights for no real reason. [00:58:34] Speaker A: Yeah. But like I said, I did appreciate that in the movie, we get shots of Stacy and Julie and stuff being like. And Ramona, like, what? Yeah, like, what's going on here? Well, not Ramona. She knows. [00:58:47] Speaker B: Yeah, she knows. [00:58:48] Speaker A: Yeah. But everybody else, like, what's going on here. Whereas in the book, they just seem like, oh, yeah, this is normal. And that brings me to a thing that is better, a broad thing that is better in the movie, which is just the fight scenes. And I say that it's a very slim thing because the movie literally just captures all of the best frames from the graphic novel fight and then makes them move basically, like, all of the best. Still, so many of the fights in the book are just visually translated directly into the movie. But then we get all of the rest of the fight that was around that single page or whatever of, like, a cool action pose or something. We get that cool action pose, but then we get the rest of the fight that goes with it. And it's all really cool fight choreography. I talked about in the prequel that the fight team was. Was two of the people from, like, Jackie Chan's, like, fight choreography team. Which you can tell. I could tell because I was like, I know a lot of these moves from Jackie Chan movies. I recognize these from seeing these in Jackie Chan movies. But it's. It's really good choreography. It's really fun. It's shot really cool. Like. [01:00:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:01] Speaker A: Which is. We'll get more to that later. Everything is shot cool in this movie. It's of all any of this movie's flaws. It not being shot well is not one of them. It is. It is just masterfully shot shot. But some of the fight Scenes are just incredibly cool. And I really like the way they mix, like, stunt doubles with, like, actually Michael Sarah. And, like, it's very seamless in terms of, like, there are times where I'm like, is that actually Michael Sarah doing all of that? Because he's doing some of it and because he did a lot of training for it and stuff. But then other times you can tell, well, clearly that's not Michael Sarah when he's doing all these flips and stuff, but the way that they edit it together to make it, like, they do a lot of, like, cowboy switches and stuff like that, I think where they're. Which is just a thing where, like, somebody goes out of frame for a second and then the other person comes in and, like. So it's like a stunt double briefly, and then it's not a stunt double and all that kind of things. And I. I was. I just. Every fight scene is so much fun and. And so well choreographed that as good as. They're still a lot of fun to read and look at in the graphic novel, but it's hard to compare to, like, watching them in the movie, in my opinion. A little gag in that first fight scene with Matthew Patel that I thought was funny is that after they're. They're having all this conversation, and this happens in the book where Scott turns to Ramona, who's sitting up in the balcony and is like, you really went out with this guy? And she explains the backstory in both the book and the movie. But in the movie, there's this fun additional gag where when he says that to her, whoever's on, like, the lighting system at this concert swings a big spotlight around onto Ramona and you hear, like, the creak of the light spinning around and on her face, which is a very fun little gag. And then I think it's right after that. But one of the. After one night of partying or something, Scott is laying at home in bed, and Wallace gets home from whatever club or whatever he was at drunk. And that scene happens in the book very, very similarly, including him, like, falling drunk into bed. But there's this one specific moment in the movie that cracks me up every time, where he just hucks his keys at Scott and they just hit him in the fucking head while he's laying in bed. And I don't know what it is about that, but the way Kieran Culkin acts that scene cracks me the fuck up every time. The way he just launches those keys at Michael Cera's head. [01:02:22] Speaker B: A little visual that I loved shortly before Scott breaks up with Knives. They're out, like, at a thrift store, and she says, I'm in love or something like that. And the word love, like clouds, which is. [01:02:40] Speaker A: That's in the book. The cloud. The love cloud word. Yes. But then. [01:02:43] Speaker B: Yeah, but then he, like, fans it away from us. [01:02:46] Speaker A: He's like, yeah, because right before he breaks up with her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. Well, it's actually not right before he breaks it, but I think it's a scene before. But then at one point they go to the arcade and again, this. This is the kind of classic Edgar Wright, like, environmental joke storytelling stuff that he does so well that, like, no other writer, director, in my opinion, like, does this, at least not that I've seen the way he does where he incorporates this kind of stuff. And I. Maybe some people don't care about it or think. I think it's really fun and clever. But they're playing. They're back at the arcade playing. And this is right after that love scene, I think. And he's, like, thinking about breaking up with her. And they're at the arcade playing the game and we get the. They. They get defeated by the Nega ninja or whatever again. And the. The. The continue timer is counting down on the game and it's like, would you like to continue? 10, 9. And this is at the exact moment where Scott is contemplating breaking up with her. And so he's thinking about it and the game is like, would you like to. And it's just those kind of little details. It's just. I'm like, God, how do you. It's just so brilliant. And again, I don't know. [01:03:56] Speaker B: It's just. It is. It's genuinely fun storytelling. [01:04:00] Speaker A: It's just like, oh, my God, how do you. It's so clever. It's so. And it's just. Yeah, like. And that's one of those things. Like, even if you don't like the story, you have to appreciate, in my opinion, the. Like, even if you don't like Scott and you don't like his arc and you think, like, whatever. All of that stuff. Things like that. I don't know how you can watch that and be like, yeah, meh. Like, whatever. Like, that stuff is so clever and so, like, it's just such a clever way to tell a story and to, like, incorporate. It's just. It's so much fun. And. Yeah, I just. I love stuff like that. And good Lord, every Edgar Wright movie is full of shit like that. It's. It's One of those things where Edgar Wright is, is always one of his movies are always ones that benefit from seeing them several times. Because a lot of that stuff you will never. There's stuff that I didn't notice. I have a note about here in a minute. Minute. There's stuff that I never noticed. I've seen this movie a dozen times. There's stuff I noticed this time that I didn't notice a dozen times before when I saw it. So one of which was, and I don't think I ever noticed this watching the movie, but I didn't notice this. [01:05:04] Speaker B: Until I read your note. [01:05:05] Speaker A: Yeah, it does happen. And it doesn't happen in the graphic novels. At least I didn't notice it. Which is that at one point we see Ramona skating. She rollerblades everywhere. [01:05:13] Speaker B: Yeah. To do her deliveries. [01:05:14] Speaker A: To do her deliveries. But they're in Toronto and there's snow all on the ground a lot of the time. And I never really thought about it. But in the movie we see this moment where she like she's talking to Scott and she needs to leave and she rollerblades away and wherever she rollerblades the snow melts underneath her. [01:05:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:31] Speaker A: Which is I thought was just a fun little detail because you're thinking about like how is she rollerblading around a snow covered Toronto? Well, there you go. She melts the snow everywhere she goes. The little Seinfeld parody in the movie does not come from the book and is fun. It's a, a two set, like ten second little bit in the movie where Scott comes in to the Seinfeld theme and there's like this, it's a very sitcom y moment that I thought was a lot of fun where he's like bragging about getting the second place with Ramona and Wall Wallace is just like, oh my God, what's wrong with you? This is one of the things that I had never noticed watching this movie that I did this time is that we were introduced to Lucas Lee who is the second evil ex played by Captain America himself. [01:06:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Chris Evans Evans. [01:06:19] Speaker A: And he's introduced in this by Wallace is watching one of his movies on TV because he's, he's in, he's. Wallace has a crush on him because he's this hot movie star and he's going to be in Toronto filming a movie, but he's watching this movie and in the movie that we see in the movie that he's watching on his TV is Lucas Lee is like in this phone booth and it's this action scene. Where he, like, dials with his gun. And then, like, the camera does this big 360 dolly around the phone booth. As he, like, picks up the phone is like, I'm coming to get, you know, like this badass. Whatever he gets, delivers his big badass line. And then it cuts from that. And because Scott. And we see that as Scott is leaving to, like, go somewhere. Scott then leaves. And then we cut to Scott in a phone booth calling Knives. [01:07:08] Speaker B: Yes. [01:07:09] Speaker A: And we get the exact same camera move that we just saw. And I didn't ever even notice that they do the exact same camera move with Scott that they did with Little. Again, it's. I'm sorry, I can't do this. People, people, this is my first time I've gotten to talk about a Scott or an Edgar Wright movie on. On main, on here. I've talked about. We talked about whatchamacallit in a bonus episode last night in Soap, which is a far less Edgar Wright. [01:07:37] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. [01:07:38] Speaker A: Movie. [01:07:39] Speaker B: This movie, I feel like, is peak. It is, right? [01:07:41] Speaker A: It 100 is. It is. Yeah, absolutely. But also another thing that's better in the movie, and we'll have it here, is basically everything with Lucas Lee is better in the movie, pretty much every single bit of it but one. Starting with his introduction. In the movie, he is introduced by him getting on there. They go up to Casa Loma, which is this real castle in Toronto, which is in the book. And that staircase is right there near that castle, that big, long staircase in Toronto. Both of those are in the book. And the movie set takes place in the exact same spot. He's filming a movie there. And in the movie, we see him come out of his trailer, and it's set to the Universal opening theme. And he cracks his neck in time with the Universal drums or whatever. [01:08:25] Speaker B: The neck crack killed me so good. [01:08:29] Speaker A: Just again, little things like that. I don't know how you can't watch this movie and just laugh your ass. Like, how do you not, like. Do you not love that? How. I don't get it. It's so good. And then I love the. There's a little joke where they're filming and they're all standing there, like, watching in the crowd and they're filming. And then all of a sudden, Lucas Lee starts, like, pointing into the crowd and yelling, and he's yelling at Scott, and Scott's like, wait a second, is he talking to me? And there. And Wallace is like, yeah, I think so. And he's like. Like he's famous. And he talked to Me. And it's. I just. It's so good. [01:09:08] Speaker B: A big thing in this scene that's not from the books is the addition of a stunt double team for Lucas Lee. I thought that was incredible. Fantastic. [01:09:18] Speaker A: Such a funny gag. Yeah, the whole stunt double fight. Because in the movie or in the book, he just. It's just him. There's not even. It doesn't even seem like. They say he's filming a movie. He's there to film a movie, but in the graphic novel, he's doing just, like, sitting on a bench. Like, when they get. He's just like, there, like, there. You're like, what? Okay. Whereas this. He's clearly filming a movie. And yeah, the whole stunt double fight. He. He has to fight all of his stunt doubles. But in particular, I was dying at the line. They. They. The way they introduced the stunt doubles is like, he's standing there and Scott is, like, yelling at him and, like, following him. He. Like, they were fighting briefly or something, or arguing. And then, like, Lucas Lee starts walking away from him, him. And Scott's, like, chasing after him to, like, yell at him. And he turns him around and it's a different guy. And he's like, wait, what? And then Chris Evans shows up and goes, ah, that's my stunt double. Sometimes I let him do the wide shots when I feel like getting blazed in my Winnie, which is such a funny line. Oh, my God, it's so good. And then the. The. The fights do end similarly. There's a lot more fight of the fight in the movie, but the way they end is very similar, which is that Scott does goad him into grinding down this ridiculous set of rails that is a real staircase in Toronto. But they add this little detail in the movie where he's like, you think you can do a grind on that thingy over there? Or whatever. And he's like, man, these rails are garbage. Or whatever. And he's like, well, if you can't do it, you can't do it. And he's like, look, man, I could do it. And then Scott goes, there are girls watching. And there's this quick little moment where. Cause Lucas Lee is looking at Scott, and he goes, there are girls watching. And he just quickly. His eyes shift up into the distance and then back down to Scott, and he's like, all right. And there's, like this heartbeat sound effect when he does that little eye shift. It's. Ugh. It is. It's brilliant. It's perfect. I love it. [01:11:16] Speaker B: A little detail I enjoyed in the movie When Ramona finally gives Scott her phone number, she hands him a piece of paper. And there are seven X's underneath her phone number. [01:11:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes. And I had just. Generally, there's a bunch of X imagery in the movie that shows up before the X's ever even do. And that's one of them. But we see this one, like, kind of aerial shot of Scott walking home, and there's, like, this X path in the snow that he's walking through. There's another one where we see him walking down the street and there's like, these. I think he might be walking past a railroad or something. Something. But there's, like, these street light things hanging up that have these, like, yellow X's on them. And. And there's a bunch of those throughout the movie where we get this X imagery kind of setting up what is coming a little bit. A little gag that is in the movie that just is not in the book at all, is he's standing there talking to Wallace in their apartment, and he's at their refrigerator, and he's like, they have a bunch of magnets on the refrigerator. And he's. He's. I think he's depressed because he. I don't remember exactly why. I don't remember, but he's upset about something thing. And he's like. He's talking to Wal. He's like, you know what sucks? And he has written su with, like, the little letter magnets on the refrigerator. He's like, you know what sucks? And Wallace is like, what, man? And he goes, everything. And he slides in a sideways eight underneath. The sucks, which is Crack me the up, man. It's just. It's. It's the. The. The rapidity and the density of, like, the jokes in this movie. It's insane. Like, it's. Every scene is just, like, packed full of gags and jokes and stuff that you might not even notice. And it's just. It's crazy. [01:12:59] Speaker B: Speaking of another little moment in the movie that never fails to make me laugh is when Scott, when he dives out the window, when Knives shows up at the apartment, Wallace answers the door. And we're like. We're seeing Wallace from the perspective of Knives. [01:13:18] Speaker A: Yes. And we see Scott in the background briefly, like, la. In bed or whatever. And then Wallace kind of shuts the door and it hides Scott. And then she's like, is Scott here? And he goes, no, he just left. And then Scott goes through, diving through the background, through the window. And. Or it might be vice versa. He might dive through the Window. And then he says, actually he just left. But, oh, my God, it's so fucking funny. That I'm pretty sure is a cowboy switch where we see Michael ceramic. And then when the door gets shut, there's a stunt person hiding behind who then dives out the window. [01:13:54] Speaker B: Nice. [01:13:55] Speaker A: But, yeah. Oh, God, it's so funny. [01:13:58] Speaker B: Another little line that I loved. We find out that Clash at the Demon Head is doing a secret show. [01:14:04] Speaker A: Yes. [01:14:05] Speaker B: And Sex Bob OMB is gonna open for them. But on the subject of secret show, I think Stephen Stills or somebody is like, we should do a secret show. And I think Kim goes, all our shows are secret shows. [01:14:19] Speaker A: Yeah, it's great. It's great. A little gag in the movie that kind of runs through the film that I thought was funny, which kind of comes from the book, is that in the book, Wallace has a different boyfriend every time he shows up. And sometimes that includes stealing other boys from other characters. Which happens in the movie is that he steals Jimmy from Julie or what? I think he's there with Julie or Stacey. It might be Stacy. Yeah, he's there with Stacy. And then Wallace ends up, like, taking him home or whatever. But in the book, they turn this into Wallace creating this polycule. Cause as he collects boyfriends, they stick around. And so then we got that gag at the beginning where he wakes up in bed with other Scott. Then we get a gag later in the movie where they wake up in bed and other Scott sits up and then Jimmy sits up, and you're like, okay. It's just this growing thing. Yeah. It's funny. [01:15:21] Speaker B: I love that in the movie, Knives literally dyes her hair the same color as Ramona. Because she does put, like, a streak in her hair in the book, but we don't. [01:15:31] Speaker A: It's all in black and white. [01:15:31] Speaker B: It's all in black and white. And I think they actually might say, like, she just bleaches it or something. I don't know if she dyes it or not, but she dyes it the exact shade of blue that Ramona has. [01:15:44] Speaker A: Yeah, apparently. My co worker today was telling me who's a big fan of both the movie and the graphic novels, but particularly the movie, he said they did release color versions of these at some point, supposedly, is what he said. But ours are all in black and white. Except I think the fifth one starts in color. No, the fourth one. One of them starts, like, the first few pages in color. [01:16:04] Speaker B: Yeah, there are some chunks of the. [01:16:07] Speaker A: Fourth color that was the only one for me, was the beginning of the fourth One. [01:16:10] Speaker B: I thought there was some in the sixth one, too, but maybe I'm misremembering. [01:16:15] Speaker A: There's this great little scene where Knives is spying on the band from outside the window after Scott breaks up with her. And this. This was. And it's the exact same. This is basically a movie. Nailed it. Because that scene is in the book where we. We get this shot of Knives, like, staring in the window, like, stalking them. But in the movie, there's an addition. At least I don't think it was in the book. I. I couldn't find. Find it, or at least I didn't remember it being there. Where in the movie, right before the reveal of Knives peering in the window, they're talking about how they need fans or whatever, and Stephen Stills is like, you know what we need? We need stalkers. And then it just, like, cuts down and Knives is, like, staring in the window. So good. And then we get to the best. [01:16:56] Speaker B: Scene in the movie, the best scene in the entire movie. The Black Sheep performance. It's so good. [01:17:03] Speaker A: So good. It's insane. It's insane how good this whole scene is. Every single thing about the scene is incredible. The setup, obviously, leading into it. We know it's, like, building into this big moment. But then as the music starts playing, we. The. The. The intro to the song is Envy Adams singing oh, yeah. Over and over again. And then we're cutting back and forth between Envy and Todd and Scott and Ramona, as it dawns on everybody in the room, but specifically Scott and Ramona, that Todd, who is the bass player, which was alluded to earlier, that she had dated a Todd, but she didn't realize, oh, shit, this is the Todd that she dated. He is. [01:17:52] Speaker B: Same Todd. [01:17:53] Speaker A: Same Todd. He is now dating Envy. And the. The editing, the cutting back and forth with the music and the setup and the. The performances by everybody. The way Brandon Ruth is staring daggers at them when they're like. He's staring at them in the crowd, just with this animosity. And then the cutting back and forth and then. And then, like, she's singing, oh, yeah. And Scott's like, oh, no in the crowd. And then it kicks into the actual song and. Holy. Brie Larson's performance is, like, incredible. [01:18:26] Speaker B: I mean, I. I don't necessarily. I like Brie Larson. [01:18:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:18:33] Speaker B: I wouldn't necessarily consider her, like, a crush of mine, but this scene. Be still my beating heart. [01:18:41] Speaker A: Oh, my God, she's so good in it. And it's. Yeah, it's. The performance is great. I actually went today and watched because as we mentioned in the prequel, like, this whole song there, you can just watch they have a whole performance of it because in the movie, when they were shooting the movie, some of the songs, like four or five of them, they recorded the entire song as a performance just so they could release them later instead of stuff. And this is one of them. And it's just incredible. And the song was written by a band called the Metric or Metric. Yeah, written for the movie. And the song, like Envy Adams, is based on the lead singer of that band, Metric. But it's. Yeah, it's. It's just incredible. Her performance is great. They have a version of it too, but they actually have Brie Larson's version of it on their YouTube page on metrics YouTube page, which is great. But yeah, it's just. Just it's. It's one of the best, like, musical. I don't even know how to describe it. It's just. It's one of the best scenes in the movie. And it's. It's unlike any other scene in. In just the way the. The way it builds and everything about it and the energy. It's so good. I love it so much. I kind of alluded to this earlier, but one thing that I like, that the movie does get rid of. While it does kind of flatten Ramona's character a little bit and kind of shortchange her, especially in the third act and in kind of of pulls away a little bit of her agency at times, what it does do that I liked is that it gets rid of some of her weird, like, jealousy and stuff that the book has. In the book, she's a much more jealous and like, she has a lot more ups and downs than she does. She's a lot more of a like, kind of monotone character in the movie, but in a way that I think works in the book. There are times where she's just like. She gets real weird about Envy here, which I think this is actually what leads into the fight between her and Envy in the books. But just like the way she acts about Envy and stuff I just thought was like. I don't know, I just didn't like it. Maybe to be fair, I'm probably comparing to like, her. The version of her from the movie that I had seen a bunch of time where she's this very like, kind of common, collected. But everything is under the. There's a lot of. Of inner turmoil with her character that you can sense in the movie. Like, you can tell she's not like, perfectly calm and chill all the time. But she always portrays that on the outside that she is like this very, like, calm, chill person. Whereas in the book she, like, has moments where she does just kind of like, freak out and like, yell at people and be weird and. I don't know. It's a little thing. I just. Something about the way she is characterized in the book, I just didn't like as much. But I can understand people disagreeing with her for sure. [01:21:23] Speaker B: I liked the base battle. You said that they had one in the book. I don't. I. [01:21:28] Speaker A: They do. [01:21:28] Speaker B: I memory wiped that. [01:21:30] Speaker A: It's not nearly as long, but there is a brief one in the book. [01:21:33] Speaker B: But the movie cuts out this whole plotline with Todd and Envy and like a race through a discount store. [01:21:42] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:21:43] Speaker B: That I. [01:21:45] Speaker A: Well, it's because they understand. Yes. That whole thing streamlining the Todd fight and the Envy, the whole deal in. In the movie I thought was a really good decision. [01:21:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:21:56] Speaker A: Because in the book they fight at the concert initially, then they stop and take a break and then schedule to have another fight the next day at this Big Ed's. Honest Ed's store thing. [01:22:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:11] Speaker A: Which I had to look this up. This is a real. Was a real thing in Toronto. It's kind of like a cultural landmark kind of thing. It was this weird bargain store that sold all kinds of weird stuff that people just thought was really interesting and neat. It's been closed forever and gotten rid of because it didn't survive in the modern, you know, environment of how shopping and stuff works. But it's this weird, like, very unique store. But we get this, like, for somebody who doesn't know what that store is and like, what the whole deal with it is. It's in the book, it's presented as like this weird meta joke about the existential horror of honest EDS and like the. The weird consumerism of it, I think, or something there's like, again, like, because Todd gets in there and has like a mental breakdown because of the store or so I don't even. Yeah, it's all very confusing. [01:23:03] Speaker B: I'm not sure even, like, what I would draw a comparison to. [01:23:08] Speaker A: The closest thing I could think would be maybe something like Big lots, but like a more crazy version or like a Ben Franklin, but like a crazier version of a Ben Franklin. [01:23:19] Speaker B: I don't know if people know what. [01:23:20] Speaker A: A Ben Franklin is, if that's even a chain. I don't know. We had a. I don't know. We had a store, my place, called Ben Franklin. That was mainly. I think I've talked about it before, but it was primarily sold like party supplies, but also sold, like, they had, like a candy aisle and, like a toy aisle. They sold, like, models and shit. It was like, all kinds of weird stuff. This looks more like a bargain store, like, dollar store kind of thing or something. I don't know. [01:23:45] Speaker B: You know, Although it's not the same type of store. But, you know what did kind of make me have an existential crisis at the horrors of capitalism. Buc ee's. [01:23:58] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. That would actually be probably a good. Similar. Yes. No, I completely agree. Bucky's was a nightmare. [01:24:03] Speaker B: That was a nightmare. [01:24:04] Speaker A: I've been in BUC EE's exactly twice now, I think. And I was like, oh, no, this is not for me. This is not. I. That was a weird experience when we went to that. Oh, yeah, that's a whole different thing. But went in the BUC EE's one time and I was like, I don't ever need to be in this store ever again. I don't. I know people love it, but I. For me, I'm just like, what the fuck is this? This is. This is. Yes. Like you said, this is like, this weird. Which I guess that's a good example, because that. Yeah, that did. I did have this weird kind of like, existential crisis being in that store. That was hard to put into words. So maybe that's what the book is going for, I guess. [01:24:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:24:45] Speaker A: That being said, I thought it was a good cut for the movie, because I didn't. Well, and to be fair, I think might have been that it may not have existed anymore when they were filming them. I don't know, because it closed pretty soon after the book came out, I believe. But it, like. The other thing that was confusing is that, like, Todd has this, like, nervous breakdown and then the store, like, implodes. And I thought it killed him. [01:25:07] Speaker B: Yeah. But it doesn. [01:25:09] Speaker A: No, because then I got confused. Then in the next scene, we see him doing stuff, and I was like, wait, is this a flashback? We see Todd, like, getting well, because in the next scene we see Todd get gelato, which is the whole setup for the police thing in the book. But I was like, wait, is this a flashback or something? Like, oh, no, he didn't die when the store collapsed on him. So that was all just. We get, like, three starts and stops with the Todd fight in a way that is just really kind of confusing. [01:25:37] Speaker B: And, like, way more obnoxious than any of, like, Evil X fights. [01:25:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:25:44] Speaker B: The Todd Thing just dragged out forever. [01:25:47] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I also thought the cleaning lady exchange, which is in the book where Todd is like, tell the cleaning lady to take you out on Monday, whatever the fuck he says. And that all comes from the book. But it is the delivery of it in the film. [01:26:06] Speaker B: Yes. [01:26:06] Speaker A: The delivery sells it so fucking funny. Like it's funny in the book. Still. Still. But seeing him do that Brandon Ruth do that delivery in the movie, it's way funnier. And then the other thing I really like, apart from truncating everything with Todd, is that we get an actual ending where Scott defeats him. [01:26:24] Speaker B: Yes. [01:26:25] Speaker A: He defeats him with the battle of the wits from Princess Bride. [01:26:28] Speaker B: Yeah. He tricks him into drinking half and half. Whereas in the book, the vegan police literally did they just kind of show up, up. And we do set up like the gelato thing earlier. But I think having Scott actually do something to defeat Todd is way better. [01:26:47] Speaker A: Yes. Also the line when he's like. I put. When he's like, I know you're gonna put the half and half in that one and blah, blah. So he goes, I could tell you, you send. Or I could read your thoughts, bro, because I'm vegan. And I could tell you put the half and half in that one. Give me the other one. And Scott, it's like, I thought about. He says something. It's the line where he's like, but I thought really hard about putting it in this one or whatever. And it always cracks me up. But yeah, having him actually defeat him, I think makes more sense. [01:27:16] Speaker B: Although I will say I did appreciate the line in the book where Scott's fighting Todd right before the vegan police show up, and he's like, I need some kind of, like, last minute, poorly set up deus ex machina. [01:27:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And surprise, the vegan police show up. And I would even say the vegan police are in the book. But I would say they're even better in the movie because I love that it's Thomas Jane and Clifton Collins Jr. Show up with their cameo. And specifically when they show up and they. When they leave at the end after they take Todd's powers away and they're running out and they go. Yeah. And jump and high five each other is so goofy and funny that I love it every time. It just cracks me the up. A thing that the movie doesn't do that I appreciated is that at the beginning of book four, during the short little color section, they're all at the beach, There is a swimsuit shot of knives chow, and the caption says, knives Chow still 17. [01:28:18] Speaker B: Yes. [01:28:19] Speaker A: And I was like, oh, well, you got. [01:28:21] Speaker B: We got to draw our attention to it. [01:28:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Why are we doing that, man? What the. Yeah. Which. And I had additional notes here because then later on, book six really leans in to like for Anise. Initially, there's a moment in book six where I was like, oh, they're going to like really kind of lean into and address the creepiness. [01:28:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I kind of thought we were going to actually take Scott to task. [01:28:45] Speaker A: Yes. [01:28:45] Speaker B: For that. For a minute. [01:28:46] Speaker A: For a minute. And then we don't. But because there's this moment in the. Where Knife shows the up. Scott. Hey, knives chow 18 years old. Knives, when did you turn 18? Last week. Does that mean you were practically 16 when we met? And she scoots over? No way. We met on my 17th birthday, silly. So how's it feel to be no longer a child in the eyes of the law? And then the little caption is sketchy ass 24 year old. And then. And I was like, oh, we're like really going at like, which the book has always Boys and the movie both clearly don't approve of Scott dating a 17 year old. And I don't know, like, I think technically in Canada 17 might be. It must be, right, maybe. Because even whatever. Although he does say here, not no longer a child in the eyes of the law. So Maybe it is 18 in Canada. I don't know because I know in some places it's 17 or whatever. But. So I was like, oh, we're gonna like really go at it here. Because it's clear that nobody approves of Scott dating a 17 year old. Yeah, but the book's still kind of weird about it. [01:29:46] Speaker B: I don't. Yeah, I don't know that like, yes, everybody disapproves of it. I think even the narrative in both the book and the movie disapprove of it. I'm not sure either disapprove of it enough. [01:29:59] Speaker A: Yes, I would agree with that. And that's why I thought, oh, in book six, we're about to get like a real big condemnation of like, what the fuck is like, that's fuck up fucked up. And so I'm like, oh, okay. Because then. And he's like, so how does it feel to be like, no, no longer a child in the eyes of the law? She says, oh, it's ok. And then she says, I'm moving away soon. I applied to McGill and UBC and I'm graduating in three months. And he goes, you mean you're gonna stop being a high schooler. And she goes, I'll be so far away from all my friends, but I feel like it's the right thing to do, you know, you're 18 years old. I just think it's time for a change in my life, a big change and change. And then we get this crazy Persona 5, like, style anime thing of Scott pointing at her going, do you want to have sex? I think we should have sex. Casual sex. [01:30:45] Speaker B: Ex. [01:30:45] Speaker A: And you're like, oh, so you're not fixing this. You're making it weirder. Cool, Great, Amazing. [01:30:52] Speaker B: And again, like, I don't think we're supposed to approve of that. [01:30:57] Speaker A: No. [01:30:57] Speaker B: Like, I don't think the narrative approves of it, but the narrative also never really takes him to task for it. [01:31:05] Speaker A: Well, and then she's like. She says no or whatever, or they. They don't have sex. She turns him down. But then she's like, it's cool if we just make out for a while. And they start making out. But then they realize the book's like, but it was horrible for everyone, and that includes you. So the book knows. Yeah, but still does it. And I'm like, what the fuck are we doing? It's. I. The book knows we hate it, but still does it. And it's like, why are we doing this? It's. It's fucking weird. And I. Yeah, I agree. I don't think. I think that's a thing that I can understand. People being skeeved out in general about. About this whole thing is that it doesn't quite probably go hard enough in being like, hey, man, what the. That's up. Like, everybody says that, but it's still, like, played for a joke in a way that feels like. It still feels like there's this weird wink and a nod of like. But actually it's not that. Like, but it's okay. Kind of like we're gonna say it's bad, but it's. Yeah, don't like it. A better change in the movie is that Ramona is clearly set up as bi from the beginning of the movie. In the book, it is very, very clear that that was like a Book four decision. [01:32:19] Speaker B: Yes, that was a mid series decision by Bryan Lee o'. Malley. [01:32:23] Speaker A: Because from the beginning, she keeps. In the first couple books, she always says, evil ex boyfriends. Every single time. [01:32:32] Speaker B: Every time. [01:32:33] Speaker A: And then all of a sudden in book four, he says, oh, you're evil ex boyfriends. And she goes, evil exes. And I was like. Was like, oh. Because I Had a note early on. I was like, oh, so I'm wondering if that's just going to be a movie edition. [01:32:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:32:45] Speaker A: Like, I for a while thought that might literally just be a movie edition of her being bi and one of the exes being a girl. I thought that might, like, maybe the movies did that and the books just never did. But no, they just got there late. I was like, okay. And so it does help in the movie that it was at least set up from the beginning where she. She corrects him immediately when he says evil ex boyfriend. She's no evil, evil exes. Yeah. Another thing in the books that I hated, that I hated this so much. Hated it. Is that Scott stumbles in on a drunk Kim and knives making out one time. [01:33:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:33:17] Speaker A: And I'm like, what the. Kim would literally never. Everything we know about Kim. [01:33:23] Speaker B: Kim would never never. [01:33:24] Speaker A: It makes literally no sense. The only thing I could think in this scene was that. Which is a terrible way to do it. But the only thing I could think is that. Because this is all in book four when we're setting up. And I think it's just the idea that. That were, like. I feel like Brian Leo o' Malley felt like he needed to set up for the audience that the idea that bi women exist, like, maybe or something. I don't even know. Because the only thing I could think in this moment, because I hate it, because I was like, Ramona or Kim would literally never make. What are you. What are you doing? She. She gives him shit all the time about dating a high schooler. [01:33:58] Speaker B: Yeah. She would never. [01:33:59] Speaker A: She would never. It's insane. Even drunk. There's just no way. All I could think. I was like, the only thing I'm hoping is that maybe this is a breadcrumb setting up that Kim is, in fact, bi and that this is setting up the true ending. My one True ship. Or what. What is it called? One True Pairing. Otp. [01:34:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:34:19] Speaker A: Which is Kim and Ramona. I wrote One can hope. That is not how it goes. But my true ending is that Kim and Ramona should have run away together. [01:34:31] Speaker B: I mean, I. I, too, was Team Kimona by the end of this series. [01:34:36] Speaker A: Well. And the crazy thing, I feel like the book kind of. [01:34:39] Speaker B: Yes. [01:34:40] Speaker A: Is that it? [01:34:40] Speaker B: Yes. [01:34:42] Speaker A: There are times where, like, they keep talking about. There's this one exchange in particular, but there's times where, like, in particular, Ramona keeps asking, like, where's Kim? What's up with Kim? Like, seems interested in, like, where Kim is at all the time. And, like, what Kim's up to. For reasons unbeknownst to us, we don't like. They don't seem to be, like, super close friends or anything. And so I'm like, oh, is he, like, seating this? We even get a particular scene where Ramona says something about Kim and Scott's like, well, why don't you marry her? Like, as a joke comeback. And Ramona goes like, well, maybe, or something like that. She says a lot like, there's something change like that. And I was like, oh, my God, are we really setting that up? I was like, legitimately, hopefully that that might be the ending of this thing and that Scott has to stay by himself. Kim and Ramona will figure out they should be together because they get their sorted out and Scott has to figure it out later or whatever. But no, no, no. I am glad that the movie removed the Knives's dad plot line. [01:35:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I hard agree that it went nowhere. [01:35:44] Speaker A: It didn't really go anywhere. I think it was. I think the goal was just to kind of expand on Knives's backstory a little bit and, like. [01:35:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:35:51] Speaker A: Her home life and to. [01:35:52] Speaker B: Right. [01:35:52] Speaker A: Explain. [01:35:53] Speaker B: But it didn't even. [01:35:55] Speaker A: No, not really. It's just that her. Her dad in the book is like a ninja who is chasing Scott around. [01:36:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:36:01] Speaker A: Trying to kill him for dating Knives. And he doesn't realize who this is for a while. Eventually. Oh, my God, it's Knives. Dab. They have a fight briefly. At one point, he fights Ramona, briefly. Anyways, turns into this thing. Eventually they come to an understanding, and he explains to Knives, his dad, that he, like, never slept with her or even kissed her or anything like that. That and his Knives, his dad is like, okay. And he. He says to Knives, like, that Scott, guys, he's a pretty okay guy. And, like, that's the last we see. [01:36:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:36:29] Speaker A: It's dumb and pointless. And the joke is that he says it in Chinese and Knives doesn't understand it because she doesn't speak Chinese. [01:36:36] Speaker B: Yes, I guess I get. [01:36:38] Speaker A: Yeah, whatever. The movie removes a scene where Ramona fat shames Roxy when Roxy shows back up, and she's like, you've gained weight since we dated. And it's like, what the. [01:36:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I. There was. [01:36:50] Speaker A: That's some of the stuff with Rona where I thought the movie makes her into it. [01:36:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:36:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:36:54] Speaker B: But like, while we're on the subject of fat shaming, why were these books constantly trying to gaslight me into thinking Ramona was fat? [01:37:02] Speaker A: Are they, though? Because isn't it? [01:37:03] Speaker B: I. So some of that comes from Knives. [01:37:06] Speaker A: It's usually knives, which is fine. Yeah. [01:37:09] Speaker B: Like, I mean, not fine, but, like, it makes sense for her character. [01:37:13] Speaker A: Knives. It's the scorned lover, who is. [01:37:14] Speaker B: She's scorned lover. And she's also very young and. [01:37:17] Speaker A: Yes. So she's just making. Picking up things to insult with. Yeah. [01:37:21] Speaker B: But I swear to you, there are other moments in the book that do not come from knives that, like, I would have to dig at Ramona for her weight. [01:37:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:37:30] Speaker B: And I'm like, she was drawn the same as everybody else, so I'm not really sure what we're. What we're on about here. [01:37:38] Speaker A: I. I don't remember that. But yeah. Yeah. She is definitely not drawn to be fat. So I don't know why that. That would be the case. Case. I thought that it made sense to remove the whole plot line where Lisa shows back up. [01:37:50] Speaker B: Yeah. That was really like a nothing plot line. [01:37:53] Speaker A: It's just there to. I get why it's there in the book. It's there to be the temptation for Scott. She is the girl that shows up from his past who he dated briefly at. Or. No, didn't date. [01:38:04] Speaker B: Yeah, didn't date. [01:38:05] Speaker A: They never dated. [01:38:06] Speaker B: He dated Kim. [01:38:06] Speaker A: He dated Kim, but he had a crush on her, I think, at one point or something like that. And she shows back up and they have this whole kind of thing where he's in a rough spot with Ramona and he. [01:38:19] Speaker B: And she's, like, really into him. [01:38:21] Speaker A: She's really into him. When she shows back up, she literally tells Scott that when she's. Every time she's been around him, she's been dressing, quote, unquote, like a tart for him. [01:38:29] Speaker B: Yes. [01:38:30] Speaker A: Because she likes the attention. It's all like. It's just. And then it all just. The whole point of. Is that he doesn't have sex with her. He proves his loyalty, you know? Like, it's. [01:38:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:38:40] Speaker A: He proves that he's. He's grown up enough to not just sleep with every girl that throws herself at him, I guess, is the idea or whatever. And it's just like, okay, sure, sure. It doesn't really go anywhere. It's just. Again, that's just there for Scott to prove that he's better or whatever. I don't think it needed to be in the movie. [01:39:00] Speaker B: Not at all. [01:39:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:39:01] Speaker B: I wouldn't have minded seeing her as, like, a background character. And maybe. Maybe she is a background character somewhere, and I just didn't know. Notice. [01:39:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:39:09] Speaker B: But I. Yeah, they're. Her entire plotline didn't absolutely did not need to be in the movie. Something I did, like, in the movie during the fight with Roxy, I loved that she uses her belt as a weapon. She has on this, like, looped, like this studded belt that's like, it looks. [01:39:27] Speaker A: Like it's emo, kind of. It does, yeah. [01:39:30] Speaker B: And she, like, pulls it off and uses it as a whip. And I was like this. God, that's so bisexual. [01:39:35] Speaker A: I just better in the. [01:39:36] Speaker B: So bisexual coded. [01:39:38] Speaker A: Absolutely. I would just say better in the movie generally is just Roxy. I think. What's her name play. Oh, my God. I'm blanking on the actress's name now. Who plays Roxy? [01:39:48] Speaker B: It's May. May something. [01:39:49] Speaker A: May Whitman. [01:39:49] Speaker B: Yes. [01:39:50] Speaker A: I think she does a great job. All of her dialogue is basically straight from the book for the most part, but her delivery of it is all really funny. And her look is great. And yeah, I, I, I thought she's fantastic. I, I, I love her character, even though it's brief and not everything with her character is great, which we're going to get into a little bit here later. But, yeah, one of the things that's great is when she is fighting them. Ramona. Scott doesn't want to fight a girl. He doesn't want to hit a girl. You know, he has this, he's like, I don't want to punch a girl. So at one point, Ramona starts puppeting his body like it's ratatouille. [01:40:26] Speaker B: Yes. [01:40:28] Speaker A: To fight her, which I thought was great. She's, like, holding his hands and kicking his feet to fight Roxy, which is amazing. A thing that the movie gets rid of. That I thought was a good decision or maybe doesn't get rid of, but just wasn't a thing maybe thought of yet. Because I don't think it shows up until book five. [01:40:45] Speaker B: I would swear on my life it does not. [01:40:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Even though they seem to imply that it was happening prior to whatever, which is the glow, which was. I was not big on this. There's the scene where Ramona Mona's head starts glowing. And then at one point, Scott's like, why is. You're glowing. Your head's glowing? And she goes, no, it's not. What are you talking about? And then she tells Scott that he's glowed before. She's like, what are you talking about? I'm not glowing. But you've glowed before. And I'm like, what is all of this glow stuff? And then. [01:41:17] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah. I was like, never 100% sure I understood what I was supposed to get from that I could tell that it. [01:41:25] Speaker A: Was supposed to be something related to, like, because, like, it happens right when Ramona starts thinking about, like, leak leaving. When she's like, I gotta get out of here, she's thinking about leaving. And I went and did some more looking after this to see, like, what people think it. And it's seemingly meant to represent kind of the character experiencing insecurity, self doubt, anxiety, that sort of thing. But I swear to God, it just randomly shows up in book five. [01:41:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:41:48] Speaker A: Out of nowhere. [01:41:49] Speaker B: Yeah. They, like, start talking about it like. [01:41:51] Speaker A: It'S been a thing the whole time. And you're like, wait, what? [01:41:55] Speaker B: Like, has it? Okay. [01:41:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:41:58] Speaker B: I thought that the twins being a techno band and doing the amp battle was a lot better and worked better thematically than just have them having, like, random robots that fight Scott. [01:42:13] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. Yeah, absolutely. That whole battle with the Katayanagi twins in the battle of the band scene where they go amp versus amp is super cool and fun and just visually stunning and really cool. Cool. It was the first film we got to watch. We purchased an Ultra HD Blu Ray player for this, and, boy, that scene, that's the scene that shines in Ultra hd because there's so many, like, particle effects and that. I. It. It. I was like, holy, that looks good. But, yeah, that whole battle is great. And I agree, like, just, like, it makes sense for kind of their whole thing, instead of just random robots. [01:42:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:42:48] Speaker A: They're sending robots after them to fight them. And you're like, what does that have. [01:42:51] Speaker B: To do with anything? And, like, overall, I appreciated the movie. Movie's, like, better commitment to music. [01:42:58] Speaker A: Yes. [01:42:58] Speaker B: Than what the books had. [01:43:00] Speaker A: Yes. You would think the books would. It's really a thing in the first one, and it's a recurring thing throughout, but it. The movie makes it a central pillar of, like, the storytelling, whereas in this, it's more of, like, an ancillary background. [01:43:12] Speaker B: Thing and kind of gets, like, progressively less important as we move forward as they move on. [01:43:17] Speaker A: Whereas the movie kind of keeps it front and center for most of the film, which I thought was fun. [01:43:22] Speaker B: I was also thinking while we were watching the scene, if we ever got a chance to see this on a really good, cool movie theater. [01:43:30] Speaker A: Oh, like an IMAX or something. [01:43:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I would like to do that. [01:43:34] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Seeing this in an IMAX theater would be incredible. So there's this. After Ramona breaks up with him in the movie, we get the scene where he plays the sad Ramona song that he wrote for her, but we see this scene of him slamming his head against the telephone pole, which comes from the book. That exact scene. We get that exact imagery in the book of him, like thunking his head against a telephone pole. But it is elevated again by the movie because he is thunking his head to the music of the sad Ramona song that he's playing. Again, just every little thing taken to the next level, because that's. Edgar Wright is very extra. [01:44:13] Speaker B: He is extra. That's a good word for him. [01:44:16] Speaker A: Yeah. There's a great line in the movie that I don't think is in the book anywhere where I don't even remember who he's talking to. But Wallace says this. They're trying to figure out where. What happened to Ramona. [01:44:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:44:29] Speaker A: And he says, like, I think Wallace tells him she's with Gideon or something like that. I don't remember how it all transpires, but somebody says, like, she's with Gideon and Wallace. And Scott's like, oh, really? And Wallace says to him, don't worry, man. It's probably just because he's better than you. Which was very funny. Wallace's character in the movie, he's fun in the book, but the performance by Kieran Culkin in the movie is top notch. Yeah, it's incredible. A great little moment in the movie that I thought is a lot of fun that doesn't come from the book is when he's getting into the. What is it called? Chaos or what? [01:45:05] Speaker B: The chaos Theater. [01:45:06] Speaker A: Chaos theater, which is Gideon's club for the big final action sequence. He's got to get in there to save Ramona. And he's like, on a mission. And he's, like, walking up to the gates and there's guards to let. Or there's doormen or whatever. There's bouncers. And he gets to the first set of doors outside, and they're like, password. And he's like, whatever. And they're like, cool. And they let him in, and then he gets down to, like, the elevator to go down into the thing or whatever. And the guy's like, second password. And he just goes. And they're like, cool. They let him in. And I just love that the passwords are whatever and a grunt, apparently. This is very funny. [01:45:43] Speaker B: This isn't really a better in the movie, per se, but I appreciated that the movie used sex Bob OMB's black and white mismatched outfits. Because they do wear those in Volume three. [01:45:57] Speaker A: I remember seeing those and being like, I remember those from the movie 100%. [01:46:01] Speaker B: And the movie has them wear them in the climax scene, which really works. Because they look, like, unnatural. [01:46:07] Speaker A: Yes. Which is the point, because it's like in the movie, the idea is maybe Gideon forced them to wear or something like that because they're there. [01:46:15] Speaker B: The constraints of having a label. [01:46:17] Speaker A: Exactly. But, yeah, Kim is wearing, like, this, like. I think they called in the book, like, a Gothic Lolita outfit, which is. And she's wearing that. And then Stephen Stills is wearing, like a. [01:46:27] Speaker B: Like a cowboy outfit, shirt thing. [01:46:29] Speaker A: And. And then Young Neil's just wearing, like, a suit or whatever. But it. Yeah, that does come from the book. [01:46:36] Speaker B: Also, Kim's line, this is not from the books, but I love we are Sex Bob omb. We are here to make money and sell out and stuff. [01:46:44] Speaker A: Except she says it like, we are Sex Bob omb. We are here to make money and sell out. Because she's obviously not. Yeah. Not psyched about it. But, yeah, I really like that. After Scott has his big moment. So at this point, Scott has been killed. Got his one up, and he's coming back to do everything over again and make everything right. And this is one of those moments that I feel like. I feel like people do just forget that this stuff happens in the movie. When they say that Scott, like, still an asshole at the end is that he comes in and the first thing he does when he gets inside, he walks up to the band and he's like, hey, guys, the new lineup rocks. You sound better without me. And he's the one who calls Neil Neil instead of Young Neil. He dubs him Neil and gets. You know, lets him level up from being Young Neil to just Neil, which I thought was fun. And I thought just that whole thing of the way the movie replays all of Scott's actions, but then allows him and forces him to take ownership. [01:47:41] Speaker B: Yes. [01:47:41] Speaker A: Was a very clever way to do some of what the book does at the end with him, like, coming to terms with everything by having it all replay and seeing the same events but slightly differently, where Scott is taking more of an active responsibility for everything. I thought was a very clever way to kind of quickly work that all in again. I still don't think it works great. It does feel a little like, oh, sure, whatever. But. But it works pretty good. [01:48:09] Speaker B: I was totally fine with the movie skipping Gideon's cryogenically frozen women. [01:48:14] Speaker A: Yeah. He has a. He's creating a harem of cryogenically frozen people that his exes are all frozen in a tube. And he has a spot for Ramona, I think, or Envy. One of the two. [01:48:24] Speaker B: Yeah, it doesn't even really go anywhere. [01:48:26] Speaker A: It doesn't really go anywhere. [01:48:27] Speaker B: They like introduce it's narrative to really. [01:48:29] Speaker A: Like up the stakes of like how evil Gideon is. Like, he's creating. Yeah, he's. He has like a. Yeah, a harem or whatever. It's like. [01:48:36] Speaker B: Okay, we didn't need that though. [01:48:38] Speaker A: No. I thought Knives and Scott working together to defeat Gideon in a callback to the DDR game was a fun. Yeah, it's fun little callback. They have to fight him similarly to how they did there. And I have always loved, even though I do like the way they do the anime cutting with him and Ramona in the movie or in the book. I do. I have always loved the silliness of the way Scott rears back and just kicks Gideon's head off. The. Just the way it looks is so silly. And it always cracks me up because he looks like a video game character or cartoon character. And this is very, very funny. [01:49:14] Speaker B: My last note here is that I was totally fine with the movie leaving out Stephen still's coming out like literally in the last five pages of the last book. [01:49:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:49:29] Speaker B: And like, and I do like, I appreciate it. The meta line where he was like, oh, I actually came out in volume five, but you seemed busy, so I just didn't mention it. But it was absolutely. Felt like something that Brian Lee O' Malley just randomly decided to do at the 11th hour. It didn't feel to me like it was planned at all. [01:49:51] Speaker A: Maybe I could see potentially, because one of the whole running things in the book that really isn't in the movie at all, it's is that Stephen Stills is in like a string of terrible relationships and keeps like, he's always miserable with like every woman. He's. [01:50:05] Speaker B: Yeah, well, he's. It's Julie. [01:50:06] Speaker A: Julie specifically. They have this on and off again relationship and he's just miserable the whole time. I do feel. I do agree that it feels a little bit like maybe it was like, oh, I've been setting up that he's been miserable in this relationship the whole time. The reason is actually he's gay and didn't know it or whatever. Maybe it could have been been a final, you know, like a last second kind of decision. But I also think it's not impossible that maybe he was planning something like that. [01:50:33] Speaker B: But yeah, I guess. [01:50:34] Speaker A: But I agree it feels fairly last second kind of. Oh, yeah. All right. That was everything we had for better in the movie. Let's go ahead and talk about stuff. The movie nailed. As I expected, practically perfect in every, every way. [01:50:52] Speaker B: Okay, right off the bat, we need to talk about how much effort was put into the actors just looking exactly like their comic book counterparts. [01:51:01] Speaker A: Insane. [01:51:01] Speaker B: Because it's nuts. [01:51:02] Speaker A: It's insane. I was literally stunned when I opened the graphic novel and started reading. [01:51:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:51:08] Speaker A: Specific. A lot. Almost all of them, but specifically Stephen Stills. I don't know if you could find a human being that looks more like the comic book drawing of Stephen still Stills than that dude that they. It's nuts. It's insane. But all of them, for the most part, like, arguably, Scott might look the least like his, but even then, he still does kind of look like him. But apart, like, Kim looks exactly like Kim's character. Envy looks exactly like Envy's character, at least in the earlier books. The later version, she looks kind of different. In the sixth book, they, like, gave her a. I had a note about this later, but the. The whole art style in the sixth one kind of changes a little bit. [01:51:48] Speaker B: A little. [01:51:49] Speaker A: A little bit. I think he just got may more time or got. Became a better artist. I don't know. It's more refined. All of the art in the sixth book looks like it got like an extra something. Something done to it. It's just more refined and more, like, polished than the rest of it. And Envy in particular, I feel like, looks pretty different than she did in the earlier. [01:52:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:52:11] Speaker A: But anyways. But yes, just generally across the board, every single person looks exactly the same. And I also just decided. So as I was going through my book notes, I'm like, I'm not going to put every single thing I had in for this category. It's one of the most faithful adaptations I've ever seen in terms of, like, including stuff from the book. Yes, it's nuts. Pretty much every frame of the movie, other than the stuff we'd mentioned in Better in the Movie comes from the graphic novel in some way and is like literally just direct visual translation from page to screen for tons of it. [01:52:47] Speaker B: I mean, yeah, I mean, very clearly Edgar Wright got a hold of these books and was like, I'm gonna put that up on the screen 100%. [01:52:57] Speaker A: They were sitting in the editing bay holding up well, not holding up the books, probably pulling up screen grabs of the book, holding it next. And when they were filming, like, holding them up next to the, like, even little details, like the way the scene is shot where. Which I don't even know about this, but, like, when him and Ramona almost have sex, the shot of her crawling across the bed in her underwear is the exact same. Same, exact same image from the book. Like, it's just. So much of it is just identical. So we're really not going to hit every single thing, but we're going to cover as much as we can quickly. [01:53:29] Speaker B: We have quite a few things we should bang through. Scott, if your life had a face, I would punch it. [01:53:36] Speaker A: Yep. The apartment layout and the breakdown of who owns. [01:53:40] Speaker B: Yes. [01:53:40] Speaker A: Like, we get the panning shot or the dolly shot with all the little labels popping up and everything blowing belongs to Wallace. [01:53:46] Speaker B: Yes. [01:53:46] Speaker A: And just the look of the apartment is exactly what it looks like in the. [01:53:50] Speaker B: In the book, when Stacy asks Scott why he's dating a 17 year old and he was, his response is, it's just nice. It's simple. [01:54:02] Speaker A: Yeah. I actually probably should have put this in better in the movie, now that I think about it, because Michael Cera absolutely nails how pathetic and miserable Scott actually is. [01:54:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:54:12] Speaker A: But in a way that actually isn't even even in the book necessarily, because there's a lot of subtlety you can see in his performance in the movie that is hard to grasp from stills in the book. You know what I mean? But it is clear in the movie how pathetic and miserable Scott is all the time early on in the film, and he just absolutely crushes it, which is, I think, what the book is trying to get across. But Scott, I think, feels more oblivious to it in the book, whereas the performance in the movie, I think he is pretending to not know that he's miserable, but you can still see it in the performance how miserable he is, if that makes sense. [01:54:52] Speaker B: Exchange between Knives and Scott. I've never kissed a guy. Me either. [01:54:57] Speaker A: Yeah. The first time he sees Ramona at the library, it's the exact same shots of him then him and Knives walking down the stairs carrying books and her at the front desk. It's literally like Picture Perfect Recreation. [01:55:11] Speaker B: Yeah. A line exchange when Knives is watching them practice and somebody says, like, is your girlfriend distracting you? And she just goes, I'll be quieter. [01:55:22] Speaker A: Yeah, it's great. After Scott bombs with Ramona trying his little Pac Man Puckman thing. He says, I'll leave you alone forever. [01:55:31] Speaker B: Now, and then proceeds to stalk her all around the park. And I believe a lot of the stalking shots are like, exactly from the book, too. [01:55:42] Speaker A: It's a great line in the movie. I putting this in movie. Nailed it. Because it does. We talked about how one of the things that is nice in the book is a lot of the backstory we get of what Scott has been up to and what kind of led to who he is now. The movie gives us a little bit of that in a single line pretty early on in the movie where I think it's Steven or somebody is talking to him and they're saying, oh, I think it's. It's Stacy, actually, I think is talking to him and they're talking about his backstory. And she's like. He's like somebody. I think she calls him a lady killer or something like that. He's like, lady killer? What are you talking about? And she goes, that time with Lisa, that time with Holly, that time you dumped Kim. And again, just hitting some of the backstory stuff that we see in the book, but just in like a single line. Kind of an Easter egg for book readers, I think, as much as anything. [01:56:30] Speaker B: Scott, reading the email from Matthew Patel. [01:56:33] Speaker A: Yeah, this is so boring. Yeah. And this deletes it. The dream desert with rollerblading Ramona. But specifically that weird little cactus, like, half cactus looking thing. [01:56:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:56:47] Speaker A: In the desert. Looks exactly like it does in the book. Kind of like his dream desert or whatever. [01:56:52] Speaker B: Tiny little detail when he's shopping with knives. He's sitting on the couch that has a do not sit sign on it. [01:57:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. The. The poster that is over Scott and Wallace's bed in the apartment is these two girls kissing and the exact same poster, which is a real poster. Like, I've seen that poster before. But that is what was drawn in the book and they have it in the movie. I think it might be tattoo the band tattoo that fake lesbian. Yeah, I think it might be. I'm not 100% on that, but I think one of them is like a Nazi now or something like that. Anyways, the. The movie nails this. Using the word we all realized was bad to call people until like this year when half the Internet decided it was fine again, which is calling people are, you know. [01:57:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:57:41] Speaker A: Slow or whatever. But like, with the R word. The movie does that a couple times. It's in the book. Like, I don't know, once a book maybe or something like that. But it was that time period where. Where lots of people were saying it, not thinking about it. I used to say it back in the day. It was everybody like, we. That's just how we talked. And then we realized, hey, we shouldn't do that because that's mean. And then apparently. And this is. Apparently, this isn't even just a right. Like a politically, like, right side of the aisle thing. A bunch of people on the Internet all of a sudden decided, ah, fuck that we're gonna say it again. It's like, what the hell? What happened here? Not a fan of that. But. But the movie nails it by having, by having them use that word. [01:58:23] Speaker B: We do see Ramona's subspace highways. [01:58:25] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think they're equally. [01:58:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:58:29] Speaker A: The book and the movie. [01:58:30] Speaker B: It's kind of hard to understand what they're supposed to be exactly in both. [01:58:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I. In my opinion, it's honestly better in the movie that they don't try to explain it at all. [01:58:43] Speaker B: I agree. [01:58:44] Speaker A: Like, it honestly is more confusing in the book when they try to give you any amount of. Amount of explanation. [01:58:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Because I, I don't think the book can decide what it is. [01:58:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I agree. But she does mention it in the movie when she delivers that package, like, the subspace highway thing. She's like, oh, that's the subspace highway. And, and then that is in that conversation in the book. And I was like, and then it becomes a thing more and more later. But I will say one of the things that I thought I had this as better in the movie is, is that during that scene where they, she delivers the packages and they have that whole conversation and Scott, like, asks her out and she agrees to go on the date. I think the movie's version is better because at the end of that conversation, I could at least kind of understand why Ramona would agree to going out with him at the end of their conversation in the book. I'm like, why the would you ever go out with this guy? Their conversation is insane in the book and makes no sense, and it's super cringy. I was like, what? Yeah. Not to mention it goes into more depth with the whole subspace highway thing in a way that I was very confused at what the whole exchange was even supposed to mean. There were several times in this book series where there were conversations that happened where I was like, am I stupid? What is. What is. What are the words trying to express here? It didn't happen a ton, but there was like, three or four times over the course of the whole series, and that was one of them where I felt like I was missing something. I'm like, what is this conversation even? I'm not even going to try to find it. Right. Read it. But I just. She's talking about the subspace highways and, like, maybe they don't teach you about that up here in Canada. And I was like, what? What? And then, and then I think it's supposed to be like, A bit. She's doing a bit. But it. But she's not doing a bit. [02:00:25] Speaker B: Because it's actually a thing. [02:00:27] Speaker A: Because it's a real thing. But I didn't realize it was a real thing at that point. [02:00:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:00:31] Speaker A: Because I had only seen the movie, and in the movie, it's kind of nebulous enough that it just feels like a fantastical thing. And that's why I think it works better in the movie, is that it leaves it. You can interpret it as metaphorical or as real, like, as much as you want. You know what I mean? Whereas in the book, they're, like, very explicitly like, no, this is a thing. There is this subspace highway that is created maybe by Gideon or something. [02:00:53] Speaker B: I don't know. I didn't get that part at all. [02:00:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. Because it's kind of alluded to later on that Gideon invented the subspace highway and the glow as a means to, like, control Ramona or something. But I never really understood. Good. And then later, Ramona ended up using the subspace highway in order to escape, like, awkward situations. I don't know. I. Like I said, I prefer that. The movie just doesn't explain any of that because I don't think it even really makes that much sense in the book. And I was like, whatever. [02:01:22] Speaker B: But we do get the shot where they're floating through space. [02:01:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:01:26] Speaker B: To the door. Which is very pretty. [02:01:27] Speaker A: It is very pretty. I love that. And I love the lead up where she's. I think there's a thingy over here somewhere. A thingy. A door. And then. Yeah. They float through space and into Ramona's apartment. Also, I thought this was actually probably could be a better. In the book. I don't think it made sense in the movie to include the chapter subtitles sometimes that they do. [02:01:47] Speaker B: Yeah, they only do it occasionally. [02:01:48] Speaker A: They do it, like, a few times. And I'm like, wait, what? Because, like this one, we get, like, the Ramona Come Closer, which is the name of that chapter in the book, in the movie. And I'm like, okay, I don't think that needs to be there, but whatever. [02:02:02] Speaker B: I feel like that was something they couldn't decide if they wanted to connect. [02:02:05] Speaker A: Because I feel like it doesn't continue through the whole movie. More so in the beginning. [02:02:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Ramona's rapid list of teas that she has in her apartment comes from the book also. Then they make out, and then Ramona changes her mind about having sex. [02:02:21] Speaker A: Yep, yep, yep. That all plays out identically where, like, he walks in on her changing and then closes his eyes and then she, like, there. Yeah. Then they. Yeah, that whole scene. I think that's slightly better in the movie because it's a little less Nice Guy cringy than it is. [02:02:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:02:36] Speaker A: Scott's whole interaction there is a little more like 2007 nice guy cringe. Like. Yeah. [02:02:45] Speaker B: Everything about Crash and the Boys. [02:02:47] Speaker A: Yes. The entire crash in the Boys set, we are crashing the boys, and then Wallace yelling from the balcony, is that girl a boy, too? And they go, yes. And she just flips them off, which is incredible. And I. I thought just. I love that moment so much. But then also the. The. The. The next song after that, they're like, this one goes out to the guy in the balcony who keeps yelling. It's called we hate you. Please die. Great. [02:03:16] Speaker B: After Matthew Patel shows up, I think Wallace is like, why is that guy dressed like a pirate? And he's just like, pirates are in this year. [02:03:25] Speaker A: Yeah. And I guess they're saying it's just like a pirate because of his striped shirt. That's, like, the only thing piratey about him or whatever. Yeah. [02:03:32] Speaker B: He just looks kind of emo. [02:03:33] Speaker A: Yeah, we mentioned it, but the comic animations covering the backstory, obviously, it just looks like those parts actually look like the graphic novel do. So. [02:03:43] Speaker B: Yeah, the demon hipster chicks were on point. Yeah. [02:03:48] Speaker A: Yeah. I have never paid attention to how hot the demon hips or chicks that he summoned were until this time. I was like, good Lord. I've never noticed that. [02:03:57] Speaker B: I thought the breakup scene with Knives was pretty spot on. [02:04:00] Speaker A: It is pretty spot on, with a slight caveat that the ending of it is better in the movie, in my opinion, because it's very, very similar where, like, the world turns black behind Knives. That happens in the book. And then they have this awkward where they're just kind of standing there staring at each other. But then the movie adds a little tag on it where Scott, like, awkwardly slides out of the frame, which I thought was very funny. He's like, okay. The gag that happens several times in the movie where Kim fakes, like, killing herself, and we get, like, the bang where, like, she shoots herself with the finger guns or whatever. This is in, like, the fifth or sixth book, and it happens in the movie, so I wasn't sure if maybe that that might have been something that the books took from the movie. I don't know. [02:04:45] Speaker B: That's, like, a small enough detail where I could believe that, which. [02:04:49] Speaker A: There were things I read when we were doing the prequel things that there were elements in the at least in the sixth book. If not maybe the fifth, depending on when it was written. That were stuff that he took from their work on the movie. So. [02:05:04] Speaker B: The line, bread makes you fat. [02:05:07] Speaker A: Makes you fat. And it's. Yeah, Michael Sarah's delivery just absolutely makes that scene like. It's very funny in the book as well, but it's. It's his performance of it in the movie. Bread makes you fat. Yeah, it's great. The grinding when he dares Lucas Lee to grind down the rail, and he's grinding down the rail. And then it keeps cutting back to Scott going, wow. Again, honestly, could be better in the movie, but it does come from the book. I think we do have the cut back and forth between him grinding and then. But it's elevated in the movie because of one Michael Cera's wow. But also the music cutting out. It's like this intense, like, as he's grinding and then it cuts back to them and the music's gone and he's like, waa. Yeah, it's great. [02:05:51] Speaker B: And then after Lucas Lee explodes, Scott's Ah, I didn't get his autograph. [02:05:56] Speaker A: His autograph, yeah. [02:05:58] Speaker B: Scott's phone call with envy. Pretty. Pretty spot on. Also, Scott punching Roxy in the boob. [02:06:05] Speaker A: Yes, you punched me in the boob. But also the still frame when he, like, knocks her out of mid. Yeah, that's exactly out of the book. That exact frame. Ramona mentioning. I said this earlier, but Ramona setting up that she dated a Todd once. Setting up the reveal for Todd later. [02:06:22] Speaker B: Knives is line, I've kissed the lips that kissed you. Yeah, that's such a teenage girl thing to. [02:06:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And then Todd knocking the blue out of Knives hair. In the book, it's not Todd. It is the bionic armed drummer who does it. But close enough. Which in the movie I was watching or I was when watching the Black Sheep video today, the drummer, I don't think she has a bionic arm, but one of her arms is like, all wrapped in a thing. Like, I think that maybe you're supposed to assume that underneath that is like a bionic arm or something. [02:06:53] Speaker B: Also, Todd having powers because he's a vegan. [02:06:56] Speaker A: Yes. Which is another one of those things that I think having even less of an explanation of the vegan powers in the movie. [02:07:03] Speaker B: Yes. [02:07:03] Speaker A: Because there is more of a backstory to that where we learn about him going to vegan school and, like, we get a little bit more backstory about, like, why vegan people have powers and how that all works. Not a bunch, but A little bit. On top of that, Brandon Ruth's performance of that character is incredible. But that whole thing with the vegan, when I was reading the book and all of the stuff with the vegan character with Todd, I was like, it's so clear that Brian o' Malley had one annoying conversation with a vegan and put it all into this character. Yeah, like one annoying conversation and was like, fuck vegans and put it into this character. You mentioned this earlier, but the whole Todd backstory and punching a hole in the moon obviously comes from the book. The. The back of the knee weak spot from the Envy fight, being in the Roxy fight comes from the book. [02:07:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Ramona's line, you're just another evil ex waiting to happen to Scott. [02:07:57] Speaker A: Yep. The line we are that I opened the. The episode with, we are Sex Bob omb, and we're here to make you think about death and get sad and stuff. Great. There is a giant pyramid in the Chaos Club and Gideon's club and the elevator shot of it going down, to which that. Absolutely. Because we know book six was written after the movie. That, to me, is probably one where it goes backwards, where I agree from the movie and then got put into the book, if I had to guess. But yeah, we nailed him apologizing to Kim. We do get the whole scene, like in the. In the movie, he runs in at the end and he apologies. He's like, band, you're all better, blah, blah, blah. And then he turns to Kim and says, kim, I'm sorry about everything. I'm sorry about me. And that line does come from the book. In the book, it's a whole different scene where they're at the bus stop and he's like talking to her. But it's the same line and the same idea. And then it ends with Ramona and Scott together going through a magic door, saying, we should. Maybe we could try again. I think in the book Ramona says, maybe we could try again. And the movie, Scott says it, but whatever. Close enough, close enough. All right. Odds and ends. Before we get to the final verdict. The. The 8 bit universal opening is super fun. [02:09:19] Speaker B: Fantastic. [02:09:21] Speaker A: And I said it earlier, but just from moment one, the energy and the camera work and the editing is just. It's the best and it still works and it's incredible. And I could watch this movie a thousand times and I would always find a new thing that is fascinating and incredible about the way it's shot and edited. [02:09:37] Speaker B: I thought it was interesting that the movie aged Scott down a year. [02:09:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I did Wonder if that's, like, let's make the knives thing slightly less like. But it's not. It's one year. [02:09:46] Speaker B: One year. It doesn't help that much. [02:09:48] Speaker A: If anything, you needed to age her up a year, not him down. Yeah, whatever. Yeah, yeah. I hate to say I agree with Quentin Tarantino, like, ever, but I agree that the movie needed those opening credits. They are incredible. And it's just. It's such a great, like, kind of, like, level set for the whole movie and, like, the style and everything you're about to get into. It's great. [02:10:07] Speaker B: My feelings on Michael Cera as a leading man have been previously documented on this show. I think he works a lot better here than in Nick and Nora's Infinite Playlist when. I think we talked about that in that episode. [02:10:21] Speaker A: We did. [02:10:22] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think he works better in this because he is just so pathetic. [02:10:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:10:27] Speaker B: And so is he, Scott. But I still don't buy him as a guy that has been with multiple very hot women. [02:10:33] Speaker A: Yes. [02:10:34] Speaker B: I just don't. I just don't buy it. [02:10:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Brie Larson, Allison Pill, and Mary Elizabeth Winstead. [02:10:41] Speaker B: I don't buy it. [02:10:42] Speaker A: No, no, no. I'm sorry. [02:10:46] Speaker B: Prior to reading these books, I think I had just assumed that Knives was a nickname. Like, when I had seen the movie previously. [02:10:54] Speaker A: I think I did. [02:10:54] Speaker B: But apparently it is her given name. [02:10:56] Speaker A: Is her given name supposedly. [02:10:59] Speaker B: Also. I know we talked about casting. [02:11:02] Speaker A: All the casting is incredible. And people have talked about how it's, like, retroactively, one of the greatest casts. [02:11:07] Speaker B: Yes. [02:11:07] Speaker A: Ever. [02:11:08] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [02:11:08] Speaker A: They just, like, holy. How. Yeah. [02:11:11] Speaker B: But Aubrey Plaza is truly inspired casting for Julie. [02:11:15] Speaker A: She's incredible. She's amazing. Yeah. As Julie. Anna Kendrick's great as Stacy. Every. Everybody is perfect. Literally everybody is perfect in this movie. I don't think I would change a single cast casting in the whole film. This is a fun little fact that I read when I was doing research for the prequel. In that scene where Ramona finds Scott at the party and he talks to her at the big wide shot where they're standing at the wall, that looks like a perks of being a wallflower scene or something like that. You'll notice there's this weird light switch on the wall, like, eight feet in the air, just, like there. And apparently that was just there at the location they were filming, and they thought it was fun, so they include that wide shot. But that isn't something they, like, added or whatever that was. [02:12:00] Speaker B: No, that's great. [02:12:00] Speaker A: That house just had a weird. [02:12:02] Speaker B: That is like the kind of weird, random thing that you see at a house. [02:12:05] Speaker A: At a house party. Absolutely. Why do they have a light switch 10ft up the wall by. Nothing. [02:12:13] Speaker B: That I really love is when I can tell that Chris Evans is having fun being in a movie. [02:12:19] Speaker A: Just like free Chris Evans. [02:12:22] Speaker B: I know. [02:12:23] Speaker A: Not even free Chris Evans. Free Chris Evans from himself. Because I think he can be in whatever he wants now. And now he only picks garbage. I don't. Yeah, he used to be in good movies. He was good and in good movies. I don't know what happened. I. [02:12:35] Speaker B: Well, I just like, I. There's something about his performances, like. And I think he's always good. [02:12:43] Speaker A: Yes, he's always good in everything I've seen him and he's been pretty good. I haven't seen some of his worst movies, but. [02:12:48] Speaker B: But, like, there's particularly something about him that, like when you. When he's having fun being in a movie, it just like bubbles over into his performance. [02:13:01] Speaker A: Yeah. And when he plays villains, yes, he's great. [02:13:04] Speaker B: He loves playing villains. [02:13:05] Speaker A: He gets to play more villains because this and Knives out are maybe two of his greatest performances and they're not even that particularly, like, you know, deeper. Especially, especially this one. Knives out has a little more going on, but it's just when. Yeah, you could tell he loves playing villains and he's so good at it when he gets to just chew the scenery and be a smarmy asshole. He's. It's amazing. And yeah, he needs to do more of that and not be in fucking the Electric State or Gray man or the Avengers 84 or whatever. I love how many practical light tricks the movie does. I never realized this before because we talked about this in Gerald's Game, how they did that, which that it works in a very different way. It's much more stylistically fitting in this movie. Whereas that, it's a much more dramatic, like, kind of impactful moments. But they do quite a few gags in this where things will happen where they turn off. They practically turn down the lights like in the background and will drop characters into like a single spotlight, like where it looks like they're on like a blacked out stage, basically with a single spotlight. It happens a lot throughout this movie and every time I think it's really cool and just really fun. [02:14:19] Speaker B: Okay, so we're gonna have to talk about. We're gonna have to talk about Ramona's. It Was Just a Phase, etc. [02:14:29] Speaker A: Yes. [02:14:29] Speaker B: In reference to Roxy. [02:14:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:14:34] Speaker B: Because. Oh, boy, oh boy. There's a lot of mess Happening here in both the books and the movie. [02:14:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Because it plays out pretty similarly in both. Is that Scott kind of it dawns on him who Roxy is, and we get this, like, the close up of his. In the book, it's his brain hatches an egg. In the movie, it's like a little meter that's like, it gets it or whatever. But he figures it out and. And he's like, wait, you dated her? And her response is, it was a phase classic. And then he says in response to that, you had a sexy phase. And boy, oh boy. Yeah. [02:15:13] Speaker B: And like, as much as I appreciate adding, well, I'm a little bi furious. [02:15:23] Speaker A: Hilarious. Because. [02:15:24] Speaker B: Yes, great line. [02:15:26] Speaker A: Because in response then Ramona goes, I was just a little bi curious. And Roxy response by saying, bi curious. Well, I'm a little bi furious. Which is, yes. Incredible. Incredible. [02:15:38] Speaker B: I do think, like. And it's not just this. [02:15:42] Speaker A: Oh, no, not at all. [02:15:43] Speaker B: But the. The casual kind of quote unquote, unserious homophobia and biphobia that is in this series does feel unfortunately, like, extremely particularly accurate to the time period. [02:16:00] Speaker A: Oh, my God. Yes, it is. It's that. It's that exact winter window where we were. Where. Where the culture. I say we. The culture and like, popular culture and stuff like this mainstream culture was chill with gay people. [02:16:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:16:15] Speaker A: As a concept. But were still had the remnants of making fun and not taking, like, not taking homosexuality seriously. [02:16:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [02:16:26] Speaker A: Where it's like, it's. It's. We're. We. We're still in the phase of like, ha. Let's just make fun of everybody and. And like, make jokes about, you know, gay people and stuff like that. Like, there's a ton of jokes about Wallace being gay, but at the same time, Wallace is a fully realized character who he's friends with. He's a great character. He's a. They all like him. They all love him. They, you know, like, he's not. His. His. His homosexuality doesn't even define it. It kind of defines him as a character, but not entirely as. And like, so it's this. We're at that weird middle point between like, oh, God, like every depiction of any sort of queerness is awful and. And bad versus a more progressive time where we're still obviously have a long way to go. But, like, we've gotten to a point where we're a lot more cognizant of all that stuff. This was that middle ground time where, like, absolutely everybody was kind of figuring it out or whatever in a way that was rough. [02:17:24] Speaker B: This, like, the book series and the movie is like a very, like, good kind of microcosm, like, example of that window. [02:17:36] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. 100%. Another example of it, of some of that kind of, like, unserious homophobia and, like, not, like, unintentional homophobia, again, because I think that's another thing, is that all of it is. Most of it, I think, is pretty unintentional, personally. None of it, I think, is trying to be, like, judgmental or, like, saying any of this stuff is bad. It's just like, oh, but what you're saying belies a. [02:18:03] Speaker B: Right. [02:18:03] Speaker A: A homophobia. [02:18:05] Speaker B: I don't think. [02:18:06] Speaker A: Acknowledged biphobia. [02:18:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think the intention is to be. [02:18:13] Speaker A: Malicious. Judgmental. [02:18:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think the intention is to be malicious. [02:18:17] Speaker A: No, no, absolutely not. I don't think. [02:18:19] Speaker B: But I think you're exactly right that it. The. The way that it doesn't take those relationships seriously. [02:18:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:18:28] Speaker B: Belies that, like, underlying an unexamined homophobia. Unexamined homophobia. [02:18:34] Speaker A: There's a lot of people have examined the surface level homophobia at this point of, like, hey, gay people are just people. We should respect them. We can be friends with them, and they should be able to get married and be in relationships. [02:18:44] Speaker B: Hey, like, maybe we should. Shouldn't do slurs. [02:18:47] Speaker A: Maybe we shouldn't do slurs. Maybe, you know, that they've gotten. We've. A lot of people at this point have acknowledged and examined that level of homophobia, but a lot of people have not examined or thought about the deeper layers of stuff. And an example of that that I think in the book is a big part of that, is that during the whole Lisa plot line, there's. When Ramona and Scott are on this rough patch, Ramona kicks Scott out for the night, and Scott goes and ends up staying at Lisa's place. [02:19:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:19:16] Speaker A: And this is where he ends up not sleeping with her, despite her, like, wanting to sleep with him. [02:19:20] Speaker B: He avoids the temptation. [02:19:21] Speaker A: He avoids the temptation. And then he goes to talk to Ramona and, like, try to patch things over. And we get to Ramona's place, and while he's talking to Ramona, Roxy walks down the stairs. And it turns out Roxy has spent the night at Ramona's place. And so they have both had this thing happen or, you know, they both stayed with an ex or an unrequited love from the past or whatever. And Scott is like, well, no, we didn't do anything. Like, he's, like, telling her, like, I, I. Yes, I was with Lisa, blah, blah, Blah. But then Ramona says to him, oh, yeah, Roxy stayed here, but nothing happened. We didn't even make out that much is what she says. And the book never addresses that. Scott doesn't even. I think he might have like a. A dumb, nerdy, sexy reaction to it, but doesn't like. [02:20:09] Speaker B: Right. The book does not take it seriously. [02:20:11] Speaker A: Does not take it seriously because cheating as cheating or anything like, the book does not acknowledge because the unexamined biphobia, homophobia of Brian Lee o' Malley while writing that scene is that he does not view two hot women kissing as a real, like, relationship or thing that means something. It's just something two women can do that he thinks is hot like that, you know, And I think. And, And I think he would admit that now if he were to go back and. Because I don't. I think Brian Lee o' Malley is probably, if I had to guess, a fairly progressive guy these days. I have no idea. But based on the politics of these books, I. He was somebody who was probably learning, because you can see him learning a little bit over the course of the books, I think, and trying to, like. I think part of the idea of making Ramona buy four books into the series, I think part of that is him being, like, wanting to have some more representation. I think that is part of, like, what it is he wants. He likes the idea of representation and stuff like that. And I. And obviously he has. There's gay characters in here and stuff like that. So I think he wants to be progressive and representative of, you know, and represent people with different sexualities and all. [02:21:17] Speaker B: That kind of stuff. Or at least that's what it seems like. [02:21:19] Speaker A: What it seems like. And so I. I could also see him going the other way. Who knows? Maybe he is a giant, like, nightmare. [02:21:25] Speaker B: Maybe. [02:21:26] Speaker A: I doubt it, but I, you know, I don't think so. But. But I do think that today, if you were to ask him about that, he would say, yeah, that. That wasn't. I. There was some unchecked, unexamined biphobia and just kind of homophobia there that I wasn't aware of at the time. Yeah, there's also a little light transphobia. Trying to be progressive. I think this. [02:21:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I need you to tell me what this is, because I didn't. I don't know what this is. [02:21:54] Speaker A: I think this is the same kind of thing where it's that, like, there's some transphobia that I think is. I got to fight. I'm trying. So I know the page number, but it's during a Section where the pages are so far numbered, so far apart that I can't find. Give me a second. Ramona shows up at the club, and Gideon says, ramona flowers. And so the prodigal son returns. And in the background, there are these two characters in the crowd. [02:22:19] Speaker B: Oh, okay, I remember. [02:22:20] Speaker A: And one of them goes, is that chick a dude? And the other guy goes, I'm Googling her as we speak. And then some other stuff happens. Blah, blah, blah. Ramona is standing there. And then we get those two guys in the crowd again, and they're. And Ramona's. They're looking at Ramona, and the one guy says, if she's a dude, I'm super, super gay. And the other guy goes, word. So. So there is some transphobia there that is trying to be progressive in the sense of, like, I don't care if that person's trans. They're hot, but they're actually a dude. Like, you know what I mean? It's that like. Like, I'm into how hot they are, but they're actually a dude. [02:22:59] Speaker B: Maybe kind of a similar thing to what you were talking about later, where we've, like, kind of. Of surface level examine some things, but we have not dug any deeper than very surface level. [02:23:10] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [02:23:12] Speaker B: Moving on from that, how do we feel about the literal mind control device in the movie? [02:23:18] Speaker A: I don't like it. That's another. [02:23:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's a little easier to understand than the book's version. So I get why the movie went with that. Because it's like, an easy visual. [02:23:29] Speaker A: Yes. [02:23:30] Speaker B: But it also felt it's so easy. [02:23:34] Speaker A: Easy and cheesy. You're just like, what? Okay, yeah, sure. I guess she's got a chip in her neck that. [02:23:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:23:40] Speaker A: To be fair, though, in comparison, the. The. The books isn't much better. It's like, oh, the glow is something. [02:23:48] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and you would have to explain, like, the entire subspace, because I think the idea in the book is that subspace runs, like, through your subconscious. So if Gideon is, like, always in her subconscious, he's, like, literally in her head, and you can, like, literally go in there. [02:24:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:24:08] Speaker B: But you would have to explain all of that within the movie, which we can tell that the movie was not. [02:24:13] Speaker A: Interested in doing, because it probably didn't understand it, because, again, I don't think the book really understands necessarily what's going on there. And so they're like, he put a chip on her neck. And you're like, all right, it's very silly. Yeah, it's not great. But again, both of them are kind of clunky and messy in their own way, so. Whatever. [02:24:34] Speaker B: Let's talk about Brian Leo Malley's plethora of fetishes. [02:24:37] Speaker A: It feels a little impolite to try to list them all. [02:24:40] Speaker B: I mean, I didn't necessarily want to list them all. I just. [02:24:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:24:43] Speaker B: I mean, we went ahead and did it kind of. [02:24:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:24:46] Speaker B: But, like, I just, like, I got to the end of this series, and I was like, I kind of hate that. I feel like I know what all of his sexual fetishes are. [02:24:55] Speaker A: Right. It's crazy. Yeah. I. Well, and then speaking of subspace, I thought this had to be a double entendre. Right. Is he. At one point, Scott is talking to Gideon, and they're talking about Ramona and the subspace highway things or whatever, and Gideon says to him, who do you think taught Ramona about subspace, anyway? And I was like, okay, that feels like an intentional little double entendre there about teaching her about subspace, as opposed to, like, another way of saying that. But, yeah. So, yeah, I do think we're maybe supposed to see. And not to mention, on top of that, there are numerous times that we see, or at least once or twice that we see, which we also see in the movie a little bit. The shot of Gideon sitting in the throne with Ramona like, sitting at his feet. [02:25:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:25:48] Speaker A: In the book, though, in the movie, she's at least wearing, like, normal clothes. In the book, she's wearing, like, fetish gear. [02:25:55] Speaker B: She's, like, handcuffed. [02:25:56] Speaker A: Yes. And she's like. And, like, wearing, like, strappy leather. Like. [02:25:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [02:26:01] Speaker A: You're like, okay. Yeah. I thought the same thing. When Envy showed up again in book six in her dress at the party, all of a sudden, and you're like, wait a second. She is dressed like. [02:26:13] Speaker B: Yeah, she's wearing, like, a bondage dress. [02:26:15] Speaker A: Yeah, like a strappy bondage dress thing. And you're like. And, like, these very strappy heels. I feel confident saying that Bryan Lee o' Malley is into strappy things. Leathery, strappy, bondage gear. Bondage gear stuff. Absolutely. And you can assume that because at one point, Gideon says to Ramona, dressing you or. No, to Envy. To Envy, dressing you up like a doll is very fulfilling for me sexually. And while that may be the villain of the story set saying that, I do think it's still a little bit. [02:26:47] Speaker B: I think it might also be the author. [02:26:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And then the. The whole thing at the end where Gideon literally. This was insane. And I was this is honestly a better in the movie that they didn't include this. Although I wish Envy had been in the end of the movie. It might have been interesting, but there's a whole sequence where when the sword fight happens, Gideon rips Envy's dress, literally says in the book, book, Envy's dress fell off, revealing a sexier dress. And then Gideon pulls a sword out. He had a sword hidden. Yeah, in her dress. And then it pulls out and reveals her wearing again, a very strappy, like. [02:27:28] Speaker B: Yeah, that one. Yeah, that one's basically lingerie. It's like got garters and high stockings and. [02:27:34] Speaker A: Which is very similar to how Ramona was dressed in the scene earlier. [02:27:37] Speaker B: Earlier where she was like, yeah, yeah. [02:27:38] Speaker A: His slave in the subspace thing or whatever. There's just a lot of that throughout the series. [02:27:45] Speaker B: Also, we can't forget to add to this list. Roller Derby girls. [02:27:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. A lot of rollerblading and. [02:27:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, and a lot of like that kind of alt style aesthetic. [02:27:57] Speaker A: Yeah, Very clearly into that. Look, I'm not judging those in glass houses, shall we say? I'm just commenting, I'm just acknowledging that I see you. [02:28:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. This episode, I will admit, did have me feel in some kind of way about the 2000s. [02:28:23] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [02:28:24] Speaker B: I just like a little nostalgic for a time when every other person you knew had a garageband and Amazon was an online bookstore or whatever. [02:28:36] Speaker A: No, absolutely. Yeah, I completely agree. It's definitely one of those things where you're like, oh, yeah, we say it was a simpler time. It wasn't really. It was just a different. Well, maybe it was. I don't know. Well, it was simpler in some ways, that's for damn sure. But yeah, before we get to the final verdict, we wanted to remind you, you can do us a favor by heading over to Facebook, Instagram, threads, Blue Sky, Goodreads, any of those places interact with. We'd love to hear what you have to say about Scott Pilgrim versus the world. Well, you'll see which one we pick here in a second. I think you got a feeling for, based on how we've been talking so far, but let us know if you agree or disagree. You can also help us out by heading over to Apple, Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to our show. Drop us a five star rating, write us a nice little review that helps get us out in front of more people. If you'd really love to support us, head over to patreon.com thisfilmislit Support us there 2, 5 or 15 bucks a month, you get access to different stuff at each level. Starting at the $5 a month level, you get access to bonus content. Every month we put out a bonus episode about whatever we want to talk about. We just put out our January bonus episode which is about Anora. I think it was a really interesting discussion and a really good episode. If you're ever wanted to hear people break down what is all that discourse that you maybe you heard about Anora, heard people talking about Anora. We really get into it and kind of figure out how we feel about it, maybe why people felt the way they did about it, what, you know, all that, that kind of stuff. So yeah, check that out. Patreon. And at the $15 a month level, you support us there, you get access, access to priority recommendations where if there's something you would love for us to talk about, you can Support us for 15 bucks a month. Request it and we will add it to our queue as soon as we possibly can. And this in fact was a patron. [02:30:13] Speaker B: Request from Kelly Napier. [02:30:16] Speaker A: Thank you Kelly for finally giving me an excuse to gush about EDB on this podcast. Katie, it's time for the final verdict. [02:30:25] Speaker B: Sentence fast. [02:30:26] Speaker A: Verdict after. [02:30:28] Speaker B: That's stupid. [02:30:30] Speaker A: Scott Pilgrim versus The World is one of the most faithful adaptations we've ever watched. The excruciating commitment to recreating a huge percentage of the books exactly as they were drawn is staggering. But the movie sets itself apart by trimming down a fairly meandering story into a two hour thrill ride. It is Edgar Wright at his most Edgar Wrightiest, and I love it. Every shot, every transition, every music cue, every line of dialogue, and every fight scene is meticulously planned and crafted to perfection. There isn't a wasted moment, and not a single second of the film feels like an afterthought. I couldn't say the same thing about the books. The book's biggest strength is the time it gives us to understand the characters. We learn more about why Scott sucks, how his and Ramona's relationships have shaped them, and we see them go on a slightly more complete character journey. But here's the thing. Even in the book, the thematic and narrative arcs for the characters still aren't that great, and the ending still feels kind of cobbled together. Those are the biggest problems in the movie, and they exist because they're the biggest problems in the books. But the movie makes up for the narrative and thematic sloppiness by being one of the tightest action comedies of the 2000s. Scott Pilgrim versus the World Remains A masterpiece of kinetic filmmaking. As clever, as clever as it is colorful. It's dessert. But it is as good as dessert gets. The movie is better. [02:31:55] Speaker B: First off, I just want to co sign everything Brian said because I 100% agree with his assessment. There were aspects of the books that I appreciated, mainly the expanded backstory and character development, but for me, those elements couldn't elevate the books above their excursive nature. There were numerous plot threads that didn't pan out to all that much. The expanding cast of characters was sometimes difficult to keep track of, and it was painfully obvious when o' Malley decided to make a big change partway through the series. Like Brian said, the movie isn't perfect. The ending is arguably weak and not every element has aged well, but boy is it fun. The music, the visuals, the cast. It may not be perfect, but in some aspects it is so close to being a perfect film. The books are okay. I'm fine with having read them, but the movie is better. [02:33:01] Speaker A: Katie, what's next? [02:33:03] Speaker B: Up next, we are doing something very exciting to me and to you. [02:33:08] Speaker A: I can't wait. [02:33:09] Speaker B: We are going to be talking about. About Frankenstein. [02:33:13] Speaker A: Yes. [02:33:14] Speaker B: Book by Mary Shelley. And we are specifically going to be covering the apparently very divisive 2025 Guillermo del Toro film. [02:33:27] Speaker A: Yep. Yes. We'll talk more about this on the prequel, but boy am I excited. This is one I've been. I haven't. We've both not seen it yet. We've been waiting to watch it because we knew we would be doing it. And I am so happy to jump in and finally see where I land because the opinions are divided on this movie. [02:33:45] Speaker B: Yes. [02:33:45] Speaker A: And I am so excited to finally see how we feel about it and just to watch it because I'm expecting to like it. But who knows? Maybe I will not. We shall see. But that'll be in two weeks time. We'll be talking about Frankenstein. In one week's time, we'll be previewing Frankenstein as well as hearing everything you all had to say about Scott Pilgrim versus the world. Until that time, guys, gals, non binary pals and everybody else, keep reading books. [02:34:12] Speaker B: Keep watching movies and keep being awesome. [02:34:29] Speaker A: Sam.