The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey

[00:00:04] Speaker A: This film is lit, the podcast where we finally settle the score on one simple question. Is the book really better than the movie? I'm Brian and I have a film degree so I watch the movie but don't read the book. [00:00:15] Speaker B: And I'm Katie. I have an english degree so I do things the right way and read the book before we watch the movie. [00:00:22] Speaker A: So prepare to be wowed by our expertise and charm as we dissect all of all of your favorite film adaptations and decide if the silver screen or the written word did it better. So turn it up, settle in, and get ready for spoilers because this film is lit. Theres nothing like looking if you want to find something. You certainly usually find something if you look, but it is not always quite the something you are after. It's the an unexpected journey and this film is lit. Hello and welcome back to this film is lit, the podcast where we talk about movies that are based on books. It is the first episode of our summer 2024 or 2024 summer series, I should say talking about the Hobbit. Obviously. It's one book split into three films, which we'll talk about as we get into the episode. We have lots of notes if you've ever joined us, for our summer episodes. You know, those things are, they tend to get long because for this, we both read the books and then watch the movies and discuss. So we have a lot more notes usually. Also, they're usually like more involved books and movies, like a lot of going on in them usually. But we do not have a guess who segment, since we both read the books and we don't this year, we do not have a predicting the series segment, which we often do in the summer series if it's something we've not read or watched before. So we like 50 shades, and I did that for Twilight because I have not read and watched those before. [00:02:02] Speaker B: And then I did that for the Hunger Games. [00:02:04] Speaker A: Hunger Games. And then we both did it for insurgent, divergent, whatever that series. So yes, we normally do that. If you have a suggestion for a segment we could add for the next two episodes of this, let us know. But we don't, we don't have anything for this episode, but we got plenty of other stuff to get to. Before we get into that, I wanted to drop a quick disclaimer here at the top, just, just because. Just a disclaimer about Lore and the Tolkien verse. We are not Tolkien purists. Or at least I'm not. [00:02:35] Speaker B: I don't know if you can describe. [00:02:36] Speaker A: Yourself way that way. [00:02:37] Speaker B: Neither a purist nor an expert of any kind. [00:02:41] Speaker A: I know some people are, and that's fine. I just wanted to drop a warning here right at the beginning that if you're here to listen to two people who are, like, lord of the Rings, Tolkien, like, super, you know, like loreheads or whatever, or you're here to, like, listen to us rip into this series and all the lore mistakes and problems and this and that and the other. Just a warning that that's not really, like, the direction it'll probably go. We have lots of criticisms, at least so far, of the first film and some of the. And whatnot, but it's not gonna be a ton of, like, super nitty gritty, like, well, you see, they did this, and that doesn't make any sense because time in the time, like, you know, canonically, like, there's not gonna be a lot of that. There's will be some stuff here and there we'll discuss, but that is not. [00:03:30] Speaker B: And there may even be some things that we're confused on because we don't know the lore. [00:03:35] Speaker A: That's another thing I'm sure we will get some things wrong. And then also, on top of that, might even annoy you. Cause there might be things that they change that I like. Cause I am not, not only are we not Tolkien purists, I personally do not care, care at all about, like, respecting the sanctity of the text, necessarily. I used to be a lot more that way. I've grown, honestly, a lot through doing this podcast. I have kind of grown to come to a place where I'm much more interested in how the adaptation works as a story in itself and, like, as a movie and that sort of thing and how it just works as its own thing. I'm not really concerned about, like, little. [00:04:12] Speaker B: Nitpicks about what I think that's true for both of us. [00:04:15] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. [00:04:16] Speaker B: Especially as I was just speaking for. We have done this series, which we're coming up on, what, like, seven years of doing this, and we have our little intro about reading the book before you watch the movie and blah, blah, blah. But it's really more of a bit at this point than anything. [00:04:37] Speaker A: Yeah. So I just want to throw that out there again, because sometimes these summer series, we get a bunch of new people who've never listened to our show, don't really know what you're getting into, because we do cover more popular kind of big name titles during the summer series. So, yeah, that's just a little. Little. A little advance warning. I say, warning. It's. It's just a little thing that. Just to set expectations of what. How we're going to talk about the Hobbit and the films and that sort of thing. So all that being said, let's get right into it. If you have not read or watched specifically watched because this will be a summary of the film. But if you have not watched or read the Hobbit recently we're gonna give you a brief summary of the film in. Let me sum up. Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up. [00:05:24] Speaker B: All right. This summary is sourced from wikipedia, so take it with a grain of Internet. Approaching his 111th birthday the Hobbit Bilbo Baggins begins writing the story of his adventure 60 years earlier for his nephew Frodo. Long before Bilbo's involvement, the dwarf king Thror brought an era. [00:05:48] Speaker A: That one got me reading the book. I was like, not Thor. [00:05:52] Speaker B: Thor the dwarf king Thror brought an era of prosperity for his kin under the lonely mountain until the arrival of the dragon Smaug. Smaug destroyed the nearby town of Dale drove the dwarves out of their mountain and took their hoard of gold. Thror's grandson, Thorin sees King there's so many thrs. I know. [00:06:15] Speaker A: It's Thranduil. [00:06:16] Speaker B: It's Thranduil, isn't it? Yeah. King Thranduil and his wood elves on a nearby hillside and is dismayed when they leave rather than aid his people resulting in Thorin's everlasting hatred of elves. In the Shire, 50 year old Bilbo is tricked by the wizard Gandalf the Grey into hosting a dinner for Thorin and his company of dwarves. Ballon, dwalin, feely, keeley, dory. Nori. Ori, oyne, Gloin. Bifur, Bofer and bomber. Good Lord. [00:06:49] Speaker A: I believe it's biffer. [00:06:49] Speaker B: But who? Biffer. Bifer? I don't know. [00:06:53] Speaker A: Biffer, Bofer and bomber, I think. At least in the movie, I think that's how they say it. [00:06:58] Speaker B: Gandalf's aim is to recruit Bilbo as the company's burglar quote, unquote to aid them in their quest to enter the lonely, mountainous. Bilbo is unwilling to accept it first, but has a change of heart after the company leaves without him the next day, racing to join them. Traveling onward, the company is captured by three trolls. Bilbo stalls the trolls from eating them until dawn. And Gandalf exposes the trolls to sunlight. Turning them to stone. The company locates the trolls cave and finds treasure and elven blades. Thorin and Gandalf each take an elf made blade, orcrist and glamdring, respectively, and Gandalf gives an elven dagger to Bilbo the wizard. Radegast the Brown finds Gandalf and the company and recounts an encounter at Dol Guldur with the Necromancer, a sorcerer who has been corrupting Greenwood with dark magic. Chased by Orcs, Gandalf leads the company through a hidden passage to Rivendell. There, Lord Elrond discloses a hidden indication of a secret door on the company's map of the Lonely Mountain, which will only be visible on durins day. Gandalf later approaches the White Council, consisting of Elrond, Galadriel, and Saruman the White, and presents a Morgul blade, a weapon of the witch king of Angmar, which Radegast obtained from Dol Guldur as a sign that the Necromancer is linked to an eventual return of Sauron. While Saruman presses concern for the more present matter of the Dwarves quest, requesting that Grant Gandalf put an end to it, Gandalf secretly reveals to Galadriel that he had anticipated this and had the dwarves move forward without him. The company journeys into the Misty Mountains, where they find themselves amid a colossal battle between stone giants. They take refuge in a cave and are captured by goblins, who take them to their leader, the great Goblin. Bilbo becomes separated from the dwarves and falls into a crevice where he encounters Gollum, who unknowingly drops a golden ring. Pocketing the ring, Bilbo finds himself confronted by Gollum. They play a riddle game, wagering that Bilbo will be shown the way out if he wins or eaten by Gollum if he loses. Bilbo wins via trickery, and Gollum notices his ring is lost and that Bilbo has it. Chased by the furious Gollum, Bilbo discovers that the ring grants him invisibility, but when he has a chance to kill Gollum, Bilbo spares his life out of pity and escapes. Meanwhile, the great Goblin reveals to the dwarves that Azog, an orc warchief who killed Thror and lost his forearm to Thorin in battle. Outside, the dwarven kingdom of Moria has placed a bounty on Thorin's head. Gandalf arrives and leads the dwarves in an escape, killing the great goblin. Bilbo exits the mountain and rejoins the company, keeping his newly obtained ring secret. The company is ambushed by Azog and his hunting party and takes refuge in trees. Thorin charges at Azog, who overpowers and severely injures him with his warg. Bobo saves Thorin from the orcs and challenges Azog just as the company is rescued by eagles. Summoned by Gandalf, they escape to the safety of the Kerak where Gandalf revives Thorin who renounces his previous disdain for Bilbo. They see the lonely mountain in the distance where the sleeping smaug is awoken by a thrush knocking a snail against a stone. End movie one. [00:10:30] Speaker A: There you go. That is a summary of the Hobbit. An unexpected journey. I think that was mostly correct. There's one thing I would say that is a very much a. The part where it says, like, previewing the return of Sauron or whatever says linked. The necromancer is linked to a sign that the necromancer is linked to an eventual return of Sauron. That's not in this, like, reveal. [00:10:56] Speaker B: I don't think that's a thing we know yet. [00:10:57] Speaker A: Yeah, we know it as viewers of the previous trilogy, but as it within this film, that is not really what. We have no idea what that's for. But other than that, I think it was pretty much accurate. So. All right, the way we're going to do this, we have it broken up into our normal segments. Better in the book, better in the movie. The movie. Nailed it. We're gonna go through all of those segments starting first with what we thought was better in the book. You like to read? Oh, yes, I love to read. What do you like to read? [00:11:32] Speaker B: Everything. So we're kind of skipping pretty far. [00:11:36] Speaker A: Ahead, the way this works. Just a reminder, if you. It's been a while since you listened to a summer series or if you're new here, the way this will work, we're gonna jump around in the timeline of the film because the better in the book segment is all the stuff we thought didn't either. Didn't work in the movie or worked better in the book or whatever. And so it's, you know, we may like this. This first one starts here kind of far into the. I say far. It's, you know, like 1520 minutes into the film or whatever. Because some of the other stuff we'll talk about in other segments we'll jump around when we get to better in the movie we will then jump back and go to the beginning of the movie again, kind of. It's the best way we found to do it. There is no perfect solution. But this is what we've landed on. So, yeah, we're gonna jump around in each of these segments. We kind of restart the movie, kind of. Yeah. [00:12:21] Speaker B: All right. So as I said, we're jumping a little bit into the movie because the first thing that I want to talk about for better in the book is the part where all of the dwarves are arriving at Bilbo's house. Because I think that it's pretty close. [00:12:37] Speaker A: Yeah. I actually had this in the movie. [00:12:39] Speaker B: Nailed it personally. But I found it to be a lot less whimsical and engaging than reading the book. [00:12:50] Speaker A: I mean, that's fair. I don't necessarily disagree. I thought it was pretty close. In particular, the part where they all fall through the door is a very specific moment that is mentioned in the book. One thing I did miss that I had him better in the book here that I agree with is that I actually really liked, in the book at least the idea of it that they all had color coded hoods in particular because they were, like, color coded based on relation. So like, the ones that were, like brothers or cousins or whatever had the same color hoods. [00:13:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Like a family color. [00:13:19] Speaker A: Yeah. And I just would help kind of telling them apart. And now we'll get into what they did with the dwarves here in our literal next point in terms of, like, the design of the dwarves and stuff. But I did think I did like the color coded hoods in the book. I thought that might have been a helpful detail, potentially, anyways. But, yeah, overall, I thought they mostly nailed it. But not quite as whimsical. Is a recurring that will be a. [00:13:46] Speaker B: Thing that you hear me say and allude to quite a bit throughout this episode. Okay, so up next, Richard Armitage. [00:13:57] Speaker A: Yes. Plays Thorin. [00:13:58] Speaker B: Plays Thorin. And he's very good. Does a good job with the acting. I don't know anything about him as a person. No, I have no idea. Literally, no. Nothing. [00:14:09] Speaker A: I actually don't even know of anything. [00:14:10] Speaker B: Else I see him in other than these movies. I really don't. [00:14:13] Speaker A: I'm sure I have. I just. Yeah. [00:14:15] Speaker B: So he does a good job. And he's very handsome. But he does not look like the rest of the dwarves at all. [00:14:25] Speaker A: I mean, I agree. And this actually gets into one of my biggest problems with the movie because it is so front and center. It's like one of the main, most noticeable things is the look of the dwarves. [00:14:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:40] Speaker A: I have really mixed feelings about the looks of the dwarves because to me, the issue is. And it kind of. This encapsulates. Encapsulates some of the broader issues with the movie as a whole. But they kind of. They're such a wild reign. The designs of the dwarves range so wildly from, like, complete comical makeup jobs. Like, I think bomber, the fat one. [00:15:03] Speaker B: Yeah. The really big guy with, like, the big looped braided beard. [00:15:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, he. Yeah. I don't know if he has a looped braided beard, but there's another guy who has the loop braided beard around his face and stuff like that. And then the redheaded, he may. I don't know, but he has a crazy beard. But he's like. It's a very, like, comical, like, fat suit and, like, makeup. And then, you know, they vary, like, from that level all the way to, like you said, like, Thorin and, like, Keeley, I think, or feely. One of those two, even both of them kind of. [00:15:30] Speaker B: But the one who's the younger one, which I think is keely, I think. [00:15:34] Speaker A: It is the one who ends up being a love interest in a future movie. That one just look like guys. [00:15:41] Speaker B: Yeah. They just kind of just look like some dudes. [00:15:44] Speaker A: And that range, I think, is indicative of kind of an issue with the whole movie where they couldn't decide, like, what visual style to go with. And so they kind of just did everything. And I think it makes for a. And again, we'll get into this more later with other stuff, but it just creates this, like, sort of dissonance in, like, how am I. How seriously am I supposed to take this movie? Like, what is the tone this movie is going for? And we talked about this in the prequel. Obviously, a lot of this stems from the fact that there was very little pre production time once Peter Jackson took over. The movies basically had, like, none, essentially. And so I think some of that probably has to do with, like, the visions of Del Toro and the stuff he worked on before Jackson took over and then Jackson taking over and his version of it and that sort of thing. And so it just ends up with this thing where you have this cast of characters where, yeah, some of them look like they belong in a cartoon and some of them look like just handsome leading men. Handsome leading men. And I. And it's just like, it's not that it entirely doesn't work, but it doesn't work enough. To me, that, and, again, is indicative of other issues with the film of just not being. Not picking a lane, I think, which gets even more complicated when we get to stuff related, because comparing it to Lord of the Rings, which we'll do a lot, the Lord of the Rings movies, obviously, we've covered those already on the podcast, and we both of us have a huge affinity for those movies. I think we only see, like, one dwarf, which is Gimli in those movies. [00:17:23] Speaker B: Right? [00:17:24] Speaker A: Like, I think. And Gimli is kind of in the middle of this range. He looks kind of like. He reminds me more of, like Balin looks in this one, the old guy with the white beard where he's like, he looks like a dwarf. Like, what you imagine a dwarf? Cause obviously Gimli has the huge beard and he has, like, prosthetics and stuff, but he doesn't have these overly comical, like, brains. [00:17:45] Speaker B: Yeah, no, there's nothing comical about his character design in Lord of the Rings, but he does still look like a dwarf. [00:17:52] Speaker A: He still looks like what you imagine a dwarf to look like. And then. And so some of the dwarves in this look kind of like Gimli does. But it gets to this point where, and I think I can understand the argument of probably what they're going for. Cause it tends to be the younger. The ones that look more like people, like just guys tend to be the younger dwarves, I think, slightly like Fili and Keeley and Thorin, I think, is relatively younger than some of them. I don't think he's, like, in the middle age range, I think, if I had to guess. And so I think the idea is, like, maybe some of the younger dwarves are still, like, there's just maybe, like, different. [00:18:28] Speaker B: They haven't grown into their dwarfness yet. [00:18:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Or that there's. That within dwarf culture. Like, there's different styles for different generations and stuff. And I think that totally tracks and makes sense that all being said, it still ends up you get something that feels just sort of, again, just like a scattershot of artistic direction. [00:18:48] Speaker B: Well, and I think you're right that you can sit here and you can come up with explanations for that range of different character designs, but there's really nothing within the text of the movie indicating a reason for the different character design. [00:19:04] Speaker A: It feels kind of strange, like, okay, so this guy again, but bomber looks like a cartoon character. [00:19:12] Speaker B: Yes. [00:19:12] Speaker A: And Thorin looks like Aragorn. And I'm like, I don't know what to do with this. Like, it's just so kind of strange. And along similar lines, another thing that I think actually works better in the book, which is a note that I had just randomly written down while we were watching it that didn't really go anywhere. But this makes as much sense as anywhere is in the movie, or, sorry, in the book, you're kind of allowed to forget about the other dwarves when they're not specifically being referenced in the text because you're not seeing them. Like, you're only, you know, whoever's being referenced in a given sentence about, like, what they're doing or what they're saying. You think about that dwarf, but the rest of the time you don't really. At least the way I was reading, I'm not, like, constantly, like, keeping 13 different characters in my. Or twelve, I guess, for the dwarves, different characters in my head. And so you're kind of allowed to forget. To forget them a little bit. And so it doesn't really bother me as much that I can't really remember their names or anything about them. Whereas in the film, it's kind of frustrating, at least to me, to constantly see these twelve characters on screen. And most of them I know nothing about. I can't remember their names other than a couple of them. And so, you know, Balin is, like, an important guy. He talks to Thorin a lot because he's, like, the old wise one. Thorin obviously is important. And eventually Kili becomes more important. And you see some of the other ones do stuff, but, like, you don't really know them or, like, remember what their names are or like anything about them other than what they look like. And I'm sure that's part of why they gave them such distinct, distinct looks, obviously is like, okay, you know, kind of similar to my thing with the color coded hoods. They're like, well, we don't want to do that. Let's do these very unique. Make each one look very distinct to make them memorable as characters. But there's. There's so many of them that even still, they just get lost in this muddle. And so every time you're watching all of these characters do things, you're just like, I don't know who any of these people are. [00:21:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:16] Speaker A: And to me, that wasn't an issue in the book because, again, you just kind of. It just, like, leaves. You don't really think about it. But when you're seeing them constantly in the movie, I found it kind of frustrating because I'm like, I don't know who any of these people are other than, like, three of them. [00:21:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:31] Speaker A: And I think that's a similar issue. And again, I don't know how to get around that because obviously you got to include them all or else people are going to lose their minds. [00:21:37] Speaker B: You cannot go about this adaptation cutting dwarfs. [00:21:41] Speaker A: Yeah, you can't be like, oh, we're going to use, like, four of them. Like, people are not going to. This is not going to. [00:21:46] Speaker B: Nobody's going to go for that. [00:21:47] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. But. So it's not an easy problem to solve. And I understand what they tried to do. I just. It's one of those where it's just. [00:21:54] Speaker B: I just almost think it would have been a better decision to let some of them fade into the background. [00:22:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:01] Speaker B: And to make the character designs, like, a little more generic. Generic? Like, a little more similar. And, like, not have everybody try to be this standout character. [00:22:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Because they don't get enough time to really. [00:22:14] Speaker B: No. [00:22:14] Speaker A: Like, even recognize them. You know, like the guy with the silver beard who has, like, the loops around it. Like, I think that's. That might be Ori, maybe. I can't remember, but there are one. Or it might be dory, but. And, yeah, it's just, you wanna remember who they all are because they are so unique looking. But then you're like, I can't. They don't get any time to do anything. I don't know. It's a tough problem, and it's not. It's not. I don't think there's a good way to solve it, necessarily. But, yeah, I don't think what they did works particularly well. [00:22:46] Speaker B: So moving on from that, so we move forward with our story. And while we're still at this dinner party at Bilbo's house, there's a line in the book that I don't think made it into this movie. I did not catch it. [00:23:02] Speaker A: No. [00:23:03] Speaker B: But I believe Thorin says this about Bilbo, I think. And he says he toasts to Bilbo Baggins or something like that. And he says, may the hair on his toes never fall off. And that is the kind of flavor within a fantasy world that I love, like, weird little sayings. And it makes sense when you know things about hobbits and you know that they have, like, really hairy feet and that's important. [00:23:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:33] Speaker B: Another thing that I wish that the movie would have kept was Bilbo borrowing one of the dwarves hoods and cloak. [00:23:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:41] Speaker B: When he catches up with the party. So getting to the first thing that we disagree on, I think. So this. This movie, I guess, expands out on. [00:23:57] Speaker A: A character because I would even say. [00:23:59] Speaker B: Just adds just as well. Is it Azog or Azog? Is it. I don't know. [00:24:05] Speaker A: Azog. [00:24:05] Speaker B: I think he's mentioned in the book. Yes, he's dead. He's mentioned as the orc that killed his thror. Yeah, like Thorin's grandfather. But the book or the movie resurrects him and makes him kind of a central villain in the story. And I just question whether or not the story needs that type of character. [00:24:39] Speaker A: I understand that, and I know that's a lot of criticism that a lot of people have. I like bringing Azog in and making him a central villain. I think only in the first two movies, from my memory, I could be wrong about that. He may still be there in third one. I don't remember. I've seen all these. I just don't remember anything about the second and third one. I like taking this character that has this interesting backstory with Thorin of having killed his grandfather, and Thrain goes missing, who is Thorin's dad, and it loses his mind. And I think he makes for kind of an interesting antagonist that, again, is based that has this kind of backing from the book and already has a pre built history with Thorin. I don't think he's necessary in the book at all. I will say this, that, like, this isn't, like, better in the movie for me, in the sense that I wish this character was in the book. I think the book, being the length that it is and the structure that it is, does not need this character at all. My argument, though, is that the movies do. That the movies do kind of need, or at least this first movie does kind of need a primary antagonist for Thorin in particular for him to kind of square off against. And I like taking one that is like an unfinished business kind of, well, you know, like relatively unfinished business backstory from the film, because I don't even. Or from the book. I'm not sure somebody else kills him. I think Dane is one of some other dwarf kills him in the book. So Thorne doesn't really get any resolution for that. And I like expanding that and giving him that resolution. I would say my biggest complaint with Azog in the film is that I wish he was an actual makeup character, more like Lurtz, as opposed to the CG kind of abomination that he ends up being. [00:26:31] Speaker B: He doesn't look terrible all the time. He doesn't look that bad, but he looks so uninteresting and especially compared to other orcs, especially in Lord of the Lord of the Rings trilogy and even the other orcs in this movie, he just looks like, so, like, smooth and clean. Yeah. Now they look uninteresting. [00:26:55] Speaker A: I don't think he looks uninteresting. I actually like the design. I just wish. And. And so we talked about in the prequel that he was built there, that he was replacing a. An actual makeup that Azog originally was a different orc that we see in the movie. Yeah, one of the generals who, like, gets killed at one point, but they didn't like him because they didn't think he was imposing enough, and so they created a. This. The new version of Azog to fill that role. And I like. I don't actually hate his design. I think he's kind of cool looking. I just wish they had had the time to actually make him, like, a full makeup character because he reminds me a little bit. I think this is what they were pulling on, at least somewhat. He reminds me slightly of the. The orc that that is, like the main, like, general in the Helenor fields battle. The guy who likes, when they throw a rock at him and he steps out of the way and spits on the rock, and he's like, you remember that guy? He's, like, kind of pale in smooth, but he also looks like an orc still, but he's a lot more pale and light skinned than some of the other orcs in the movie. And so he kind of reminds me of some of the design inspiration pulled from that character. But that character is an actual full body makeup character, and so he has a lot more presence, whereas this guy, again, every single scene, it's just cg. And in the very, very end scene, I think it mostly works like the big fight at the end of. I think he looks the best in that scene at night, like, in all the fire and stuff. But I just. I think it's a fine addition that is only necessary for the film. And I say necessary. I think you could make this movie without him. I don't think he's necessary. I just, like, I think it's a fine addition for the film. [00:28:35] Speaker B: And I don't even, like, disagree with your point that maybe we need in this movie specifically some kind of central villain. But, and this is a problem that I had the whole time I was trying to write notes for this episode as, like, trying to separate out this movie from the larger trilogy. [00:28:59] Speaker A: I didn't have that issue because, I guess partially because I couldn't remember anything about. [00:29:03] Speaker B: I was. I was really having that issue at all. Yeah, I was not like, I don't remember a ton of specifics about the other two movies, but I don't know. I was just really struggling with trying to focus specifically on this film, which is part of the reason that I do. I think have so much of a problem with the inclusion of this character because I feel like there are so many moving parts throughout this series, there. [00:29:31] Speaker A: Definitely is going forward. I would agree with that. And again, for me, I would have to, I may revisit it and say, I think he's a complete, it's a complete mess next movie. Like we may get into the next movie and I go like, I wish this character wasn't here. That may very well be the case. I'm, because I didn't have the issue of you, of separating him for whatever reason. I was very, I was able to very much kind of sequester this film as just its own thing. And for this film, I think it's totally fine. And maybe it would been better if he had killed him at the end of this one or something. I don't know. Again, without, once we get to the future ones, we'll revisit that, obviously, and see how we, how I feel about Azog then. But for this one, I did not have an issue. I had this other note here that I just wanted to bring up, because part of the backstory in this film that we get with Azog is we see where Thor and Oakenshield got like his name. [00:30:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:19] Speaker A: And that he, during that fight with Azog, he ends up picking up like a law, his shield gets broken or something, and he picks up like a log and uses as a shield like an oak log, which is where his name comes from. I looked this up. It's not mentioned in this book, or at least not yet where we are in the book. And it also did not happen in a fight with Aza. It happened at a different time when Thorin was younger. But I think it makes sense to move that little anecdote of that into that backstory there. I will say I do not like, because I didn't even realize this was the case until I was doing some research when Thorne, at the very end of this movie, and this is definitely better in the book because this is a dumb movie decision. And actually I found out this is a Richard Armitage decision, which we'll get to, or which I say we'll get to, we're talking about right now. But at the end of this movie, when he squares off with Azog again and he comes walking down the tree, he has a branch shield. And I had assumed that was just. [00:31:20] Speaker B: Like a branch, a branch from the. [00:31:22] Speaker A: Tree they were sitting in. [00:31:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:23] Speaker A: Turns out, no, that's the same branch. [00:31:27] Speaker B: He just carries it around. [00:31:28] Speaker A: Carries that around as a shield. Because if you look on some of the art for it, he's actually, like, bolted. Like, there's, like, metal, like, attachments on it, like, and stuff. Like, he has done some extra, like, reinforcement to it or whatever. But it's such a. It's. It's a terrible shield. You wouldn't do that. He used it in. It's interesting in the moment as, like, a spur of the moment, like grabbing a thing and. Yes, that becoming, like, a legend for your name or whatever. [00:31:55] Speaker B: I. [00:31:56] Speaker A: But carrying it around after that, I find particularly silly. Like, if you want to have it. If he took it home and put it on his mantle or something. Sure. But, like, actually using it, I think, is very dumb. And in particular, because it's just. It would be a nightmare to carry around. There's just so many problems. But anyways, I found out that apparently that was Richard Armitage's idea. He's like, oh, I should use that shield still. And they were like, sure, whatever. [00:32:17] Speaker B: So now, okay. I will say, though, objectively, is it stupid? Yes. Do I believe that thorin would do that? [00:32:27] Speaker A: That's fair. [00:32:28] Speaker B: Yes. [00:32:28] Speaker A: That is fair. I will give you that. That character wise, it may. [00:32:32] Speaker B: It might be a good character choice. [00:32:35] Speaker A: Especially for the thorn of the film. [00:32:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:37] Speaker A: Who is, you know, kind of a hot headed idiot who holds on to grudges and stuff and that kind of thing. So, yeah, I can. Okay, that's fair. You may have convinced me there that for the character of Thorn in the film, him dragging that log around to use as a shield, actually not the worst narrative decision, despite the fact that it's a horrible practical decision. [00:32:59] Speaker B: The scene where they encounter the three trolls in the woods, there was actually a lot of stuff that I liked about that scene overall in the movie. One thing that I really did not enjoy, though, was when they were fighting with them before they captured the dwarves. And I felt like it was just like a cacophony of movement. Like I could not follow what was happening on screen. [00:33:22] Speaker A: That's an issue. This movie has a lot. I think the series going forward will, from my memory, especially compared to the Lord of the Rings movies. And I think a lot of that probably has to do with the fact of the lack of pre production time for planning all this kind of stuff out. I mean, some of these fight scenes are very clearly choreographed, pretty specifically. But there's also a lot of stuff where you wonder. Because it is kind of just chaos. [00:33:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:44] Speaker A: Because there are so many characters. [00:33:46] Speaker B: Yes. [00:33:47] Speaker A: You know, it just ends up being, like, just people kind of like doing shit everywhere on screen and it's hard to, like, keep track of what's happening sometimes. So I agree with that. Like, and again, that was a kind of an issue I had throughout the film. I will say one thing I do like better in the movie here, though, that's related to the battle scene with the trolls is I actually really like having the dwarves all come in and attack and try to save Bilbo and fail. Because in the book, they just kind of walk in one at a time and get captured. Like, one of them walks in to investigate and then they don't hear anything from him. And then another one walks in and then they don't. And it's just like, totally. I'm not sure that would, like how you would show that in a way that worked at all in the movie. So I think having them all rush in to try to save Bilbo makes sense. I also like that it culminates with them giving up because the dwarves all grab Bilbo and they're gonna threatening to kill him and they're like, all right, fine, we give up. I think that's a perfectly good way to kind of shortcut how they get. [00:34:46] Speaker B: Captured by the trolls and come back around to where we need to be. [00:34:49] Speaker A: To where we need to be without having this weird, comical, super long they all just stumble in one at a time and get captured kind of thing. [00:34:57] Speaker B: And that is a thing that the book does multiple times as having them show up one by one or two by two. [00:35:03] Speaker A: Yeah. A moment, though, in the troll scene that I do have and better in the book is that I love that William, who's one of the trolls, they all just have, like, normal names. [00:35:10] Speaker B: I loved that they all had normal names. I was like, william georgian something. [00:35:14] Speaker A: I can't remember what the other one is, but I love that. I think it's William, like, seemingly does not want to kill Bilbo. The other ones are like, we should kill a mediator. And he's like, heck, no. He's like. He's like, defending Bilbo, kind of, which I thought was really interesting. And the movie doesn't really do that. This is a really big problem I have with the film. This one particular line and moment I thought was a huge mistake. Maybe the biggest mistake, like, single mistake this movie makes, in my opinion. I think this is right before. Oh, I think it's after they get the sword. That's what it is. That's what it is. They find the swords in the cave and Gandalf gives Bilbo the dagger sting, what will eventually become sting. And when he gives them that, Bilbo's like, I don't know. I'm not a. Like, I'm not a fighter. [00:36:02] Speaker B: I've never used. [00:36:03] Speaker A: Never used a sword. He's like, I'm not brave or whatever. And Gandalf says to him, true courage is knowing not when to take a life but when to spare one. And I hate that because getting to Lord of the Rings, the whole thing and in this movie and in this book, Bilbo's sparing Gollum. [00:36:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:25] Speaker A: Is the event that is the whole point of everything. The moment where he chose not to kill Gollum is literally the thing that ultimately culminates in the downfall of Sauron because Gollum can show up at the end to bite off Frodo's finger and fall into the lava and destroy the ring. So that's the whole point, is that Bilbo not killing Gollum and his mercy in that moment. And I hate the decision that apparently Gandalf needed to, like, give him that nugget of wisdom. [00:37:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:07] Speaker A: To me, the point is that Bilbo is that kind of person already. [00:37:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:13] Speaker A: Because of. Not just because he's, like, magically that kind of person. But I think a big point of, especially with the. And this is as close to being a Tolkien purist like that, I guess I'll be. Is that kind of the point is that the hobbits live, like, perfect lives. Their serene, pastoral lives are kind of like the idyllic lives that Tolkien thinks we should all kind of try to live. And I think the point is that living that kind of life growing up in that kind of communal, agrarian, pastoral society creates people that are kind and empathetic and good people, I think is like, kind of the whole point of the Lord of the Rings as a series. And so Bilbo doesn't need a high and mighty wizard to come in and be like, hey, by the way, courage is knowing when not to kill somebody. You know, courage isn't killing somebody. Courage is knowing when to not kill somebody. I hate that. Like, to me, that is such a complete misunderstanding of the entire point of the entire series that it's mind blowing to me that it would be included because it feels like they understand Jackson and the writer. [00:38:35] Speaker B: It seems like they understand so deeply. [00:38:38] Speaker A: All of the nuances of this of both the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings books. To include that, to me, is just wild. I don't know, maybe I'm making more of it. [00:38:47] Speaker B: Now, I agree with you. I don't like it either for the same reasons that you just listed. I also want to tack on that. I feel like maybe a studio note. [00:38:59] Speaker A: See, that's the thing. [00:39:01] Speaker B: Some studio exec was like, we need to explain this to the dumbass theater goers or something. [00:39:07] Speaker A: Like, we need to seed this for some reason so that when he doesn't kill Gollum, we have a thing, right, that, like, precluded that. And like, I think you could make the argument that, because I keep saying that, like, you know, I don't think Bilbo needed that lesson. I think you could argue that even in the movie it's not necessarily that he would have killed him had Gandalf not said that. And so it's possible that that line is honestly there more for the audience than it is for actually Bilbo. But either way, it's still unnecessary because I don't think the audience needs that line. I think that's, again, I think that's underestimating your audience a little bit, at least to some extent. Because, I mean, said, we talk about all the time how people have terrible media literacy and they don't understand what stuff's about and blah, blah, blah. But in this particular instance, I think, like, people know because the Lord of the Rings goes out of its way. The Lord of the Rings series in the movies goes out of its way numerous times. Gandalf, like, outright explicitly states how Bilbo not killing Gollum was, like, very important and he has some role yet to play in this story. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, it was, oh, it wasn't pity that stayed his hand or, well, you know, all that sort of stuff. So, like, I think there's enough with those other movies that we didn't need this line at all. And again, if it's meant for Bilbo, I think it's a gross misunderstanding of the, of Bilbo as a character and the series as a whole. If it's for the audience, then I think it's just point, like, cheap and unnecessary. [00:40:34] Speaker B: I agree. And I also think that Martin Freeman and also Andy Serkis have the acting chops to communicate what is happening in that moment with Bilbo and Gollum in a way that, like, even if you aren't familiar with Lord of the Rings that you can still understand. [00:40:52] Speaker A: I was desperately worried in that moment that we were gonna hear at the moment where he almost kills Gollum later, like in the movie or he's thinking about it. I was cause I didn't remember. I was horrified as that scene was playing out in the film that we were gonna get, like, an echoey voiceover of Gandalf saying, true courage is knowing nothing when to take a life. But. And I was like, oh, my God, please, I will turn this off. And they don't do that, luckily. Like, we don't get, like, a flashback to it because that would have been the worst. But I actually have a note about that scene later. We'll get to. But anyways. Yeah. That is maybe, like I said, the single biggest issue I had with the entire film because to me, it just feels like a complete misunderstanding of everything. But there's a little detail that I really enjoyed in the. In the book that does not make its appearance in the movie is that when they get to Rivendell and they're, like, getting down into the valley to get to Rivendell. Although I think in the books, the Rivendell was the valley and not actually the, like, whatever. It doesn't matter. [00:41:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:55] Speaker A: Because I keep calling it the last homely house or whatever. And I don't know if it's actually. I don't know if the actual, like, settlement is called Rivendell. It seems to be in the Lord of the Rings movies and stuff. [00:42:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:05] Speaker A: In the book, I got the vibe that the valley is Rivendell and that the. The, like, home. You know, Elrond's home isn't actually called Rivendell. But I could be wrong about that. It probably is. [00:42:15] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know. [00:42:16] Speaker A: It's a little thing that I just. Anyways. But as they're arriving at Rivendell, the elves are, like, singing from the trees and insulting them. And I just. I would have loved the idea of them, like, walking in because they're, like, singing about Thorin's beard and him, like, not dipping it in the water. [00:42:37] Speaker B: It would be especially funny because the elves in these movies are, like, so serious. [00:42:42] Speaker A: So serious. [00:42:43] Speaker B: They're so dignified and so refined. [00:42:45] Speaker A: Yeah. And they're, like, making fun of Bilbo for eating too much and stuff. And then I love Gandalf has to be, like, chill out, you freaks. Like, he's, like, gotta, like, chastise the elves and tell them to chill because they're, like, being jerks or whatever. I just thought that was very funny in the book. [00:43:03] Speaker B: A little moment in Rivendell in the movie that I did not care for. So they're at dinner and they serve salad like vegetables. And the dwarves are like. They don't know how to eat it or they don't know what it is. And I just think that elves eat girly salads is a pretty cheap and very uninteresting and very 2020 to very 2012 joke. [00:43:32] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. [00:43:34] Speaker B: Has not aged well. [00:43:35] Speaker A: No. In a series and especially from a director who in Lord of the Rings movies, for the most part, at least from my memory, it's been a couple years since we watched them, does not. It portrays very positive masculinity. The books and the movies both are chock full of portrayals of positive masculinity and that sort of thing. And generally don't stoop to weird stereotypes about gender or anything. You know what I mean? A weird out of place joke for sure. [00:44:10] Speaker B: Another little line from the book that I wish the movies would have included. When Elrond is looking at the elven blades that they found at orcrist and glamdring orcrist, the goblin cleaver. And he looks at it and he says, may it soon cleave goblins once again. And I would have loved to hear Hugo weaving, Sid. [00:44:37] Speaker A: Yeah. I can't do a Hugo weaving, but he's. [00:44:40] Speaker B: I think he could have done it with aplomb. [00:44:43] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. [00:44:45] Speaker B: But so they. They leave Rivendell and they go up into the mountains and they get captured by the goblins. And now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but when I was reading the book, when Bilbo gets separated from the dwarves and he, like, falls into the crevice, I interpreted that as him, like, sliding down a hill or something. [00:45:12] Speaker A: Yeah. I interpreted it as kind of, like, in the movie when they first fall through the floor and they're, like, falling down those slides. Cause, like, in the movie, they have a trap that corrals them into a little, like, pen or whatever. And. Yeah, they're, like, sliding down, like, a rock chute or whatever. [00:45:28] Speaker B: Kind of imagine, it says in the book he fell into a crevice. [00:45:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:32] Speaker B: And I imagine him, like, sliding down, like, a hillside within this. And in the movie, he, like, falls off a bridge and, like, down a cliffside. And I listen, I know it's a movie. [00:45:50] Speaker A: Well, and I will say this. To the movie's credit, the book does make an explicit point that hobbits shake off bumps and bruises way. They're way more resilient than, like, other races because of their, like, small, like, weird little or whatever. [00:46:05] Speaker B: Sure. But I do very firmly believe that this particular fall would have just straight up killed him. [00:46:14] Speaker A: Very possible. I was actually taking a note when that happened because I saw him, because he's, like, fighting a goblin and then he falls. And I saw him fighting the goblin. And I was writing a note and then I looked up and he was down in the bottom. [00:46:26] Speaker B: So I actually didn't see the fall so far. [00:46:28] Speaker A: So. [00:46:29] Speaker B: Yeah, but that's okay. So they're with the goblins, and they take the dwarves to see the great goblin, whose name I love. The great goblin. I love that. But this movie character we talked about Azog being a CGI monstrosity, but it pales in comparison to the great goblinous. Just truly a CGI monster of epic proportions. Also, we had a conversation, you and I, before we watched this movie, about the difference between goblins and orcs in the Tolkien universe and whether or not there's a difference. And we taught how there's a forward in the book explaining that they're actually the same thing and they're just called different things at different times. And that is all well and good, but I will very firmly maintain that these guys seem very different from all of the other orcs that we've ever seen in this universe. [00:47:31] Speaker A: So let's talk about that first thing, the CGI monstrosity of the great goblin. Yes, I completely agree. Cause another issue that so much of this movie has for me, and it's an issue I had with it back at the time, is it has that sheen of artifice that something like Chronicles of Narnia had a little bit at times where. Where, like, Lord of the Rings, the trilogy of movies, is chock full of CGI. There's tons of it. But I do wonder if part of the issue is that there's actually not that much CGI in the first Lord of the Rings movie. Like the first from my memory, at least. Not that there's none. But, like, the first movie is actually fairly grounded in the sense that, like, all of the Nazgul, for the most part, are all just like, dudes in cloaks on horses. And I'm trying to think of anything in that movie. Obviously, there's. The stuff with the Balrog is a big. And, like, the hordes of goblins and stuff, and the cave troll, like, there is CGI one. Maybe it's just timeframes and, like, how long they had to work on it to polish it and get it looking good. Because that's obviously a huge. A huge part of what goes into, like, why CGI often looks bad isn't because, like, the people working on it were bad at their job, because this is Weta Studios. It's, I think, the same people that did all the CGI for the Lord of the Rings movies with ten year better technology or whatever, so it shouldn't be worse, you know what I mean? But with all the production issues this series had and the. And the sort of sped up production cycle and everything that ended up happening with the director changes and everything, I wouldn't be surprised. And I'm sure this. I know this information's out there that they just had a significantly smaller amount of time to work on all the CGI in this. So it ends up not looking as good as it did in the Lord of the Rings movies. And there are some mediocre looking effects, especially in, like, return of the king and stuff in those movies. But this one, pretty much all of the CGI, not all of it. A lot of the CGI looks. It has this. It just looks too clean and it doesn't feel like it's in the universe. [00:49:41] Speaker B: On the reality of the world. [00:49:43] Speaker A: And so I wonder if part of that is like in the Lord of the Rings trilogy, they kind of build it up more slowly. Like, there is CGI in the first movie, but it's not as heavy as it is in this one, where entire action sequences are nothing but CGI. And again, the first movie has a little bit of that. The Balrog sequence is almost entirely CGI, kind of. But, like, we don't really go ham with it until return of the King where, like, we're on these huge battlefields with all the fun. Like, that's all obviously CGI. But I wonder if the buildup of it helped in that series. But also, I think they just had more time and stuff. But even beyond that, I think a big part of it, and this kind of goes back to the character design of the dwarves and stuff. Stuff is that I think a lot of the art direction and stuff in this movie, while very good, the sets and stuff, a lot of them. Some of them feel better than others. And it's that kind of mixed bag where, like, some of it feels very real and lived in and great. Anytime they're in bag end feels exactly like the original trilogy because it's the exact same sets, whereas some of the other stuff. And there are times throughout the movie where they're like, the sets and stuff they're on feel good, but other times the sets and stuff feel kind of barren and kind of clean and kind of. It's a thing I talked about very specifically in chronicles and Narnia of an issue I had with the series, it just. It doesn't feel as lived in as, like, the Lord of the Rings series does, like, everything, every single millimeter of that movie for them, or at least the first couple movies. Again, there are some issues in some of the return of the king stuff, but it's so, like, meticulously detailed and, like, weathered and aged, and it all feels so real, whereas in this movie, it all feel, so much of it feels so fake in a way that just doesn't really work. [00:51:34] Speaker B: And this is going to be a thing that comes up again for me over and over throughout the series, I think, is that. But how do I put this? I think it was to these movies detriments that they are kind of naturally going to be compared to Lord of the Rings. And in this case, in particular, for all of the reasons that you mentioned, but also Lord of the Rings issues with Return of the kingdom notwithstanding, which. [00:52:07] Speaker A: I love Return of the king. I'm just saying, I think overall, it's a little bit less, like, meticulous. I don't know, the CGI is a little heavier handed in that one in a way that feels more like this movie. [00:52:16] Speaker B: Overall, Lord of the Rings is just a really good example of artfully combining practical effects with cg and kind of doing that in a way that is really meticulous and results in something that builds out a complete and very real feeling world. And, you know, if you're gonna hold pretty much anything else up to that, it's gonna come out feeling like garbage. [00:52:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And it obviously almost assuredly comes down to the fact that a lot of that in order to blend practical effects with cg as well as the Lord of the Rings films does, takes an insane amount of planning and production work because you have to make all these sets. You have to craft all these models and makeups. You have to figure out how, where, you know, there's so much planning that goes into that level of filmmaking where you're blending huge practical sets and huge, practical, you know, creatures with cg and all that sort of stuff. That takes so much pre production work. And we, you know, we didn't go into all the details, but the fact that this movie had so little. This series had such a truncated pre production time and the fact that it was ten years later and technology had advanced so much, they probably just got to the point where they're like, we don't have time to do this stuff to do the work we need to blend the practical with. I'm sure Peter Jackson would have loved to spend a bunch of time. I guarantee he would have loved to make a practical version of the Goblin king or the great goblinous. That is to where most, because most of the time we see him, he's just sitting in a chair. Like, it's not like that couldn't be a practical makeup. It could. [00:54:02] Speaker B: Right. [00:54:02] Speaker A: There are other times where he does some stuff, but you could have some of this be practical, some of it be CG, and you could blend it in a way. And I'm sure Peter Jackson would have loved to do that, but when you have two months of pre production time, you just don't. He spent years and years and years in pre production on the Lord of the Rings movies. And so I like that. And my other point was that because technology had gotten so much better, we're ten years later, they knew they kind of could rely on CGI to kind of COVID through some of the issues. And, like, we don't have time to plan this all out, so we'll just kind of do it in post. [00:54:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, limp to the finish line. [00:54:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And so, like, that's another big part of it is that had the technology been worse, you have to be more creative and you have to use more practical effects and figure out and, you know, supplement it with CGI. Whereas this one, anytime they, they got to a scene where they're like, well, this is going to take a lot of time and work, they could go, we'll just do have this. We'll just do it CGI. Like, we'll just have this all be CGI, you know, for the. And again, that's maybe short selling this movies a little bit, but I do think that's probably a big issue of what was going on. So to your second point, your second question here about that, these guys seem very different than orcs and they're called goblins in this movie. I think that the movie's universe and Peter Jackson's universe, there actually is a difference. I think goblins are their own thing. I think orcs are their own thing. I think maybe even hobgoblins are their own thing. Obviously Uruk Hai become a different thing later in the Lord of the Rings movies. But I think goblins are, which is also how when I first read this series, I interpreted it. So it's not outlandish to me to interpret the series that way of the goblins being slightly different than orcs and having them be kind of their own species thing or whatever. And so, yeah, I actually think that Peter Jackson just kind of made the creative decision. These are goblins. They're different than orcs. They look different. They kind of have their own thing going on. Whereas in the preface to this, like you said, or in the forward to this, it says that there is no human word for orc or english word for orc or whatever. So anytime you see goblin or hobgoblin, that just means orc. And so essentially, in this book, it's saying, like, orcs, goblins, they're all the same thing. Very clearly not the same thing in the movie. [00:56:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:23] Speaker A: Or they're just. Or if they are orcs, they're a completely different. [00:56:26] Speaker B: And I don't. I wouldn't even have a problem with them being, like, different branches of the same orc family tree. But it could. [00:56:34] Speaker A: That could be the case. But I think they are. And because they use the word goblin and they call him the great goblin, I think that is. I think it is the case that they, in the Peter Jackson universe of Lord of the Rings, he decided these are different things, which I have fine with. I actually don't mind that change at all. I think that makes sense. It's totally fine. It also fits more in line with, like, modern perceptions of. Because fantasy has evolved since 1939 when Tolkien wrote the series. And so the idea of, you know, in modern fantasy, goblins and orcs do tend to be different creatures or whatever, slightly different creatures in most fantasy properties. So again, I think it's totally reasonable change to be like, yeah, they're just a different thing. There are goblins, there are orcs. They're not the exact same thing. [00:57:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. That's fair. The scene with Gollum and Bilbo, kind of like the classic scene from this property. [00:57:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:32] Speaker B: I had read this book before. It had been a while since I'd read it. Maybe like, probably going on 15 years now since the last time I had read this book. And I found the part of the book where they're doing their riddle battle, but specifically the moments where Gollum is, like, remembering back to his previous life as a non creature to be so profoundly sad. [00:57:58] Speaker A: Yeah, I will say I will get to it. I have a better in the movie note. I think the movie captures a little bit of that with one little change. [00:58:05] Speaker B: They made a little bit. [00:58:06] Speaker A: We'll get to that and better in the movie in a minute. But, yeah, no, I would agree. One thing in this scene that I wasn't a huge fan of in the movie because it also retconned something from the Peter Jackson movies, actually, if you remember. But is how Bilbo finds the ring is that in this movie, they change it so that we see Gollum because Bilbo is fighting another goblin. They fall, and the goblin's laying there injured. And Gollum shows up. And I actually kind of like that him, like, coming up and, like, dragging the goblin way is, like, creepy and weird. And we know he, like, kills goblins. He mentions it in the book. So I didn't mind that. But while he's doing that, the ring, like, flies out of his. He has blanket on his loincloth or whatever. It, like, flies out of the pouch on his loincloth and, like, bounces. And I think Bilbo sees it. Maybe he doesn't. Cause he then just stumbles upon it later. But we see him, like, we see the ring fly out. And then Bilbo, as he's, like, walking after Gollum, is holding up sting, which is glowing. And he glances down and sees the ring and goes, hmm, what's that? And picks it up. And in the book, he just is scrounging around in the dark, and his hand literally just kind of closes around it. And he's like, oh. And he realizes, and he just sticks it in his pocket and doesn't really think about it. It doesn't really matter. It's not that big of a change. But I will say this. In the Lord of the Rings movies, we see this moment in, like, a flashback. And it is the scene that plays out in those movies is what the Hobbit book describes, which is Bilbo just, like, crawling through the dark on the floor and, like, coming up with the ring in his hand and being like, oh, okay. Again, it's not a big deal. But I didn't think it was a necessary change. It was just there so that we can see how the ring got there so people didn't go, oh, he just, like, finds the ring. Like, what is. I don't know. I just didn't think it was a necessary moment at all. [01:00:02] Speaker B: I 100% agree. So then we come up on another scene that, for me, was just a cacophony of motion. [01:00:12] Speaker A: Yes. [01:00:13] Speaker B: And things happening even worse than the troll scene. [01:00:16] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. [01:00:16] Speaker B: By, like, a lot. One moment in this that I specifically really did not like was the giant rolling boulder. [01:00:23] Speaker A: And what you're talking about here is the escape from the goblin. [01:00:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:27] Speaker A: Yeah. As they're running out of the goblin town or whatever. Yeah. No, I agree. I think the Goblin town escape has some fun moments in it. There are some little set pieces that I like. The little moment where they get on that one bridge that's swinging and, like, it swings over and they can't quite get off and, like, a few of them get off but then it swings back and some goblins jump on the bridge with them and they're, like, fighting them and then it swings back and then they cut it. Like, there's some little set piece moments that I think are really fun and remind me of some of the better moments from the Lord of the Rings movies. And there's the part with the ladder where they put the ladder onto the guy's heads and then push him off the ledge. And then the ladder creates a bridge and they run over the ladder and then the last guy hits it with his hammer. And there's some little stuff like that. But those are the moments within the larger scene that are cool because you can tell what's happening. And then the scene as a whole, though, like you said, is just this loud, obnoxious mess that is, like, impossible. [01:01:26] Speaker B: To, like, 500 things are happening at once and then, like, at the end and they're all on the big wooden platform thing and it falls forever. Forever. [01:01:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Again, I agree. Like I said, there are some small moments within that scene that I think work well and are fun. But just as a whole, it is nothing great. It's too chaotic. The scene where Bilbo decides not to kill Gollum. [01:01:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:55] Speaker A: I think overall works fine in the movie. I think it's just a little too long. I think they linger. I think the edit just needed to be tightened up a little bit and they linger on it so long. That was actually the reason I thought we were gonna get the echoey voiceover of Gandalf being like, oh, courage is not choosing when not to kill people because I think it just sits there a little. Like, we cut back and forth between Gollum's sad face and Frodo, like, or Bilbo, like, contemplating whether or not he's gonna kill him. Like, one or two times too many. I think it could. Like, if that scene is 30 seconds long, it could have been like 20 seconds long and it would have been fine. It's not a big deal. It just needed to be edited a bit tighter, in my opinion. [01:02:36] Speaker B: Another kind of issue that I had with this movie was how little a sense of time passing there was. Especially because the book actually goes to pretty great lengths to let you know how much time has passed. Like, we get multiple times. Like, Bilbo will note the passing of the seasons or they'll say specifically how long they stayed in a specific place. And in the movie, I'm like, I don't know. They've been traveling for a while, I guess, but for how long? Has it been weeks? Has it been months? I don't know. [01:03:12] Speaker A: Yeah. And, yeah, you don't really know. And it is. I don't think it's a huge detriment. [01:03:18] Speaker B: It's not as detrimental as some of the other things we've already discussed, but it is kind of, you know, it's just one of those things where as a viewer, as a person who is consuming a story, it kind of holds you off kilter a little bit to not know, to like, not understand what the passage of time is. [01:03:39] Speaker A: Cause that's a big part in understanding the scope of the journey. Like how far are they going where, you know, like how long as it's taking them. Yeah. It's part of kind of establishing the arduous nature of their journey, if, you know, oh, they've been on the road for weeks or, oh, and then they stayed at Rivendell for a month or whatever. Like, it just. It's helpful to know that kind of stuff. [01:04:01] Speaker B: On my very last note here, I really love the song that the orcs sing in the book when they're all trapped in the tree. I really love the funny little, little birds song. And I demand that these orcs sing a little song. I want it. Yeah, I want Azog to sing me a little song. [01:04:26] Speaker A: I will say I did like that the Goblin sang the Goblin song in Goblin town. Yeah, that was another fun moment. Which might be in the movie. Nailed it. I can't remember, but they do sing the little Goblin song. Anyways, I think that is in movie. Nailed it. We'll get there. Yeah, the orcs don't get to sing a song. [01:04:44] Speaker B: Azog should have busted out a microphone. Just sing. And I will admit too, that a big part of my kind of issues with this movie is that my Hobbit movie is the 1977 animated Hobbit movie. Like, as I was reading this book, that's what I'm picturing in my head. [01:05:03] Speaker A: Which I've never actually seen. [01:05:03] Speaker B: I'm not picturing Martin Freeman and company. I'm picturing the little Rankin bass creepy animations. [01:05:15] Speaker A: That is fair. Alright. That was all the stuff we had for better in the book. It's time to go ahead and talk about what we thought was better in the movie. My life has taught me one lesson, Hugo, and not the one I thought it would. Happy endings only happen in the movies. There's a line in the very opening, the first page of this book that cracked me up where they're describing. [01:05:42] Speaker B: He's a very, like, in depth description. [01:05:44] Speaker A: Very in depth description of Bag End. [01:05:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:47] Speaker A: Specifically, but of Hobbit hole. And it says at one point, with floors tiled and carpeted. And I was very glad in the films they decided against carpeting the Hobbit holes. Now, that could mean, like, rugs, I guess. [01:05:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [01:06:00] Speaker A: But it does say carpeted, which to me implies, like, carpet. You know, like a modern home with carpet flooring. [01:06:08] Speaker B: I mean, I would bet that that means rug. [01:06:12] Speaker A: I agree. [01:06:12] Speaker B: Because of, like, the historical kind of nature of it. And they don't have vacuum cleaners, but. [01:06:18] Speaker A: Okay, my point was just the word carpeted made me imagine a bag end from the film, but with horrifying, like, modern carpet. [01:06:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:29] Speaker A: And that was disgusting to me. And so that made me laugh and that I was, again, almost tongue in cheek, including this. Because I. I agree that it meant, like, rugs, which they have rugs in bag end all over the place. But when I saw carpeted again, I was. [01:06:44] Speaker B: We are both carpet haters. [01:06:46] Speaker A: Yes. So, yeah, that was why I was laughing at that line. I think it's a good decision. And maybe this is even a change from what I said in Lord of the Rings. But I think it makes sense for Gandalf to not have a blue hat. [01:07:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:07:02] Speaker A: Cause in the book, he is described as having a blue hat and a silver scarf. And a silver scarf. Whatever. But the blue hat, he's canned off the gray. [01:07:09] Speaker B: He's very fashion forward. [01:07:10] Speaker A: Just make him gray. It's fine. I think it works. [01:07:14] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, he has to look like he does in. [01:07:17] Speaker A: Yeah, well, obviously, yes, he has to look how he does in fellowship. But even then, they made that change in fellowship. Cause I think he's described the same in fellowship. And I just think it makes sense to make it all gray instead of, like, a blue hat. But I mean, it is kind of a blue gray. Blue's not that far from where. [01:07:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess it's kind of a blue gray. [01:07:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:38] Speaker B: I think they should have given him, like, a spangly silver scarf. I think that would have been good. I would have liked that. When this movie initially opened, I had forgotten how it started, and I kind of was initially expecting to hate it, but I really. I did not mind opening with Bilbo writing the book. And then we get the backstory with the dwarves and smaug. And I think it makes sense. And I think it's also in line with kind of the established storytelling style. Yeah. Of Lord of the Rings. And then the bit with Thorin and Thranduil. I don't think the beef between dwarves and elves needed additional explanation, but I didn't mind it. [01:08:28] Speaker A: Yeah, it's fine. No, I agree. One, I really love doing that because we get to start with concerning hobbits, which will never knock you. It's maybe my favorite song in the Lord, which I like the entire score, but it's maybe my favorite song in the Lord of the Rings score. But, yeah. I also like seeing the backstory and setting up the Arkenstone, which the Arkenstone does come up eventually, as mentioned later in the book. But I think setting it up here because we do get this backstory relatively early in the book. It's once they all show up. Thorin tells this backstory. I think it's Thorin, one of the dwarves tells the backstory. So we get it fairly early in the book. But it's not like first thing like it is here, which I think works. But dark and Stone is not mentioned in the book yet. And I like also setting up because, at least, again, whether or not I like where it'll go eventually. But I do remember that Thorin kind of gets the gold crazy. Whatever thing, which I don't remember if that's in the book or not. [01:09:21] Speaker B: He gets the treasure crazy. [01:09:23] Speaker A: Yeah. And so they set that up here by establishing that thror ended up kind of being corrupted by all the gold and kind of lost his mind to kind of giving us some foreshadowing for that. And that the greed is what kind of prompted smaug to show up because they were hoarding all this gold and kind of setting up thematically stuff that we're going to get to eventually and is going to be the through line about greed and hoarding and not hoarding wealth. Yeah, exactly. And that sort of thing. So I liked all that. I think thranduil, introducing him probably makes sense here early on because he's not mentioned at all, like anything with the elves. I think it kind of makes sense, least a little bit. Set that up and. Yeah, that being said, I think it's kind of silly in the movie how they, like, all show up and stand and watch and then just leave. Whatever it is. [01:10:11] Speaker B: Kind of a dick move. [01:10:13] Speaker A: It's just like a weird. Okay, yeah, very funny. But, like, why did you all come here just to watch and then leave? Whatever. Sure. Fine. It's fine. Because, like, realistically, it's more like the. In the Lord of the Rings. You know, they talk about, like, who is it? Oh, Boromir is. Or not Boromir. Somebody is like, where were the. [01:10:32] Speaker B: Oh, where was Gondor when the Westfold fell? [01:10:34] Speaker A: Gondor when the Westfold or Theoden. It's like, where was Gondor when the Westfold fell? You know, it's that kind of moment, right? But, like, without. It's like. Except if we had set that up by, like, Gondor. Like, Boromir, like, standing on a cliff, like, watching as the Westfold fell and being, like, flipping him the bird and, like, rolling away. It's kind of silly, but, like, whatever, it's fine. Also, in the prologue, it works because you don't necessarily interpret that as maybe. [01:11:00] Speaker B: Yeah, maybe it's not completely, like, literal. [01:11:02] Speaker A: Literal, yeah, it is more of, like, the story about what happened. And so we're seeing more, you know, emotionally what went down as opposed to, like, literally what happened. I think it's fine. It all feels very Lord of the Rings prologue. I will say it looks a bit in the movie. It's all very cg heavy and just. [01:11:19] Speaker B: Yeah, like, you know, like I said, it feels in line with that kind of narrative style of starting out with a prologue. Is it as good as the prologue in Lord of the Rings? Nothing is. [01:11:30] Speaker A: No, not even close. Primarily because they don't have Cate Blanchett narrating this one. I think Balin might be. I'm not sure who it is, but it's some guy. And like you said, I actually don't even mind working Frodo in. I was worried I might not like that. But having Bilbo be writing the Red Book of Westmarch, which is what the book he's writing is called, we also get a fun Sacksville Baggins reference that I don't know if they ever. There might be, like, one in the Lord of the Rings movies, but I like having a more explicit one here because they're kind of play a major role, relatively speaking, in the. In the Lord of the Rings books. The only thing here that kind of stuck out to me that I wasn't. That didn't. Wasn't, like, amazing. Was that the noticeable de aging on Ian Holm? [01:12:14] Speaker B: Yeah, it just, you know, it's old Bilbo for anybody who doesn't immediately. [01:12:19] Speaker A: Sorry. Ian Holm plays Bilbo in the Lord of the Rings movies, and he plays. Plays himself again in this. [01:12:24] Speaker B: Yeah, the de aging. I was pretty noticeable throughout, I thought. [01:12:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:12:29] Speaker B: And I'm willing to give it, like, a little bit of a pass on the elves because they are supposed to look kind of weird and otherworldly. Yeah. [01:12:36] Speaker A: It's not as big of a deal. [01:12:37] Speaker B: But, like, everybody else. [01:12:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:12:41] Speaker B: Although, to be fair, we have not seen Orlando Bloom yet. And I feel like I do remember his being pretty bad looking. [01:12:49] Speaker A: It seems like you wouldn't have even needed Orlando Bloom still look fine in 2020. I feel like he doesn't look that much older. [01:12:56] Speaker B: Maybe I'm misremembering, but I feel like I have a memory of seeing him in one of the later movies and being, like, wolf. [01:13:03] Speaker A: That's very funny to me because it's one of those things where elves are already ageless. So even if he. I don't know, like, I don't think you would need to make him. You would just need. He would need to look close enough to how he looked in Lord of the Rings. Like, he doesn't need to look younger than he looks in Lord of the Rings. Cause L's lifespan are infinite, essentially, anyways, or whatever. Like, super long. So, like, the timeframe between the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings in, like, the universe, Legolas, age 60 years. [01:13:32] Speaker B: Like, nothing. [01:13:33] Speaker A: Which is, like, nothing. So, like, as long as he doesn't look considerably older than he did in the Lord of the Rings movies. Yeah. [01:13:40] Speaker B: Again, I could be wrong. I feel like I remember them doing, like, a de aging thing on him. [01:13:45] Speaker A: That's interesting. [01:13:46] Speaker B: Which I agree with you. They probably didn't need to. Like, they probably could have just given him, like, a rejuvenating facial, extra makeup, like, a blonde wig, and he would have been fine. [01:13:55] Speaker A: Well, also, he probably just shouldn't have been in the movie, but whatever, we'll get to that. Yeah, we'll get to that eventually. [01:14:01] Speaker B: But this opening scene with Bilbo and Frodo, I also didn't necessarily mind incorporating Frodo, but I did think that this scene dragged a. [01:14:11] Speaker A: A little bit. [01:14:12] Speaker B: I thought it was like, it was a little too long, and it was a little too winky. [01:14:16] Speaker A: I would agree with that. There's a little bit too much of the. Like. And now I'm going to go sit under a tree, and literally at the end of this is like, I'm going to go surprise Gandalf as he gets here. I'm going to go sit under the tree. Where. Remember where you saw me at the beginning of the first lord of the Rings movie? That's where I'm going right now. It's a little too wink, wink, nudge. Now. Nudge. [01:14:39] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think if that scene with the two of them had been, like half the length it was and not as wink, wink as a reference y to. Yeah, I think it would have been fine. [01:14:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Like I said, I liked it initially. It was just towards the end, I was like, okay, we get it. We get that we're right before the fellowship of the ring. [01:14:58] Speaker B: I understand. [01:14:58] Speaker A: We get it. [01:14:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Another thing that I felt like we did not need because, like, I understand was then when we pop back and we're with young bilbo we get the 60 years earlier, like, little text on the screen. Sure. But I don't feel like we needed it. [01:15:18] Speaker A: I don't think we needed it, but I think it's relatively helpful. Specifically, obviously, we know it's earlier, but, like, a very specific, like, how much earlier this is, I think is fine. Like, I think it helps kind of place the story, like, when it is for us as an audience. Again, obviously we know it's earlier. It's just. And I don't know how necessary knowing it's exactly 60 years earlier is. But it's. I don't know. [01:15:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:15:40] Speaker A: Your point, Stan? [01:15:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess it just felt so, like, immediately coming off of the previous scene, it felt a little redundant to me. [01:15:52] Speaker A: Yeah, that's fair. I did like the little callback in Bag End where Gandalf bangs his head into the chandelier in the 48 because he does that same thing in the Lord of the Rings. Those are the kind of little fun nods where it's, like, not. [01:16:04] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the kind of nod to Lord of the Rings that I enjoy. [01:16:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I enjoyed that. I did. Like, there's a thing mentioned once all the dwarves show up and they're discussing stuff. It's mentioned that Thorin tried to recruit other dwarves to come help and, like, nobody else was interested in helping. [01:16:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think that's. I don't think that was. Spoilers. We have not quite finished the book. [01:16:28] Speaker A: No. [01:16:28] Speaker B: So I guess it could be. [01:16:30] Speaker A: Could be mentioned later but it's not mentioned here in the beginning. [01:16:33] Speaker B: But I did think that that was really interesting and a good addition because we know that there are other dwarf kingdoms. [01:16:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He tried to recruit them and they're all like, no, that's your problem. We're not interested in helping with it. [01:16:47] Speaker B: Another little moment in this opening scene in Bag End that I really liked was some of the dwarves are like, well, you're a wizard. You've killed dragons, you've killed dragons. How many dragons have you killed? And Gandalf's just like, uh, hmm. I thought that was fun. I did not understand why they all started yelling at each other right after that. I felt like I missed something. [01:17:11] Speaker A: I think the idea is just that they were under the impression that like, oh, we got a pro dragon slayer, we'll be fine. And then when they realize, oh, this guy, they're like, what the fuck are we doing? [01:17:21] Speaker B: Fair enough. [01:17:22] Speaker A: They just kind of start arguing, I think is the idea. But I also liked along those lines, I really liked this line where I think Balin or somebody says, we number 13, but not 13 of the best or brightest. Kind of solidifying the idea that this isn't like an elite band of, like, warriors. [01:17:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:17:40] Speaker A: And they say there's another line later about this, about like, how only some of them are kind of like accomplished warriors, but they're kind of just like a ragtag group of dwarves that agreed to do this. [01:17:50] Speaker B: They're just some dudes. [01:17:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, some of them are good. Like, obviously thorin's a very good warrior. Balin has a history. He's old, but he's, you know, he was a warrior back in the day. And some of the other ones, but like, other guys are just like, well. [01:18:02] Speaker B: They can all, they can all hand themselves. They can all handle themselves. They can all fight to some extent. [01:18:07] Speaker A: But they're not all seasoned warriors. Like, they're not all Gimli or whatever. I also like this line, this setup, which I don't remember this from, again, at least not the early part of the book, Thorne mentions that Smaug hasn't been seen for 60 years. And he's like, points out basically that, look, other people, if we are seeing the signs that. That now's a good time to return to the mountain, we probably aren't the only people seeing that. We may have to fight people or other people may be returning to the or may go try to claim Erebor. So we got to get there quick. And that sort of thing, pointing out that other people could make a play for Erebor, which kind of sets up, obviously, the battle of the five armies later, which I liked. I liked that little kind of tease that there could be conflict in the future over this and that it's not just like the only issue isn't them getting there. There could be other people trying to get there, which I don't. Again, I don't remember anything like that in the book. I really like this line between Gandalf and Bilbo where as Bilbo is trying to decide if he wants to come or not. And he says to Gandalf, can you promise that I will come back? And Gandalf says, no. And if you do, you will not be the same. Don't think that lines in the book anywhere. We tried to find it and could not. So I thought that was a good line. I also really like the discussion between Balin and Thorinhorn that they have, like, in the entryway by themselves where Balin's like, you don't have to do this. Like, why are we doing this? He's like, look, you. Obviously, we got forced out of the. Out of Erebor, but you've created a good life for us in the Blue Mountains. We have everything we need. Things are fine. We don't have to go do this. But Thorin's like, no, it's my duty. I have to do this. It's my fate. Whatever. Kind of. Again, just, I think it's a good character moment of who Thorin is. [01:19:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Really setting him up as the duty and honor guy. [01:19:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, who feels duty bound by his bloodline and all that sort of stuff to fulfill this terrible purpose. You know, that. To cite our dune episode. And so I really like that, especially for the kind of subtle tweaking they do to Thorin's character by, in my opinion, giving him more character in the movie. And so, yeah, I liked that a lot. And I also liked the idea that just getting a little bit of backstory of, like, oh, they do have their own life. You know, they're like, what have they been up to? Oh, well, they went and they created this life in the Blue Mountains and sort of thing we'll say that kind of runs contrary to now that I think about it, to Bilbo's line later about them not having a home. But whatever. It's a little bit. Who cares? I still like it. It's fine. [01:20:38] Speaker B: The Misty Mountain song is from the book. [01:20:42] Speaker A: Yes. [01:20:42] Speaker B: But I did include it here because I think the movie's version of it. [01:20:45] Speaker A: Objectively slaps every version of a song is gonna be better in the movie, in my opinion, because we all know my feelings on reading songs. I fucking hate it. And, yes, it's a great song. I also had this in better in the movie. The lyrics, like you said, straight from the book. But it's actually fun hearing it because I actually like that they use the music in this one. There's almost none in the Lord of the Rings series. I think there's, like, a couple deleted scenes where like Aragorn sings or something, maybe. I don't know if any of the. In the theatrical cuts. I don't know if there's any, like, songs in the Lord. There might be. Oh, well, they're probably the Green Dragon song, but even that might be a cutscene. I don't know. There may not be any music in the Lord of the Rings movies again, it's been since we did it on this podcast that we watched. [01:21:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:21:27] Speaker A: So anyways, point being, I liked seeing some music in the movies because it is such a big part of all of the Lord of the Rings books. Plus, like you said, great song. Absolutely great. And I also liked that they just make it this kind of deep, dark, moody, like, vocal arrangement. [01:21:44] Speaker B: Moody. [01:21:44] Speaker A: Because in the book it's specifically mentioned when they play this song that they all pull out, like instruments and there's like clarinets and drums and fiddles and a harp. Thorin plays a harp. And I'm like, that would be. [01:21:57] Speaker B: I would have loved to see super serious Richard Armitage Thorin playing a little harp. I would have enjoyed that. [01:22:05] Speaker A: It's just, again, I think they could have made it work, especially for some of the other songs. But in particular, that song, I think. [01:22:12] Speaker B: Works really well as I like that it's a vocal arrangement and it does give. It's very folklorish feeling because of that. [01:22:23] Speaker A: And they knew they had a banger cause they used it. The trailer is just that. The first trailer was just like them singing that song. They knew. This is the good stuff. [01:22:32] Speaker B: Real quick. One thing that I noticed as I was reading this song in the book, a random lyric on silver necklaces, they strung the flowering stars. And I noticed that. And I was like, that sounds like the even star. [01:22:49] Speaker A: Oh, that was luckless. [01:22:51] Speaker B: And I know that was like a movie invention. That's not in the books. [01:22:55] Speaker A: It's at least not in the main text of the books. I thought we discussed that it may have been like an appendices. [01:23:00] Speaker B: Well, she gives him like a brooch in the book. [01:23:04] Speaker A: I can't remember. [01:23:04] Speaker B: So, yeah, I looked this up. I went and fact checked myself. But like the necklace and everything, that is like a movie invention. But I read that lyric and I was like, I don't know, maybe Peter Jackson got the idea for that. Like the look of it. Or somebody. [01:23:21] Speaker A: Somebody, yeah. Very well could have been. It wouldn't surprise me because they very clearly scoured all. [01:23:25] Speaker B: Yeah, silver necklace, flowering stars. To me, that sounds exactly like the even star. [01:23:31] Speaker A: One thing that you pretty much can't say about the Hobbit movies and the Lord of the Rings movies is that they very rarely just invent stuff like out of whole cloth. There's usually something that they're referencing from somewhere in the books even if it's a tweak on the reference or whatever. [01:23:48] Speaker B: I really liked that. In the movie, Bilbo makes up his own mind to catch up with the dwarves and join them because I felt like in the book, Gandalf kind of pushes him out the door. [01:23:59] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. [01:23:59] Speaker B: After he wakes up. [01:24:00] Speaker A: No, I had the exact same note. I really liked specifically first when Bilbo wakes up which is similar in the book where he wakes up and the house is empty and everybody's gone and he kind of has this moment of relief but also you can tell he's kind of disappointed. And I thought the movie captured that perfectly. But then going a step beyond that. I really love that instead of Gandalf showing up and being like, you're late, you gotta go. And Bilbo just kind of being like, okay. I guess he just kind of lets Gandalf shove him out the door. Like you said, I like having him kind of make the decision, I want to go on this adventure. I want to do it. And then the shot of him running after them with the contract flailing in the wind behind them is fun. I also really liked this, and I double checked, I didn't remember this in the book of them having taken bets on whether or not Bilbo would show up. And in specific that Gandalf bet because he's like, well, how did you bet? And then somebody throws Gandalf a big bag of money. So Gandalf believed in him. I liked that. I thought that was a fun little moment. [01:25:03] Speaker B: A line that I really enjoyed. That the movie added was really good. When Bilbo. He asks Gandalf if there are any other wizards. And we discussed this a little bit in the prequel episode because he said the two blues and he can't say. [01:25:19] Speaker A: Them because they don't own rights to the names. But he can say the blue. [01:25:23] Speaker B: Yeah. So he says, like, I can't remember their names. But he also mentions Radegast the Brown. And Bilbo says, is he a great wizard or is he more like you? [01:25:36] Speaker A: Yes. We both burst out laughing. That is a great line. Absolutely fantastic. And also very in line with the humor of the book. [01:25:44] Speaker B: I feel like. [01:25:44] Speaker A: Yeah, like that's very much the kind of. Because there are some jokes throughout this movie that are not. And one in particular that I didn't mention that I could have put in better in the book because I did not think it worked. Is when Gandalf kills the great goblin. That felt completely flat for me and felt just really dumb in the movie where he. The goblin's like, and what are you going to do to stop me? Or something like that. And Gandalf slices him with the sword and he goes, that'll work. And, like, falls over dead. Or that'll do it. And, like, falls over dead. I don't know. That felt like Marvel humor. Like kind of. And it just didn't. Whereas this something about it. I don't know, it just feels more in line with the. The kind of humor we get in the book. [01:26:29] Speaker B: Speaking of Radagast, I also liked Radagast. I. Little weirdo. I liked him. I like his rabbit sledge. [01:26:38] Speaker A: Yeah. No, I also liked adding Radagast, particularly because he is in the Lord of the Rings books, but does not make an appearance in those movies. Movies. So I like incorporating them here. And I thought they did it pretty well. Again, I'm not sure I particularly care for, like, the CGI animal Doctor stuff. Felt a little. It's one of those things where I think would have worked better had they. Had it all been like puppets and stuff. Or, you know, like practical effects. I think would just like the CGI little hedgehogs. I don't know. Some of that stuff I didn't love. Again, some of the execution, which is my note for all of this, is I think this movie is full of great ideas with mediocre execution. [01:27:15] Speaker B: Yes. [01:27:16] Speaker A: Like, for the most part. But I did really enjoy seeing a wizard other than Gandalf and Saruman especially. And again, I also really like the little wacky rabbit sled thing, which I don't know if that's from. Cause I don't remember. In the Lord of the Rings. [01:27:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it is. [01:27:29] Speaker A: I think it is. But I could be wrong about that. Also played by Sylvester McCoy, the 7th Doctor. Yeah, that actor was the Doctor once. [01:27:39] Speaker B: I've never watched any of the original ones. Doctor who. [01:27:44] Speaker A: So once they. Getting back to the troll scene again. Now, I really like in the movie that they have. The reason they discover the trolls is that some of the ponies have gone missing. And Bilbo and Keely and feely, I think, are kind of trying to figure out where they went. And they see a fire in the distance. So they go to investigate. And that's where the trolls are. And the trolls have stolen the horses to eat them. And so I really like Bilbo. They're like, well, we got to get the trolls back. And we don't want to tell Thorin because he'll be mad that we let the ponies get stolen or whatever. So they kind of trying to sort it out themselves. And Bilbo creeps in and they're like, you're the thief. You're small. They won't even notice you go, you can do it. And so he sneaks in. And I like that his motivation for this is trying to free the ponies so they can get the ponies back. Because in the book, he sort of just like, they stumble across the trolls and they send Bilbo in to investigate. And then while he's there, he's just like, I guess I'll steal. [01:28:38] Speaker B: I think I'll try burgling. [01:28:40] Speaker A: Yeah. He just kind of decides, I'm a burglar. I guess I should try to steal something. And it's like, gonna take something out of their. [01:28:44] Speaker B: Yeah, he's gonna. Whatever, pocket. [01:28:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And so I like having it, like, be this thing where, oh, they took the ponies. We're gonna try to get the ponies back. I think that's a really good. [01:28:52] Speaker B: In particular, they have the Bilbo's pony. [01:28:55] Speaker A: Yes. [01:28:55] Speaker B: As well, which we have seen. We have seen his bond with his pony. [01:29:00] Speaker A: Again, I thought that was a very good, smart decisions. [01:29:03] Speaker B: Also, I'm just going to tack this on here because I think it makes as most sense as anything. But I like that the movies didn't kill any of the ponies. This is true, at least not in narrative, because we talked about some of the issues they had with animal safety on the set. But at least in the narrative, none of the ponies die. They run away at some point. [01:29:25] Speaker A: Yeah. They're like, oh, the pony bolted. [01:29:26] Speaker B: The ponies bolted. But from there on out, we're pony less. And the book kills two or three. [01:29:34] Speaker A: Rounds of ponies to keep getting ponies. [01:29:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:29:37] Speaker A: Losing them. Yeah. [01:29:40] Speaker B: I also like in this scene that it's Bilbo who stalls the trolls. [01:29:44] Speaker A: Completely agree. [01:29:45] Speaker B: Because it's Gandalf who does it in the book. [01:29:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Gandalf, who has been gone this whole time, shows up and is like, from the trees, throwing his voice and confusing the trolls by pretending to be one of them, essentially, and getting them to argue with each other. And so, yeah, I also. [01:30:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's a really nice character moment for Bilbo. And we're kind of showing that he is very clever and he can be useful. [01:30:09] Speaker A: And it's also a good comedy beat because this is already a funny scene even in the book. It's like a comical scene. And so having it be like, he's talking about how to cook them and, oh, you should skin them first. And they're like, no, what are you talking about? And then I love the line. It cracks me up every time. Forgot about this line. But when he. And he's like, well, you don't want to eat that one. He's got worms in his tubes because he's just trying to come up with anything and he can't. And then they're all like, we don't have parasites. And then they realize what he's doing and they're like, oh, no, I'm full of parasites. I'm nothing but parasites. Again, I liked all that a lot. I thought that was fun. And I also like in the book, the sun just rises and hits them and they. They turn to stone. I actually like the movie change of since we gave Frodo or Bilbo the moment of stalling them. We give Gandalf still a moment where he shows up and he splits this big rock that is blocking the sun. Cause it's like there's this big cliff kind of rock thing that is keeping the sun from hitting them. And he slams his staff on it and it splits in two and falls over. And then the sun is able to hit the. And I thought that was a cool, like, dramatic moment to reveal the sun. And also makes it very sudden because otherwise you have to show this like slow creeping. Like, just visually, like, it works fine describing it in the book, but like, visually in a film, that moment of like when they get hit by the sun and turn to stone. If that's like a slow gradual sunrise, it's hard to make that like super thrilling, I guess. [01:31:43] Speaker B: I don't know. [01:31:43] Speaker A: I just think that's a very smart way to do it in the movie of having him hit that rock and split it, which allows the sun to hit them. [01:31:49] Speaker B: Yeah, the movie adds like a chase scene as they're going to Rivendell. There's like, azog's not there, but it's some orcs, generals or whatever. And Radagast is also there and he's like drawing them away. And I understand. And I don't mind adding an action beat there again. It made me feel a little motion sick, though. [01:32:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I honestly had this. This is kind of one of those ones that's like a mixed. I think I probably had this in better in the book because it doesn't include this. Because it's another one of those moments where the chase with Radegast and the wargs and him riding around on sled is very fun in theory, but again, pretty mediocre in execution, in my opinion. One, it's. Yeah, it is kind of nauseating a little bit at the times. But also I just thought the way it's staged and executed makes very little sense because the whole idea is that Radagast is going to lead the wargs a different direction so that our band of dwarves and Gandalf and them can run away the other way. He's going to lead the wargs away from them. But then over the course of the chase, seemingly our band of dwarves are running. Like with Radagast. [01:33:16] Speaker B: I didn't understand where anyone was trying to go. [01:33:18] Speaker A: Where is anybody trying to go? Why is so long, like, even towards the end of this scene, Radagast is still, like, right next to them. Isn't the whole point that he's on this very fast thing and could lead them running way in the other direction? Why would. How. One, how would our people be even keeping up with him in any way? They're on foot. Two, why would they even be near each other? Like, he would go one direction and they would go the other direction. But somehow they're, like, watching him across the field. It just doesn't make any sense to me. And it's one of those moments that feels like it's a fun idea. But then we didn't really figure out how we were going to execute it. So kind of made it up as we went. Which, again, we've talked about is a thing that Peter Jackson has fully admitted happened in these movies quite a bit. And so it just doesn't make any sense to me. Again, good idea. Poorly executed. I really like giving Thorin, in my opinion, some additional character in the book. At least so far. He's not a particularly interesting or fleshed out character. [01:34:17] Speaker B: He's just kind of there. [01:34:18] Speaker A: He's just kind of the leader of the group. [01:34:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:34:20] Speaker A: And so we've talked about, like, the setting up the duty bound stuff earlier and, like, him wanting to take back the mountain because, you know. And obviously that's there in the book. But we don't really explore it very much. Whereas in the movie we get a little more exploration of it. I also like making him an elf racist because it gives him a character arc. Like, it gives him a good arc. It's. I mean, it's an arc we seen specifically with Gimli before. Like, it's literally the exact same arc. But that being said, it's at least something that is interesting and gives him, you know, some character, some room to grow as a person and become, you know, gives him somewhere to go. As opposed to just being, like, the stoic leader, which is kind of what he is in the book. [01:35:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:35:03] Speaker A: I actually also don't mind when we get up into the mountains in the film and they sleep in the cave after the whole stone giant thing in the film, Bilbo decides he's gonna leave because partially, mainly because Thorin has just yelled at him and been like, you don't belong here. Blah, blah, blah. And Bilbo's like, you're right. I'm getting the fuck out of here. And he goes to leave. And I like the little. He has a little heart to heart with Bofor, I believe it is. And they have a discussion about, like, you know, he's like, I don't belong here. You guys don't have a home. Sorry. You know, but you don't have a home. I do. I got a hobbit hole. It's real comfy. I'm just gonna go back there, blah, blah, blah. And that all kind of gets upended by the trap happening or whatever. But I like setting up the fact that he was, like, literally going to leave so that when we get to the end of this movie and he has the chance with the ring to just leave, we know he's already considered it. And so we, you know, as a moviegoer, if you didn't have any idea where the story was going, you don't know. Like, he could very well just leave in that moment. And so I really like that little moment of having him consider leaving there to set up again, the end and then having him choose to stay again, similar to having him choose to go on the adventure as opposed to Gandalf kind of forcing him out. [01:36:20] Speaker B: More agency for Bilbo. [01:36:21] Speaker A: A little more agency for Bilbo. [01:36:25] Speaker B: I don't think this happened in the book. [01:36:27] Speaker A: I don't think. [01:36:28] Speaker B: I don't remember this happening in the book. But when they're in the cave and then the goblins take them, we see sting glow. [01:36:38] Speaker A: Yes. Because as he's leaving, he's like, all right, I'm gonna leave. And then bofors like, what's going on there? And he looks down and he pulls sting out, and it's glowing blue. And they're like, oh, shit. [01:36:48] Speaker B: Yeah. I thought that was a good addition. [01:36:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I also like the weird sand trap thing that they have there in the book. There's apparently just like a door kind of, they say, like a crack in the wall but some sort of door opens in the back of the cave and the goblins come out and just, like, take them captive and drag them down into the caves. In the movie, the, like, floor, like, splits open and it's like sand and they all fall through. And I thought that was kind of cool because the book does mention that the goblins are, like, good at building specific kinds of things. Like, they're very inventive in their own way and that kind of weird I trap thing feels like something they could make or would, you know, would make. And it makes for a fun kind of way for them to get captured that's less awkward than just a bunch of goblins coming out and, like, grabbing them while they're sleeping. I don't know. It's just more fun. I liked that. [01:37:41] Speaker B: Another thing that I really liked, after Bilbo falls down and he's with Gollum and Gollum has, like, dragged the goblin away and we see Gollum, like, pick up a rock. Rock and kill this goblin and then sting, like, blinks out and stops glowing. I really like that. [01:37:58] Speaker A: I thought that was a really good addition too, because, yeah, you're like, well, obviously it's got to go off on and off somehow. And in this case, it's also a really good beat too because one, it's like, oh, that's how it works. If the goblins alive. [01:38:10] Speaker B: Great explanation. [01:38:11] Speaker A: Great explanation of how that works. But also it lets you know, Golem, not a goblin. [01:38:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:38:17] Speaker A: You know what I mean? That's another little subtle element of it is like, you now know and, and Bilbo know knows if because he knows what the blade does. Right. At that point, I think, yeah, Frodo or Gandalf has explained it to him at this point. So he knows. So it's also a little thing like, oh, well, that's not a goblin. What is, who is this guy? What's his little freak feel? [01:38:39] Speaker B: He is indeed a little freak. [01:38:41] Speaker A: Yeah. So this is the point in the film where our lost in adaptation drop comes from. And it is not exactly in the book. So I had to put this in better in the movie because, I mean, I have to, it's, you know, it's an element of our show. That being said, it kind of is in the book. It's just like in two different places and not exactly the same words. There's like one part where he says part of it, like, where Gollum asks, like, are you lost? Or whatever? And then there's another part later where he says the. The line you have here where he. [01:39:15] Speaker B: Says, I want to get unlost. [01:39:17] Speaker A: Yeah. But the exact specific line that is the part in our show is not in the book, so better in the movie. This is something I alluded to earlier. You talked about how in the book you liked some of the humanity of, or the Hobbit manity, the halfling manity, whatever you want to call it, of Smeagol Gollum in the book scene during the riddle game of some of his humanity kind of bleeding back in and that being really sad and stuff. A little detail that is not in the book that I really liked in the movie is that the riddle game ends up starting in the movie because he's mentioning games and he gets excited about the idea of playing a game and then decides he's gonna kill Bilbo. But then Bilbo's like, oh, actually, no, let's play a game. And he's like, all right, let's play a game. And in the book, I don't know. It doesn't play out that way. There's not this moment of Gollum getting excited about the prospect of playing a game because it reminds him of his past life or whatever. And I really liked that. I liked that. I don't know. The way that all started up in the film felt noticeably different than the book. And I really enjoyed it. I also really liked the line in that interaction where they're discussing what, where Bilbo's like, if I win, you got to show me how to get out of here. And Gollum says, and if I win, I eats the Hobbit whole. And the music cuts out and Bilbo just stares at him and is like, okay, it's very funny. [01:40:50] Speaker B: I love that we already talked at length about Bilbo not killing Gollum while he's invisible, but he jumps over him to get out of the cave, which does come from the book. But I thought it was funny that he, like, smacks him in the face. I don't know if he did that. [01:41:08] Speaker A: On purpose or not in the movie, but he does seem to kicks him in the head. [01:41:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:41:12] Speaker A: Whether it's on purpose or not, it's very funny. So after he gets out, he sees all of the dwarves and Gandalf escape down the mountainside and Bilbo sees them escaping and then comes and finds them very similar to the book. And decides to surprise them by coming around the corner and being like, haha, I'm alive to impress them. But after he does that in the movie, they're like, well, why did you come back? Or what? Like, you know, that sort of thing. And he gives this speech in the film that I actually really liked that it's not in the book at all. And it's really not like his motivation for like why he's helping them doesn't really ever get addressed, at least so far in the book. [01:41:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:41:48] Speaker A: And I like, I thought the speech was really sweet about how he has this home that he loves with all these people that he loves and blah, blah, blah, but that the dwarves don't. And again, maybe muddled by the fact that they seemingly had created their own home in the blue Mountains, but whatever, whatever, whatever, their home has been stolen. They're, you know, they've been kicked out of their home by hobbits. [01:42:06] Speaker B: Understand the value of a home. [01:42:07] Speaker A: Yes. And so he gives this very. And I thought, Morton, Martin Short just delivers it perfectly. Like pitch perfectly. And throughout the whole, all the performances are great. But in particular, I think Martin short does a very good young bilbo. Martin Short. [01:42:21] Speaker B: I was really questioning myself. I was like, do I not know who this actor is? [01:42:25] Speaker A: Martin Freeman. Martin Short playing Bilbo would be hilarious. Hilarious, though. I think I only wrote martin short because hobbits are short and his name is Martin Freeman. And so my brain just went, Martin Short. Martin Short, in case you're blanking on who that is, is most notably for us, would be one of the main characters in only murders in the building. Not Steve Martin, the other guy who only eats dips. That's Martin Short, that actor. And yeah, he's a comedian as well. But he actually, he would be. He would have, back in the day, he could have done a bill. [01:43:03] Speaker B: He's not a bill, though. Yeah, but yes, sorry, Martin, you really had me questioning reality there for a minute. I was like, do I not remember the name of the person? Cause I said Martin Freeman earlier and I was like, oh no, did I get it wrong? [01:43:17] Speaker A: No. Literally, I think my brain just went hobbit short. Martin Short. I don't. I have no idea. Anyways, yes, Martin Freeman. I think he does. Great. [01:43:27] Speaker B: So we've been over my feelings and your feelings about Azog, but as long as we're doing that, I liked that we have Bilbo jump in to save Thorin in the last battle. [01:43:42] Speaker A: I wasn't sure how I was gonna feel about that, but I did like it. Again, there's not really any battle in the book. There's not really any sort of. [01:43:49] Speaker B: No. [01:43:49] Speaker A: The goblins show up but then they just get rescued out of the tree, by the way. [01:43:52] Speaker B: Yeah. They tree them and then they get rescued. [01:43:54] Speaker A: There's not like a fight or anything like that. I really love the whole showdown with Azog. I think it's super. The shot of Thorin coming out of that tree with, with the flames everywhere and it's just fucking cool. Like whatever I get. People would have issues with Azog and stuff and whatever. I just think it's really cool. That being said, I don't love everything about this. Him just getting immediately wrecked was kind of like. But it works for his character because again, and it's, it's, he's brash. Brash. And he thinks he's looking at him. [01:44:22] Speaker B: Yeah. He doesn't think things through. [01:44:23] Speaker A: Yeah. And he just kind of goes to challenge him and immediately gets wrecked. I don't think that doesn't not work. But a couple things. One, I thought there was a really funny editing moment in this scene where when Bilbo does come save him he comes flying in as the, that one other orc general guy is about to like cut his head off and he like slams into that guy and then like stabs him. And Bilbo kills that other orc. But we see the cut is we see Bilbo and at this point Thorin is laying on the ground mortally injured. [01:44:52] Speaker B: Like actively dying. [01:44:53] Speaker A: Actively dying. The warg has like bitten him and thrown him across the, we heard bones crack. Yeah. And so he's like bleeding out and like dying or whatever and he's laying there on the ground like right next to Bilbo. And we see Bilbo fighting this orc and he like plunges his sword into him. And right after he plunges his sword into him we cut to Thorin and his eyes, eyes like blink shut like he's dying. And then it cuts back to Bilbo like jumping off and pulling his sword out. And the edit makes it feel like Bilbo just stabbed Thor in the chest and killed him. Obviously that's not what's going on and you can tell what's going on. But I just thought that edit was. [01:45:32] Speaker B: Very funny because it was very odd. [01:45:35] Speaker A: They should not have put the shot, it would have been fine if they had just not put the shot of Thorin's eyes shutting right where they did. They should have just moved that somewhere, somewhere else. Anyways, I thought that was very funny. The only thing or the other thing I don't like is I. I like having Thorin loot or lose that fight and be injured. [01:45:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:45:53] Speaker A: I don't really love him seemingly dying. [01:45:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, it was hard to tell, yeah. If he was like, definitely dead or just like very injured or very close to death. [01:46:04] Speaker A: But then we have him like kind of resurrected mere moments later by Gandalf. So there's not even that much of. If they had taken it the next movie, like, maybe that would have been something. But they just kind of immediately have Gandalf be like, mutter some words over him and he's fine. And I think it would have been totally fine to just have him get injured and need Bilbo's help. And Bilbo saves him, but he's not like mortally injured. He's just kind of severely injured. And then it's like nursing a wound for a little bit at the beginning of the next movie or something. That would have been totally fine. Another example to me of like a good idea of mid execution. Because I just, it's like, why kill it? Like, why seemingly kill him? Like, is it, are we doing a Jesus thing here? Like, like truly, like, is that what we're going for? Like, I don't know. Because it. I just don't understand the point of having him be so grievously injured only to immediately have him be seemingly fine. Because, like, at the end of the movie, he stands up and he's like, walking and he seems fine. [01:47:00] Speaker B: You know, I'm now constructing Jesus parallel in my mind. He does have disciples there, almost twelve. [01:47:11] Speaker A: I know. I do think that's what we're doing. I just think it's like. Why? I agree, because, like, it doesn't really matter. I don't know. I just think it's a dumb illusion if that's what we're doing. Like, if we're alluding to, like, the Jesus. I just don't think it really necessarily. [01:47:26] Speaker B: Yeah, it doesn't really serve any kind of purpose. [01:47:29] Speaker A: Any purpose, you know, I don't know. He ends up being the savior of his people or whatever. And like, I think. I think that is probably what we're going for, if I had to guess. I just don't care for that as an allegory. And I also think it is kind of cheapened by having him literally again, if you want. If you're gonna do that, at least commit to it a little longer. Like, have the movie end with. [01:47:50] Speaker B: Commit to three days, damn it, have. [01:47:52] Speaker A: The movie end with us being unsure. [01:47:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:47:54] Speaker A: Is Thorin gonna survive? Like, they see that, you know? I don't know. I just either don't do it or commit to it. And I. What they did, I think, was like the worst version. Version. But. But I did. I will say this. I did like having Thorin renounce his. You know, how he's. He's been very judgmental of Bilbo. I think having him, after they get to the mountaintop and he's. He's been healed or whatever. And again, this would have been fine. You could do the exact same thing if he'd never, like, seemingly died if he had just been grievously injured or whatever, had like a broken arm or whatever. Having him come and go to Bilbo and be like, look, I was wrong about you. I think that's a great. I think it's an actual conclusion to this movie's kind of narrative arc and character arcs. I think it makes a lot of sense. It gives us a satisfying ending for this movie. So I like that a lot. I like this little line that does not show in the book, show up in the book where they're staring at the lonely Mountain in the distance and they're talking about how tough things have been. And Bilbo says, you're right. I do believe the worst is behind us, which is a fun little foreshadow of what's to come. And then the movie ends on, I think, a fun tease for the sequels by setting up and giving us a little glimpse of smaug by having the. We see the thrash, the thresh. Whatever that bird is. Thresh. Thresh. Thresh. Thresh. [01:49:09] Speaker B: I think it was a thresh. Yeah. [01:49:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Banging the snail against the thing and echoing through the halls. And then we come inside and see Smaug. That being said, it looks a little. [01:49:19] Speaker B: The piles of gold are like so painfully CGI. Like they remind me of the super early computer animation parts of the Cave of Wonderland in 1990. Two's Aladdin. [01:49:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:49:33] Speaker B: Like, where it suddenly looks like a video game. [01:49:35] Speaker A: Yes. I would agree with that. It's not the best. Like the, like Smaug himself looks fine like the eye and the dragon, but, yeah, the gold looks. The gold looks not amazing. And so. Yeah. But again, I like the idea of it. It just maybe could have used a little more time in the. In the oven for the. For the cg. But it's all good. All right. That was all the stuff we thought was better in the movie we're gonna talk about now. All the stuff that the movie nailed, as I expected, practically perfect in every way. I like the. We open up on. Or they nail the opening line between Bilbo and Gandalf where Gandalf shows up and says. Bilbo says to him, good morning. And Gandalf says, do you wish me a good morning? Or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not or that you feel good this morning. Or that it is a morning to be good on. Which is the exact line out of the book. And it's fun. And the enjoyable kind of comedy that the book has a lot of. [01:50:35] Speaker B: There are a lot of lines, particularly in the opening bit of the movie that demonstrate from when Gandalf says he's looking for somebody to share in an adventure. And Bilbo replies, I don't like adventures. Nasty, disturbing, uncomfortable thing. Makes you late for dinner. [01:50:55] Speaker A: I don't know when anybody sees in them. Yeah, it's great. I love it. [01:50:59] Speaker B: And then Gandalf's line as well. I am Gandalf. And Gandalf means me. [01:51:03] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, I like that. We see him scratch the little rune on the door to let the dwarves know where the meeting spot is so they're able to find it. [01:51:15] Speaker B: The jaunty dishes song as well. [01:51:18] Speaker A: They sing the song while they taunt Bilbo about how he hates them breaking their dishes. That's what Bilbo Baggins hates. [01:51:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:51:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:51:28] Speaker B: And then Gandalf has the secret key. [01:51:31] Speaker A: The key. The key that he got from Thrain. [01:51:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Gives it to Thorin. [01:51:35] Speaker A: I imagine we might get more of that in the. Because this movie mentions Thrain being going missing. [01:51:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:51:41] Speaker A: And in the book, Gandalf says that he found Thrain. He rescued Thrain from the Necromancer. [01:51:48] Speaker B: Yeah. From the dungeons of the Necromancer, which. [01:51:51] Speaker A: Is where the necromancer plot comes from. But he says that Thrain was like. His brain was cooked. [01:51:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:51:58] Speaker A: Done. So we'll see if that comes up later. [01:52:03] Speaker B: Another thing that I feel like the movie nailed is that Gandalf, super duper, believes in Bilbo and really wants him to go on this journey for reasons that both the audience and the other characters and Bilbo himself are unaware of. None of us understand the inner workings of Gandalf's mind in this moment. [01:52:25] Speaker A: Yeah. We're like, I guess, if you say so, man. Yeah. I like we see the contract of all the renumerations and funeral agreements and stuff. It's got all the little, like, subsections about all the different things that Bilbo is signing up for. They even expand on it a little bit in the movie where he's like, incinerations. And they're like, yeah. They're like going through all the different ways he could die. I like that the movie nails that. Gandalf mentions the fact that Bilbo used to be an adventurous young hobbit that he has took. And ancestors and the Tuks are notorious for being adventurers among the Hobbits. And we also get the anecdote that one of his ancestors, some took, killed a goblin way back in the day and knocked his head off. And it went down a hole. [01:53:11] Speaker B: It was big enough that he could ride a horse. [01:53:12] Speaker A: Yes. And he knocked a goblin's head off and it went down a hole. And that's how golf was invented. [01:53:17] Speaker B: Hobbits canonically invented golf. We mentioned earlier that they do keep Bilbo forgetting his handkerchief. And then specifically the lion Gandalf says, you will have to manage without pocket handkerchiefs and a great many other things. The trolls argue about eating mutton, mutton every night. It's so boring. [01:53:40] Speaker A: Nice little mutton less tomato with the muttons. Nice and thin. Yeah. I love that the trolls get the word hobbit wrong because Bilbo, when they ask what he is, he's like, I'm a hob. Or he says, I'm a burglar hobbit. In the middle of saying burglar, he stops and says, hobbit. And so they call him Burra Hobbitzhe. Yeah, in the book. And they say, I think they keep calling him different things in the movie. Like, they keep getting it wrong in different ways. But at 1.1 of them does say burglar Hobbit or something like that. Which again, I thought was funny. [01:54:11] Speaker B: There's a little exchange between Gandalf and Thorin, I believe that's out of the book where one of the points at which Gandalf has vanished from the party. And Thorin's like, well, why did you leave? And he says to look at head. And he said, well, what brought you back? Looking behind. [01:54:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:54:32] Speaker B: And then they do find the elf swords as well as some treasure which they bury in the troll cave. And they bury that treasure for later. [01:54:40] Speaker A: They do. [01:54:41] Speaker B: They got to save it. [01:54:42] Speaker A: Absolutely. And this is honestly because we see this in Lord of the Rings as well. But it is mentioned in this one, the bridge to Rivendell. Or that gets into Rivendell where the last homely house is a very narrow stone bridge that they say they can only walk over in single file. And that it has no railings or anything. And that is exactly the. What the bridge to Rivendell looks like again. We saw it in Lord of the Rings. And it's. So. It's the same in this one. But that does come from the book. [01:55:06] Speaker B: Moon runes. [01:55:07] Speaker A: Yep. [01:55:08] Speaker B: As well. [01:55:08] Speaker A: They call Moon letters in the book, but it's close enough. [01:55:11] Speaker B: I like Moon runes. [01:55:12] Speaker A: Moon runes? They do say runes as well, but he specifically says they're moon letters or whatever. Yeah. They also reveal the same thing about. [01:55:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Like the secret door and all. Both the book and the movie fat shame bomber stone giants are from the book. I did think that in the movie, they kind of looked like rock'em sock'em robots. [01:55:36] Speaker A: Again. It's fine. Like. Yeah, I don't know how else you would do it, necessarily. It looks pretty good. Like, the effects actually look pretty great. It's just like, the way they move does kind of. And, like, the design kind of looks like rock'em sock. [01:55:49] Speaker B: They look like I was imagining something more along the lines of. I can't think of something specific, but I don't know what it is exactly. Like, I can kind of see it in my head, but I'm not sure what it's from, but. Okay. Remember the snow monster from frozen? [01:56:09] Speaker A: No, I'm sorry. It's been so long since I've seen frozen. I do not. [01:56:13] Speaker B: I was picturing something more like that made out of stone again. [01:56:17] Speaker A: I think they look okay. Yeah, it's just. They are a little. That whole scene is, like, fine. [01:56:22] Speaker B: Fine. [01:56:23] Speaker A: Yeah, it's not. You know, it's fine. The whole part where they're, like, on the knees and they get split up and it's a little. It's whatever. It's. I don't think it was necessary. I think we could have just watched them. It feels a little action scene for action scene sake. [01:56:35] Speaker B: Yeah. And that is like, you know, kind of another overarching issue that goes hand in hand with, like, the messiness of the action scenes in this movie is that I do feel like this movie is kind of doing the most, but it does not possess the. I don't want to say skill, but. [01:56:57] Speaker A: Yeah, well, they just didn't have the. [01:56:58] Speaker B: Time to make it all work. It doesn't possess what it needs to be able to do the most. Well, yeah. [01:57:07] Speaker A: Like I said, I like that scene overall. I don't think it's, like, terrible or anything. And it's. It's not nearly as, like. I don't know it's. It's just fine is, I guess, the best explanation for it. Whereas I think it also would have been totally fine for that scene to not be like this, like action scene where they get split up and they got. It could have just been they see the stone giants, which is what it is in the book. They just see them like throwing rocks. [01:57:29] Speaker B: And then they get to a cave. [01:57:31] Speaker A: That would have been fine. We didn't need like this little mini action set piece there. I still think it was necessary, but it's fine. [01:57:38] Speaker B: The line caves in the mountains are seldom unoccupied comes from the book as well as. I love this little line from Gollum. Bless us and splash us, precious. I can't do a Gollum boy, so I'm not even going to try. But I really like that line. [01:57:54] Speaker A: I also love that we see him paddling his little boat across the lake. Yeah. Which is mentioned in the book. [01:58:02] Speaker B: And I think all, or at least most of the riddles are from the book. [01:58:06] Speaker A: I believe all the riddles are from the book. I just don't think they use every single riddle that's in the book. I think there are more in the book from my memory. I think we see like four or five of them in the film and I think there's a few more than. [01:58:19] Speaker B: That in the book. [01:58:19] Speaker A: I would have to go back and double check, but I think there's at least one or two from the book that. That don't make it into the film, which is fine. [01:58:27] Speaker B: Yeah, that's fine. [01:58:29] Speaker A: I love how clumsy during the riddle scene where at the end Gollum is coming after him and is gonna attack him and Bilbo's trying to fend him off with the sword and just awkwardly swinging it around. Cause he has no idea how to use a sword. He's literally first time he's ever held a sword. And I thought that was fun. I thought they did a good job showcasing that. He has no idea what he's doing. I really liked that in one of the riddles, the teeth riddle. Cause he says there's 30 white horses on a hill is the beginning of the riddle or whatever. And after Gollum figures it out and says teeth. And he goes, but I only have six in the book. I think he says six, but in the movie he says nine or whatever, but it's the same fun line and it's great. He smiles and shows his nine teeth that he has. And as always, Andy Serkis just absolutely steals the show. [01:59:19] Speaker B: He just does such a great job with Gollum. [01:59:22] Speaker A: Ridiculous. It's absurd. I can't fathom anybody else doing Golem. And he's incredible. I liked that they kept the detail because I didn't remember this in the book. But I think it's a very important little detail. And I'm glad the book kept or the movie kept it. That when gala or when Bilbo does the what's in my pocket? Riddle, he doesn't do that as a riddle. [01:59:45] Speaker B: Yeah, not initially. [01:59:46] Speaker A: Not initially. He says it to himself. He sticks his hand in his pocket while he's trying to think of a riddle and because he forgot the ring was even there, feels the ring and goes, what have I got in my pocket? And he says it out loud. And Gollum hears that and is like, what? And he's like, yeah, oh, yeah, that's my riddle. Because, like, Bilbo knows that's not a real riddle and knows he's kind of cheating but just kind of goes with it because Gollum seems to, like, let him go with it. So he's like, okay, yeah, that's the riddle. And I like, they kept that detail because for some reason in my head, I thought it was literally that that was just like that. Bilbo came up with that as, like a trick. He's like, I'll ask him what's in? I don't know. But I like that it's like an innocent accident that ends up being the thing that allows him to win this, this riddle battle or whatever. Not that it ultimately really matters because Gollum's still going to kill him anyways and he has to escape with the ring. But I like it. [02:00:40] Speaker B: It's in a slightly different place. But we do get the scene where Bilbo is trying to, like, squeeze through the crack and all of his buttons pop off of his butt. [02:00:47] Speaker A: Yes. [02:00:49] Speaker B: I wish they would have done it while he was invisible. So the buttons come out of nowhere, but he's still pretty, pretty close to what's in the book. [02:00:57] Speaker A: Pretty much, yeah. Gandalf does show up to rescue the dwarves in Goblin town. He disappeared at the. It's slightly different in the movie in the sense that they haven't. He hasn't been with them since Rivendell in the film, whereas in the book he's been there the whole time. But when they get captured in the cave, he disappears and they don't know what happened to. To him. And then he shows up close enough, but he does show up at the last minute, come in and save them all and then slay the great goblin. [02:01:22] Speaker B: And then as they are going down the hill, as they're going down the hill after they escape from the goblins. And then we see the orcs are coming and Thorin says, out of the frying pan and into the fry pan, Gandalf says it. I believe Gandalf says it in the movie. [02:01:39] Speaker A: I think, yeah, I could be wrong. I thought it was Gandalf, but one of the two. [02:01:44] Speaker B: It doesn't matter. I have it in here because it's one of the title chapters in the. [02:01:48] Speaker A: Book, which they actually do quite a bit of. They mention the chapter names as, like, line. They use the chapter names as lines quite a bit in the movie. [02:01:56] Speaker B: Gandalf's fireballs when they're up in the trees. I love that the wizard uses fireball in this. It's so D and D coded. I love that. [02:02:06] Speaker A: I love the flaming pine cones. He lights pine cones on fire, which is exactly what he does in the book. The only thing that I understand why they didn't do it mainly for the big final showdown. But I still think they could have done it. But in the book, the pine cones that he lights on fire are not just regular fire. He has red and blue and green flames. I thought that would have been cool to be throwing different color fireball pine cones at him. But I think they just wanted. At the end, when the big battle. Just regular. They didn't want blue and green flames. Whatever. [02:02:39] Speaker B: My last note here is just a note about how much I love the eagles in these stories. I really love that Tolkien was like, I can have a little deus ex machina. Just a little as a treat. [02:02:53] Speaker A: Yes. [02:02:53] Speaker B: You know? [02:02:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I had the same note for nail that they show up to save the day. I think it's a fun climax. Plays out similarly, but I do. This is slightly better in the movie note for me. I do like that the movie has Gandalf call them like he gets a moth, like he does in the Lord of the Rings movie, which I think is not also similarly, like, not exactly how it plays out in the books from my memory. [02:03:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:03:15] Speaker A: But anyways, I like that callback to having him use a moth or whatever. But I. But even if that wasn't a callback, even if this was the first time we ever saw him do it, I like having him call for help from the eagles because in the book, it's revealed that the eagles are just. They live in the mountains nearby. [02:03:30] Speaker B: Yeah, the eagles live nearby and they. [02:03:31] Speaker A: Like, notice a commotion happening and they go to investigate and then end up saving them, but then it turns out that they know Gandalf, and Gandalf is, like, friends with the leader of the eagles or whatever. And so to me, it just makes sense to have, as opposed to it being, like, a coincidence. [02:03:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:03:47] Speaker A: Just having Gandalf, like, he knows where they are, he knows the eagles are nearby, and he knows because the book specifically mentions that he has helped them before, and so they owe him or whatever. And so him, like, calling in a favor makes perfect sense to me. And I think, especially in the movie, you don't have to then explain in the book, we can just read, oh, nearby that you like. It totally works. That the eagles are just living the area and the book. [02:04:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it fits tonally with the book as well. [02:04:16] Speaker A: I think that's fine, but I think it works. Makes more sense in the movie. It would be like a weird stretch. Audiences would be going, wait, the eagles just were there? Like, why did. They're just randomly there? You know what I mean? I don't think it's an issue with the book. I just think for the movie, having Gandalf call to them for help makes a lot of sense. [02:04:34] Speaker B: No, I agree. [02:04:35] Speaker A: All right. That was everything that we talked about that the movie nailed. We do have some stuff to discuss in lost, an adaptation. [02:04:43] Speaker B: Just show me the way to get out of here and I'll be on my way. Wow. Was a lost. [02:04:48] Speaker A: Yes, yes. And I want to get unlost as soon as possible. So this isn't really a normal lost in adaptation, which would normally be like, if we were confused about things, which I guess we're gonna get into a little bit, or sometimes we make it a discussing the themes thing, which we're not really gonna do here. [02:05:02] Speaker B: But, yeah, I kind of just. I was kind of pooling my thoughts on a specific topic in this section. [02:05:11] Speaker A: We had to include it so we could include the drop. So it had. We had to have a loss in attitude. [02:05:16] Speaker B: Yes, that's true. We have to include that in this series. So now we have touched on this already kind of throughout the. The idea that the movies have really good ideas. And my first note here that I had was that, so the book does mention the necromancer. So I think that is something that it makes sense to expand out into the larger story, at least on paper. Makes sense. [02:05:49] Speaker A: I had this embedded in the movie because, like you said, gandalf mentions it very explicitly, talks about, I mentioned earlier how rescued Thrain or tried to rescue Thrain from the Necromancer, and now he barely escaped himself himself. I also like that we, there's a little mention in the book, which isn't mentioned in the movie that Thorin wants to, like, get revenge on the Necromancer. And Gandalf's like, not, that's. That's not something we can do. That guy is way too strong. But. But I liked, I know there's more of it in the future movies. I don't remember how much or how that plays out. I may hate it later. [02:06:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm sure that that is something we're gonna come back to. [02:06:25] Speaker A: But so far, what we get of it in this movie, I liked the addition, the expansion of it. [02:06:32] Speaker B: But something that I was kind of struggling with throughout was that it makes sense on paper, again, to connect this whole thing to Lord of the Rings and to make all of those connections. And I don't think it even contradicts. [02:06:49] Speaker A: It doesn't seem like. I'm sure it probably does in some very specific ways or whatever. Yeah. [02:06:54] Speaker B: But to me, it just, like, feels a lot of the time. [02:06:57] Speaker A: So fanservice y. I don't disagree necessarily. But to me, it was fan service that worked, at least this time, because I actually think I had that thought about it the first time I watched these movies. Especially this first one. Like, the whole scene where the white council where Gandalf and Saruman and Galadriel and Elrond get together felt a little bit like, all right, this is what we're doing. It's getting back, like, the greatest hits and, like, putting them all in a room together to, like, like, I get that. That being said, I really liked it. I enjoyed that. Saruman, like, dresses Gandalf down for, like, helping the dwarves. And he kind of acts like a kid being caught by his teacher I thought was kind of fun. I liked that dynamic between them. And I liked this whole scene, I will say I'm not really exactly sure what. Why. I guess we'll find out more later. Why Saruman feels the need to, like, tell Gandalf that the dwarf, he can't help the dwarves and they can't go on their mission. I assume Saruman is, in some capacity, an alliance with Smaug for, I don't know. [02:08:05] Speaker B: Maybe we'll get more, I think. Yeah, I'm sure we'll get more in the upcoming films. I think there's an attempt to play with dramatic irony because theoretically, the viewer knows that Saruman ends up being a villain. But nobody else in this scene clearly knows. And I only call it an attempt because I can't imagine it would work if you aren't already familiar with Lord of the Rings. [02:08:30] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and it's also, I will say it does get a little confusing because I'm not exactly sure how much it works that the scene ends with Saruman being like, your quest's over, you guys can't. I'm putting a kibosh on this whole going and taking back Erebor thing. And then it's revealed that, like, Gandalf already sent the dwarves off because he knew that Saruman would stop. Why would he know that at this point, he should trust Saruman? Entirely true. Because he trusts Saruman still in the Lord of the Rings, which is 60 years later. Why would he have had suspicions about what now? I think you could argue that it's less about, like, he thinks Saruman is evil or anything, and more so that just he knows Saruman has a very stickler about intervening and stuff and might not just like him being involved in this or whatever. And so I think that kind of could work or whatever. Again, I get why people don't like this, and it does feel fan servicey. I think I've heard people say this is, like, their least favorite parts of the movies of, like, incorporating all this. To me, I. And again, I think I used to feel that way. And I don't think it's all executed perfectly, but I really enjoyed it this time. I liked exploring this stuff that we know was happening during the Hobbit story, right? Especially because we would just this, or at least to some extent, was happening because we know about the Necromancer stuff. We know some of that other stuff was going on. We know Gandalf just kind of disappear. It's like a running joke that Gandalf just, like, disappears for a while and then shows back up again in this and in Lord of the Rings. And so I liked this. And I thought the scenes mostly worked. I enjoyed it. Again, I understand why people wouldn't. I thought it worked fairly well. It's maybe not executed perfectly, but I enjoyed directly tying these films to the Lord of the Rings sequels, more concretely. Or sequels. The Lord of the Rings films, more concretely. I was a fan of it this time, which I don't think I was last time I watched these. [02:10:42] Speaker B: I don't know, maybe fan service isn't, like, quite the right word. [02:10:46] Speaker A: I think it is. [02:10:47] Speaker B: I mean, for me personally, as much as I love Lord of the Rings, and I do love Lord of the Rings, I just think it's a little bit of a crime that an adaptation of the Hobbit wasn't given a chance to stand on its own more. [02:11:03] Speaker A: I think that's fair. I do think an adaptation of the Hobbit that was not so deeply tied to the Lord of the Rings could have worked entirely. I think it would have been great. That being said, I don't mind at all the decision to tie it to it as much as it is, because it inherently is. Yes, even the book is inherently tied. Obviously, it came out before, and so it's tied to it in a different way. But, like, I don't know. I just. I think the stories are inherently tied together in both the book and in the movies and trying to, like, to explicitly, like, fight against the urge to, like, incorporate them. I think you're fighting a losing battle that you don't need to fight, in my opinion. [02:11:53] Speaker B: Well, I hear the. Okay, I don't. I don't mind all of it. I'm not, like, totally against every single inclusion of something from Lord of the Rings. [02:12:06] Speaker A: Right. [02:12:07] Speaker B: I just. I do think it's interesting how the separate histories of these two properties have affected and influenced each other, both as books and as movies. I just. I feel like there's a lot of times where it seems like the movie the Hobbit is kind of forced to be self referential. Like, when Bilbo finds the ring, we shouldn't know anything about it yet. Right? Like, we shouldn't know that it's special or interesting. But the truth is that we do. [02:12:44] Speaker A: Yes. [02:12:44] Speaker B: Because of. Because of Lord of the Rings. So then, therefore, the movie is duty bound to treat it like it is special because the movie knows that, the audience knows that. And I just don't think think that every single instance of that works. Like, in particular, like, the moment where the ring falls onto Bilbo's finger. Like, felt a lot to me. [02:13:11] Speaker A: It's very clearly a reference to. [02:13:13] Speaker B: Well, it's. I mean, it's obviously a reference to fellowship, but it also felt a lot like the filmmakers were sitting around going like, oh, let's do this again. Let's do this again. People love that. Like, there's a. Like, there's stuff that works and then there's other stuff that, to me, ends up feeling like an aging rock star playing the greatest hits because that's what everybody loves. [02:13:40] Speaker A: I don't even disagree with that. I think you're right, and I do think that's why a lot of people have issues with some of that stuff. And I don't even entirely disagree. I think there are moments of it. Like I said, I mentioned that in the beginning with some of the way they tie in the Frodo like, stuff to, like, some of that got a little heavy handed, and there are moments like that. The ring falling on his finger the same way. I didn't have a problem with. I like those kind of, like, visual parallels. And actually, initially, I had the same thought, just kind of narrowing down to the specific moment of the ring falling onto Bilbo's hand for the first time. Being a direct visual reference to the first time it falls on Frodo's hand in the Green Dragon or wherever they are, the hotel, the bar, or whatever. Like, right. [02:14:24] Speaker B: Prancing pony. [02:14:24] Speaker A: Prancing pony. That's right. Having that be a direct visual reference. Initially, I was like, that's not necessary. Like, why would we do that? Because, like, in the book, what happens is Bilbo's just, like, stumbling around and, like, his hand is in his pocket, and it, like, kind of slips into the ring, and he puts it on. Then I'm like, okay, well, how would you show that, like, what is described in the book? How would I show that in a movie in a way that's visually interesting at all? His hands going into his pocket and the ring slip, like, okay, so we got to come up with a way for him to get the ring on that feels accidental because it is accidental in the book, but also you can see and is visually interesting. Well, I got a pretty good idea of a way that could happen where the ring flies up in the air and he goes to catch it and it falls on his finger. Oh, well, we did exactly that in Lord of the Rings. Shh. Okay. You know, it's poetry. It rhymes. Like, sure. Like, that's a George Lucas quote about Star wars. Like, it's, I think, that kind of thing. Like, so, like, I worked through that, as in, I put my filmmaker hat on, and I worked through that process of, like, thinking about how I would adapt that scene from the book, and ultimately I landed on. Yeah, no, the thing they did in the movie is exactly what I would do. I would do the exact visual reference to. To the Lord of the Rings with the ring falling on his finger. That being said, I think there are moments to your point that it gets a little heavy handed, where it gets a little, like, overly referential and fanservice. Yeah. [02:15:53] Speaker B: And I'm sure this is a thing that we will come back to. [02:15:55] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. [02:15:56] Speaker B: As the series progresses, because I will agree with this. [02:15:58] Speaker A: Like, without we haven't gotten there yet. Maybe I'll feel differently when we do. But I don't think Gliglas has any point being in this series. Oh, yeah. [02:16:05] Speaker B: I don't think he has any business being here. [02:16:07] Speaker A: And so, like, that kind of thing. I am on board with being like, why the fuck is legolas in this? Maybe I'll change my mind. Who knows? Maybe I'll be like, no, I love Legolas being here. I don't know. But, like, stuff like that, I'm like, that makes no sense. But, like, certain things and, like, working the story and seeing, like, backstory about, like, oh, this is what Gandalf was doing. And he was, like, talking to Saruman and Galadriel about, like, investigating this necromancer, which the book mentions and we know is Sauron finding out more. I think that stuff's all cool and interesting. I don't think it's necessary, but I enjoyed it. [02:16:41] Speaker B: I'm not saying that it's not cool and interesting. And again, I'm not a purist. [02:16:46] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I know. I know. Yeah. [02:16:48] Speaker B: I'm not a purist in the sense of Tolkien and nor am I a purist in the sense of adaptations in. [02:16:54] Speaker A: General, books being holy and having to kill them. No, I know. Yeah. [02:16:59] Speaker B: I just truly lament that as much as I love, as much as I love Lord of the Rings, I really do truly lament that because of their popularity, that a Hobbit movie was never going to have a chance to stand on its own without being self referential like that. [02:17:23] Speaker A: I think it could have been, and we'll get to how it could been in your final verdict, I think. Because I think it all boils down to the del Toro of it all, I think. And the Peter Jackson of it all, I think once this series got. What happened happened where del Toro had to quit or quit because of production delays and all that sort of stuff, and it got hoisted onto Peter Jackson last minute and he got thrown back into the director's chair. That's when I think any chance of. Of the Hobbit being its own thing died. Because, of course, you now have the exact same director who spent 510 years of his life crafting the Lord of. [02:18:02] Speaker B: The Rings and built his career. [02:18:05] Speaker A: Yes, but even regard, disregarding that, even if we're just talking about, like, this is one of his, probably the passion project of his entire life, will have been creating the Lord of the Rings movies, if I had to guess. Peter Jackson has a lot of passion projects. He's really into the Beatles now. Or whatever and weird AI shit like Peter Jackson gets into stuff. He's a severely hyper focused kind of guy. But point being, I think if you get to the end of the life, if Peter Jackson's writing his memoir and is saying, like, what was the singular kind of greatest achievement and creative endeavor of his life, he's gonna say the Lord of the Rings movies, I would have to imagine. And so when you put that guy back in charge of the Hobbit and say you have two months, you're gonna go shoot the Hobbit movies, have fun, how are you gonna get anything other than something that is deeply connected to the Lord of the Rings? Because those consumed that man's life. [02:19:10] Speaker B: And this is why I lament. [02:19:12] Speaker A: Yes. Here's the thing. What I would love is, have we two, you know, because I actually really, well, I say that I, this is all somewhat, is all mute moot because we haven't gotten to the other two movies, right. And I don't even, it's not like I love this movie necessarily, but I actually like a lot of the stuff that they did and by tying it to the Lord of the Rings. But I also do wish we had gotten to see, see the non Peter Jackson directed version of these movies or, you know, whether it be two or three or whatever, I would have really loved to see that and have it be its own standalone thing that, that isn't nearly as tied directly to the Lord of the Rings trilogy. But I also, and I fully admit that a lot of it has to do with the fact that I have it is probably my favorite three movies of all time. Like, as a trilogy, the Lord of the Rings are as much as I love Star wars, as much as I love other things. The Lord of the Rings are like my favorite, like, movies. Like, I don't even know if I would put any three of them, like any one of them, like, in my top three necessarily on its own. But, like, as a thing, like the Lord of the Rings are deeply ingrained part of my childhood and my family. Like, they're the things I love maybe more than any movies as a whole. And so, like, I fully admit that that plays a big role in the fact that I am totally fine with the movie, with the Hobbit being like, let's explore how the Hobbit intersects with those movies. And I'm totally fine with Peter Jackson getting to do that. I just, for me, what I had wished is I wish Peter Jackson would have had two years to prepare to make his version of the Hobby. [02:20:49] Speaker B: I'm sure that would have been fucking incredible. I actually think that maybe as you were talking there, you hit on a difference in the way that you and I are approaching this, because I didn't see Lord of the Rings till I was in college. [02:21:02] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [02:21:03] Speaker B: And I feel like you knew that because I'm sure. We're sure. We discussed it. However, I grew up, as I said, watching the Rankin bass hobbit, which, to my memory is far more faithful to the text. [02:21:19] Speaker A: I'm sure it is. Yeah. [02:21:21] Speaker B: And I do feel like that may be part of it, that we're approaching it kind of from those different. I was very familiar with the Hobbit before I knew anything about Lord of the Rings. [02:21:33] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. And so, like, I will say, I think there's at least some. I think I read the Hobbit, the book before I ever watched any of the Lord of the Rings movies. Like, I think I read probably. Yeah, because they came out when I was, like, the first one came out. I was, like, 13, I think. [02:21:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:21:48] Speaker A: And I probably read this when I was, like, eleven or twelve, probably knowing the movies were coming out, maybe. And I had not read the Lord of the Rings books, or maybe I had tried reading the Lord of the Rings books and stopped because I found them too boring or whatever, and then ended up reading the Hobbit, read the whole Hobbit and really liked it. So I do. I have attachment to the book. I liked the book as a kid, but, yeah, the. The. I didn't watch the cartoon. I still don't think I've seen bits of it, but I've never, like, watched the whole thing or the animated version. And, yeah, the. The movies were just. They were in the same way the mummy is. They hit me. I. They came out when I was 1315 and 17. I don't know if movies can come out in a time in a person's life that are more foundational to who you are as, like, a. In terms of, like, crafting what you like as a. In terms of, like, media and film or whatever, whether it be books, whether it be movies, whether it be what, you know, the music you like, all that sort of stuff. That time period from twelve to 18 when you are becoming an adult and learning, because that's when you go. That is also the time period when you go from, you know, liking everything and not really, like, being able to discern what is good or what is bad. You know, you're like, yeah, before you're, like, ten years old, everything's just the same. Like, it's all for the most. You know what I mean? Like, do you get what I'm saying? Okay. It's just like, when you're a little kid, you don't know what's good and bad. You just watch stuff. And as long as it's entertaining and not boring, I guess, like, you're gonna be into it, but, you know, like, quality wise, you're not really. But, like those, you know, from 13 to 18 or whatever, which is when the Lord of the Rings movies came out and I watched. I didn't see the first one in theaters, but I saw the second and third one in theaters. Yeah, I know. Really? [02:23:25] Speaker B: You're starting to develop taste. [02:23:27] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. And so the fact that you're developing taste in that period, and those are when. Those are the movies that were like, yeah, they're just foundational to kind of what I enjoy in film in general. And so I have a deep attachment to them. And so in that regard, I think that's why, for me, the fact that the movies are like, let's do more of that, I think it is to the detriment of the film in some ways, which we'll get into in my final verdict, but it's in other ways other than, like, incorporating the story and having references. That stuff, I think is fine. I think what is a problem is the tonal differences, which I'll talk about. So. All right, that's it for lost in adaptation. We have a few odds and ends before we get to the final verdict. I think I've mentioned this before. I know I've talked about the concept, about how we occasionally have a medieval feast for dinner. Yeah, we've mentioned this, that actually. I actually started doing that because of this movie. [02:24:33] Speaker B: Really? [02:24:34] Speaker A: I saw this movie in theaters and the opening scene where they're all eating all of Bilbo's food. I got out of the movie, and I decided I wanted to do that. And so I went to the store and I bought a rotisserie chicken, a big block of cheese, a giant loaf of bread, and a bunch of, like, tomatoes and stuff. And I think, like, a bottle of wine or beer or something, and just ate it all with my hands, I think, while I watched Game of Thrones. I can't remember. Cause it was right after Game of Thrones came out, too, and that's when I started doing that. But, yeah, it was because of this movie. [02:25:08] Speaker B: So you should really read a red wall book. I really think you would like red wall. [02:25:14] Speaker A: It's fair if you. I will highly. I'll just say this, though. If you. You want a good, easy, fast, relatively healthy dinner and satisfying. And satisfying. The medieval feast dinner you really can't beat it. Go to Walmart or wherever. Get a rotisserie chicken, some cheese of your. Whatever kind you like some cherry tomatoes, some. Whatever other vegetables you like. And some bread. Some crusty bread. And then your beverage of choice. And then just eat it all with your hands and you. One, it's very delicious. And two, you will feel like a medieval king. Or a hobbit. Whatever. [02:25:49] Speaker B: Or a hobbit. Yeah. [02:25:50] Speaker A: Whatever you want. [02:25:52] Speaker B: Something that kind of bummed me out. We talked about Ian McKellen being sad when he was filming this movie because he was doing it all by himself on a green screen. And I felt like I could tell in that first scene he looked sad and lost. [02:26:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And they actually did a good job compositing him because it was pretty hard to tell that. Yeah, not there you could, but it was pretty well done. But you could also tell on the plus side that in the later scenes he was very much in. Like some of the other scenes, he was very much there with the people and he seemed more enterprise. It was mainly the Hobbit, the bag end scenes because they had to composite him in with all the dwarves and the hobbits and they couldn't. Yeah. So, yeah, I agree. You could tell. I mentioned it earlier, but, yeah. Ori is the character who's described who writes the book. Gandalf reads in the minds of Moria the drums in the deep part. And Balin, who's the guy who's, like Thorin's best friend or whatever. In this one, his mentor is the tomb. [02:26:57] Speaker B: I really want you to start referring to me as the chiefest and greatest calamity of our age. That would make me very happy. [02:27:09] Speaker A: Okay. I'll keep that in mind. I'll remember that. Chapter three in this book is titled a short rest. And that's when they get to revendel. And I was wondering if that's where the D and D term originates. Like a short rest and a long rest. [02:27:22] Speaker B: I'm not sure what you mean by that. [02:27:26] Speaker A: I think specifically d and d you can have. So. And I've never played well, not really. But I'm aware of there are these things called short and long rests in D and D that allow you to regenerate certain things. So if you have a long rest I think all of your spells and stuff regenerate or whatever and your health comes back and a short rest gives you some benefits, but not all of the benefits. And so, like, basically you have. You can take, like, certain instances within D and D. Like, after a battle, you might be able to, like, depending on where you're at, you might be able to take a short rest which allows you to regenerate some abilities or whatever. Or you. If you get to a very safe place, like a rivendell, you could take a long rest which allows you to regenerate, like, all your stuff. And I was just wondering if the specific term, because that is, like, what it is called in D and D is a short rest or a long rest. And I was wondering if that came from this title of the book. I don't know. [02:28:24] Speaker B: I did some googling. I wouldn't be surprised, though, because we know that, obviously. [02:28:29] Speaker A: Yeah, obviously. A lot of D and D inspired. [02:28:31] Speaker B: By middle earth and Lord of the Rings. Yeah. [02:28:34] Speaker A: I did some googling. I couldn't find anything that explicitly stated that, but it seems likely to me. [02:28:43] Speaker B: I'm gonna have more kind of thoughts on what we're about to discuss here. We both do in the final verdict. But I just. Something I found so exhausting was how deadly seriously this movie takes itself. Just at times. Yeah. [02:28:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And that was my big thing, is it's a mess. Tonally. [02:29:02] Speaker B: Yes. [02:29:02] Speaker A: And part of that goes back, some of that, again, does go back to the dwarf designs where they couldn't decide between whimsical cartoon that feel from the book or the more grounded kind of gritty world that the Lord of the Rings movies established. And that's where I think the biggest flaw with the connection to the Lord of the Rings movies is tonally and, like, art direction and style and stuff. Not so much like weaving them together in terms of the narrative, but in terms of, like, are we doing Lord of the Rings or are we doing cartoon? Like, what are we doing? And that's where I think the biggest issue came because we kind of get stuck in the middle and the movie teeter totters back and forth between what. [02:29:43] Speaker B: It is and it very often does not work. [02:29:46] Speaker A: Yes. And I think that's. Yeah, that's where. Or my big issue with it came. [02:29:51] Speaker B: Fun fact about me. I don't know if you know this. [02:29:54] Speaker A: I don't think I did. No, I did. [02:29:56] Speaker B: You mentioned, did you know this? [02:29:57] Speaker A: I did, yeah. [02:29:58] Speaker B: I don't know if the good people know this. [02:30:00] Speaker A: No, I don't think so. [02:30:01] Speaker B: In college, I had two goldfish. Not for a super long time because they're goldfish from the pet store. And I didn't really know how to take care of them, but I did for a while in college, have two goldfish named Orchrist the Goblin Cleaver and glamdring, the foe hammer. [02:30:20] Speaker A: Very good. Very good. I didn't remember that they gave Figwit a role in this movie. [02:30:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:30:30] Speaker A: Figwit shows up when they get to Rivendell. He, like, greets all the dwarves. And if you don't know, Figwit is an elf from return of the king. Two towers. [02:30:42] Speaker B: That's return of the king, is it not? [02:30:44] Speaker A: I think it's return of the king. I couldn't remember. Yeah. When they're leaving and they're going on their journey or whatever, he's part of the elf escort that goes with them all, with Arwen and stuff. When Arwen decides not to leave, he's the elf that is like, where are you going? Or whatever. And he's called Figwit because that's like a fan applied name that stands for Frodo is great. Who is that? Or. Right. [02:31:06] Speaker B: Yeah, Frodo is great. Who is that? [02:31:07] Speaker A: Yeah, who is that? Because he's hot. Handsome, handsome elf played by Brett McKenzie, who is half of. Half of flight of the Concords, the other half of which is Jermaine Clement, who, you may know is the writer producer on what we do in the shadows and all that kind of. He's worked on tons of stuff from New Zealand, which is why Brett McKinsey makes an appearance in this, because they filmed in New Zealand. They were actors in New Zealand at the time, but he got cast in this one again. But according to Brett McKenzie himself, he says that the. Which the character's name in this one, they say Linder or Linder or something like that. And he says it's not the same character as the elf in. But why in the world. [02:31:48] Speaker B: Why wouldn't the world. Wouldn't it be. [02:31:51] Speaker A: It's an elf from Rivendell, hangs out with Elrond. Like, of course it's the same. [02:31:55] Speaker B: They never say his name in the original trilogy. [02:31:58] Speaker A: No, he doesn't say it. [02:31:59] Speaker B: So there's no reason it can't be the same character. I think it's a little weird that they'd specify that it isn't. [02:32:04] Speaker A: And again, that's just what I saw on the. It was like on a. The Wiki article for this character. Yeah, he says it. Brett McKenzie, the actor, says it's not the same character, but he's a comedian. He may have just been fucking with people. Like, I think it's the same character. It's gotta be the same character. There's no reason it's not the same character. It's the same guy playing an elf that hangs out at Rivendell. It's gotta be the same character. Why would it not be? I thought, and I mentioned earlier, but Hugo weaving as Elrond is good. [02:32:35] Speaker B: Co weaving is really good. [02:32:37] Speaker A: He's great in everything. But, man, I think he just is perfect as Elrond. He has such a great gravity, gravitas that works so well for that character. [02:32:48] Speaker B: Am I remembering correctly that the marketing for this movie played up the scene between Galadriel and Gandalf? They were going to be a thing and then people were mad about it? Or am I making that up? [02:33:05] Speaker A: So I will say this. I have, quote, quote Gandalf himself, I have no memory of this place, so I do not remember that at all. [02:33:14] Speaker B: But also, it is very possible, because this was 2012 and this was, like, the prime time of my life when I was on Tumblr. [02:33:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:33:23] Speaker B: So it's very possible that this is something that I remember from Tumblr exclusively. So if you also were on Tumblr at this time and you were remember this, please let me know so that I don't feel crazy. My other, my, like, big Tolkien lore question from watching this movie is whether all elf blades glow blue when Orcs are nearby or if it's just sting. [02:33:46] Speaker A: So I believe in the books, it is all elf blades, or at the very least, some specific. It's not just sting because it is very specifically mentioned that in the lore that orcrist and glamdring are supposed to glow. They don't, apparently, in. So glamdringe is in the Lord of the Rings series. That's the sword. Cause Gandalf has it the whole time, and that's the sword he has in that. And people have speculated. I don't know if maybe he says it in an interview or in special features or something, but I saw. I was reading something on Reddit or something about people saying that, like, probably he didn't have, like, glamdring and other elf swords glow in the original or in the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Cause he didn't want people to be, like, confused about, like, why are these swords, like, if all the swords are glowing, they would look too much like lightsabers. And, like, he just thought. And plus, on top of that, having sting be, like, the only one that glows in that series is a nice way to make sting feel kind of special. And cool. [02:34:42] Speaker B: Or whatever. [02:34:43] Speaker A: Again, I don't know. But, yes, as far as I know, either all elf blades glow or, like, lots of the very specific. Maybe they don't do it for all of them, but, like, they're, like, finest crafted swords or whatever are some sort of. [02:34:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I was just gonna say. I would imagine that would be a magic. [02:34:59] Speaker A: Yeah. So maybe they don't do it for every single sword they make, but, like, very specific. Nice. [02:35:04] Speaker B: The important one or something. [02:35:05] Speaker A: I don't know. [02:35:06] Speaker B: Only the best swords. [02:35:07] Speaker A: Point being, it's not just sting that does it. It is, because sting's literally just like a dagger. It's like some special. It becomes a special sword eventually, but it's. This is some dagger that they find. [02:35:19] Speaker B: A moment at the end of the last fight scene at the end of this movie that was cracking me up was when they're all out on the tree and the movie cut back and forth, like, five times between a song and Thorin. Just like, back and forth, back and. [02:35:39] Speaker A: Forth in slow mo. [02:35:41] Speaker B: Yes. And I was like, oh, there's a lot of intense gazing between these two mortal enemies, and I think we all know what that means. [02:35:51] Speaker A: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I'm sure that slash pick exists. I guarantee you. [02:35:56] Speaker B: I absolutely guarantee you that much. Slash fix, if that exists. [02:36:00] Speaker A: Guarantee it. All right. Right before we get to the final verdict, we wanted to remind you, you can do us a giant favor by heading over to Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, goodreads, or threads, any of the social media platforms where you can find us interact. We'd love to hear what you thought about the Hobbit and unexpected journey. How does it compare to the book? Which side do you land on in terms of, you know, do you like that? It's more like Lord of the Rings. Do you wish it was more of its own thing? What are your thoughts? We would love to hear it. We'll talk about that on the next prequel episode, so get those comments in ASAP. You can also help us out by heading over to Apple podcasts or Spotify or wherever you're listening to our show. Drop us a five star rating. Write us a nice little review that helps us get us out to more people. That's all great. And if you really want to help us, head over to patreon.com. thisfilmislit support us there. Different levels, but at the $5 and up level, you get access to bonus content. If you want to hit every, every month, we put out a bonus episode about whatever we want. Recently, we've talked about the Rocketeer we're going to talk about ten things I hate about you this month. We'll be doing something related to the Hobbit next month, so keep all that in mind if you want to get that bonus. Content $5 and up and if you support us for $15 a month or more, you get access to priority recommendations where if there's something you would really like for us to talk about on a main episode of the show, support us for $15 a month. Request it and we will add it to our queue as soon as we possibly can. Ten katie it's time for the final verdict. [02:37:20] Speaker B: No sentence passed. Verdict after? That's stupid. Since their release, the Hobbit movies have been something of a running joke. Turning 1300 ish page book into three three hour movies was a choice, and it's resulted in quite a bit of mockery over the years years. However, this first installment at least isnt as bad as their overall legacy might lead you to think. The movie is largely faithful to the books major plot points, and it draws its biggest expansions from elements that are at least mentioned in the book, the Necromancer, Thorin's backstory, and the question of where Gandalf goes and what he's doing when he disappears from the main story line. But although the ideas are there on paper, in execution, the film stumbles. A big part of the problem for me is that the film is stuck in a weird middle ground between the book, a childlike, whimsical fairy story, and Peter Jacksons Lord of the Rings trilogy high fantasy grounded in gritty realism and heavy themes, the films uncertainty in its own tone results in an uneven world building experience, experience perhaps best exemplified by the character design of the dwarves and a loss of some of the more charming elements from the book. The orcs have to be horrible and scary, and can under no circumstances sing a little song. Add to that too, a bloated runtime, an over reliance on too slick CGI animation, and references to Lord of the Rings that range from totally fine to kinda cringy fanservice and youve got a bit of a recipe for a disaster were one movie into the Hobbit trilogy, and I already find myself understanding that for me, part of this summer series will be mourning what we could have had with Guillermo del Toro at the helm. And as for what we ended up with, well, im giving this one to the book, but unlike Bilbo, im under no impression that the worst is behind us. [02:39:34] Speaker A: Before I read my final verdict here, I did want to mention that we write these separately for the summer series. Like, we each write them independently and then copy paste them into the document so that, like, one of us isn't like, reading the other person's while we're writing it. Just. There's got to be some similarities here, but these were written separately on their own. So I actually really enjoyed this movie this time around. I thought it made a lot of really smart decisions with the script fleshing out some of the stuff that's hinted at in the book and adding some character arcs and motivations that result a film that stands firmly on its own by giving us a satisfying conclusion despite only being a third of the way through the book. I actually really loved this stuff from Gandalf and Galadriel and Elrond and Saruman, and I really liked the slight tweaks that they made to both Bilbo and Thorin's characters. But the movie is still a bit of a mess. You can absolutely tell that it did not get the painstaking attention to detail in the pre production phase that the Lord of the Rings trilogy did. Some of the characters and moments feel like they belong in the comparably grittier Lord of the Rings trilogy, while others feel like they belong in a Saturday morning cartoon. And unfortunately, this dissonance results in an uneven viewing experience that just doesn't completely work. Slap on the fact that much of the movie has an overly polished CGI sheen that reminds me of some of the lesser fantasy properties out there. And the result is a movie that, while fun, simply doesn't hold up to the book. So while I have a feeling that this is the closest to the competition we'll get this summer, I'm still giving this one to the book. So we agreed on our final verdict this time. And, yeah, we. We shall see how we get going forward. But, katie, I mean, I think people know, but what's next? [02:41:15] Speaker B: Well, I mean, we're doing things a little differently this summer because often we're covering a bunch of separate books. [02:41:21] Speaker A: Yes, so we do. [02:41:22] Speaker B: So we. We have buffer episodes in between, but this time we're slamming straight through and we are going right on ahead to the Hobbit, the desolation of Smaug. [02:41:33] Speaker A: There you go. So we'll be talking about the Hobbit, the desolation of Smaug in two weeks time. But in one week's time, we'll be back for the prequel episode for that, where we will preview the desolation of Smaug as well as get all of your feedback, everything you had to say, all your arguments, all your disagreements about the hobbit and unexpected journey. So let us know. Get those comments in like I said on all the social media, and we'll see you back in one week's time for that preview. Until that time, guys, gals, non binary pals, and everybody else, keep reading books, keep watching movies, and keep being awesome.