It Ends with Us

[00:00:04] Speaker A: This Film Is lit, the podcast where we finally settle the score on one simple Is the book really better than the movie? I'm Brian and I have a film degree, so I watch the movie but don't read the book. [00:00:15] Speaker B: And I'm Katie, I have an English degree, so I do things the right way and read the book before we watch the movie. [00:00:22] Speaker A: So prepare to be wowed by our expertise and charm as we dissect all of your favorite film adaptations and decide if the silver screen the or the written word did it better. So turn it up, settle in, and get ready for spoilers because this film is lit. You can stop swimming now, Lily. We finally reached the shore. It's it ends with us, and this film is lit. Hello and welcome back to this Film is Lit, the podcast where we talk about movies that are based on books. We got so much to talk about on this very special episode. It's not really, but on this episode of this film is that we're talking about. It ends with us. And if you're here to hear about the drama outside of the movie, we addressed it a little bit in the prequel episode. You can go back and listen to that. We touched on it briefly, but this episode is not gonna be about that, like, at all, really, pretty much. We might touch on it occasionally here and there as part of the discussion, but it's really not gonna be the main thing. So we have plenty of stuff to talk about with this movie, though, so if you have not read or watched it ends with us. We're gonna give you a brief summary of the film right now. Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up. This summary is sourced from Wikipedia. Lily Bloom delivers a eulogy at her father Andrew's funeral. From the podium, she announces that she will list five of her favorite things about him. After standing in silence for several seconds, she walks off. Back home in Boston, she meets neurosurgeon Ryle Kincaid. They flirt until he is called away for emergency surgery. While renovating the building she bought to start her flower shop, Lily meets Alyssa and hires her where she learns that she is Ryle's sister. At Alyssa's birthday party, Ryle tells Lily that he is infatuated with her. They kiss, but she declines to sleep with him, saying that he has that he is only interested in casual sex. Where she wants a relationship. She spends the night at his apartment and accepts his invitation to date him. The next morning, Ryle persuades her to introduce him to her mother, Ginny, at a new restaurant called Root There, Lily discovers that the owner and head chef is her former boyfriend, Atlas Corrigan. She doesn't learn that yet, but whatever she learns, he works there at this moment, but that's fine. Flashbacks reveal that Andrew had physically abused Jenny and that Lily had found Atlas living in an empty house next door after he had run away from his mother's abusive boyfriend. They fall in love and upon finding them in bed together, Andrew severely beats Atlas. Atlas joins the Marines One morning, Ryle burns his hand while cooking breakfast for Lily. When she tries to help, he slaps her, but he immediately apologizes, insisting that it was an accident. While Ryle, Lily and Elisa and her husband Marshall are dining at root, Atlas notices confused Elisa and Atlas. Atlas and also the Nobody has real names except for Marshall and Lily. I guess those are real names, but Rylee and Atlas are not real names. At least notices Lily's Bruce, the eye and Ryle's bandaged hand. He confronts Lily, imploring her to leave Ryle. When Ryle finds them together, he assumes the worst and a physical altercation breaks out, culminating in Atlas rejecting ejecting Ryle. Atlas visits Lily's shop, gives her his phone number and tells her to call him if she ever needs to. Lily confides in Ryle that her father abused her mother. While visiting Alyssa and Marshall in a hospital after the birth of their daughter, Lily accepts Ryle's proposal of marriage. The soon after they elope, Ryle later finds Alice's phone number hidden in Lily's phone case. During an ensuing argument, Ryle pushes Lily down the stairs. He later claims that she fell and that he tried to catch her. Atlas is interviewed by local magazine, telling them that he named his restaurant in Lily's honor. In a jealous rage, Ryle tries to rape Lily. She escapes and seeks out Atlas, who takes her to a hospital where she discovers that she is pregnant. Lily stays with Atlas for a few days, during which time he reveals that he had planned to kill himself on the night she had found him, but that she had inspired him to carry on living. When Lily opens up to Alyssa about Ryle' treatment of her, Alyssa reveals that as a child, Ryle had accidentally shot and killed their brother Emerson, which led to unresolved trauma manifesting as uncontrollable bouts of rage. She insists that Lily not take Ryle back. Lyle moves out. Lily moves out, but Ryle implores her to return, promising to seek help and stop the abuse. Lily gives birth to a daughter whom they name Emerson. She tells Ryle that she wants a divorce and he initially resists, but eventually agrees when she asks him how he would react if their daughter were to be abused by a partner. Lily hopes that she has broken the cycle of abuse in her family and tells her daughter. It ends with us. Months later. Lily and Jenny take Emerson to visit Andrew's grave, where Lily leaves a blank eulogy on his headstone. She meets Atlas at the farmer's market. She tells him that she is no longer with Ryle, and they smile at each other. The end. I have so many questions. We're gonna get right into them in. Was that in the book? [00:05:13] Speaker B: Gaston? May I have my book, please? [00:05:15] Speaker A: How can you read this? [00:05:17] Speaker B: There's no pictures. Well, some people use their imagination so [00:05:21] Speaker A: much to get to. We're gonna start at the beginning, which I guess makes as much sense as anything. Does the story open with Lily returning home for her father's funeral? [00:05:30] Speaker B: The book actually opens with Lily already on the roof thinking about the funeral. So we get all of the same information just via her inner monologue. And then the conversation with Ryle instead of a literal scene at the funeral. [00:05:47] Speaker A: I think that's a good choice to add the actually have her go to the funeral. I think that makes sense. Well, speaking of said funeral, then I assume we at least find out a little bit about it. Does she get up to do a Yule trilogy for her father? And does she have a blank list of five things that she likes about him that she stares at briefly before kind of just leaving? [00:06:08] Speaker B: That does happen in the book, although I didn't. I didn't really care for the way that the movie depicted it. In the book, she gets up to deliver the eulogy. She says, I want to take a moment to honor his life by sharing with you five great things about my father. And then proceeds to stand there in silence for two full minutes and on purpose. Okay, but the way that the movie depicts this, it seems like she was trying to actually do this eulogy, but just couldn't think of anything. Like, anything good to say and then ran off. [00:06:43] Speaker A: Yes. [00:06:45] Speaker B: And the difference is important to me because this made me, like, book Lily out the gate. [00:06:51] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:06:51] Speaker B: I was like, oh, okay, a petty bitch. I can get on board with that. [00:06:55] Speaker A: Right. I think both work in their own way. I think. I don't. I thought the movie's version of having her actually go up there and look at the list that she knew she had not written anything on felt a little awkward. [00:07:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:10] Speaker A: But I didn't mind that she went in planning to do some sort of eulogy. And like her mom's like, I don't know, just write down five, like favorite things or whatever. And she struggles and fails to do that and then kind of storms out. I don't mind that in the movie from the sense of like, this is a situation where she feels like she has to do that even though she doesn't want to. You know, she needs to say something. I also think the movie's version kind of works for the journey her character goes on. Having her be a little less openly defiant and like a little less headstrong at the beginning of the movie, I think works again with the journey that her character goes on in the movie of realizing she's in an abusive relationship. I think if she came out the gate feeling like, I don't stand for this, this is, you know what I like. If she came out of the gate feeling like a very confident, self assured. I will stand here in silence at my father's eulogy because he was abusive. I think that might make it harder to buy that she would. Maybe, but maybe not. I think you could still make it work, but I think that maybe it might make it harder to buy that she would. That the journey she goes on makes as much sense. Maybe. I don't know. [00:08:29] Speaker B: I mean, I definitely see what you're saying and I don't disagree. But I also think that at least in the book, a huge part of the point is that she comes from this background and she, she, quote, unquote, should know better. Quote, unquote, should know. But she's. Yet still finds herself in this situation. [00:08:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's fair because as I was talking, that was a thought that popped into my head was like, okay, but that at the same time I can see the, the opposite argument of you're kind of really subverting the fact that. Yeah. The fact that she, she does come from a situation where she knows this happens, can happen and is bad and kind of knows some of the signs and knows the fact that it doesn't always. That abuse doesn't always look, you know, blah, blah, blah or whatever and that she has a mom who made excuses for it, all of that. I think it's still, I think it could work either way. So that's fair. I don't, I guess I don't have strong feelings either way, but I didn't dislike the way the movie did it. I, like I said, I did feel like it was a little funny that she got up there and then looked. I understand why the movie did it, but it felt a Little clunky. Like she looked down expecting, like, hoping. Maybe magically somebody wrote five things on them. You know what I mean? Again, I get it. In the context of the scene. I don't even think it's, like, awful. I just think it felt a little funny because I think you could explain it away. I was like, yeah, maybe she was kind of hoping, like, you know, like, it's a weird, stressful situation I can almost understand. Like, in a kind of a fit [00:10:00] Speaker B: of like, maybe I blacked out. [00:10:02] Speaker A: Yes. Like, maybe last night I scribbled something down. Let's hope now. Okay. Damn. Like, I get. Yeah. So she goes home from the funeral for her father, and then she's hanging out on the roof, which apparently is where the book starts. And we are introduced to Ryle. And her introduction for both us and her is Ryle kicking in the door to the roof and then kicking a chair over. As he's on the phone, he's very upset. And I wanted to know if that was how Ryle was introduced in the book. Cause we get red flag from moment one, which clearly very intentional. Like, hey, look, this guy has maybe some anger issues. [00:10:39] Speaker B: Yeah, that is how he's introduced in the book. She's hanging out on the roof, and he comes up and kicks the chair before he notices that she's up there. [00:10:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that's fair. So they get introduced. This is the meet cute. And they're kind of learning who each. They've never met each other. This is their first time meeting, even though they live in the building together. And although she says she doesn't, she says she's. [00:11:02] Speaker B: Yeah, she just. She goes there because she wants to go up on the roof. [00:11:06] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [00:11:07] Speaker B: Cause her building doesn't have a rooftop deck. [00:11:09] Speaker A: The movie explains. [00:11:11] Speaker B: She, like, she really wants to hang out on a rooftop deck and, like, be pensive and look out over the city. [00:11:16] Speaker A: Okay. [00:11:16] Speaker B: So she just picks a building that looks like it has a nice rooftop deck. [00:11:20] Speaker A: Fair. So. But as they're introducing themselves, he asks what her name is, obviously. And she says after she hears his name and makes fun of his name because his name is ridiculous. Yes, Ryle Kincaid. Ridiculous. [00:11:34] Speaker B: Ryle Kyle. [00:11:35] Speaker A: With an R. Yeah, Ryle Kincaid. A guy who gets riled up is named Ryle. Incredible. And yes, the florist. We have a giant bout of nominative determinism in this because Lily is a florist and her name is Lily Bloom. And in the movie, Ryle kind of lampshades her name. And he's like, really? Your name is Lily Bloom and then calls her Lily Blossom Bloom as, like, a joke. And I wanted to know if that came from the book because that one thing I had heard about this book was people kind of laughing at the names of the characters. And so the movie lampshading that I thought was. [00:12:11] Speaker B: So her name actually is. Her middle name is Blossom. [00:12:13] Speaker A: Oh, it is. I thought he made that up. No. [00:12:16] Speaker B: Oh, that is her middle name. Okay. [00:12:17] Speaker A: Good Lord. [00:12:18] Speaker B: And he does a little bit, I guess, in the book, but not the way that he does in the movie. They have kind of a similar conversation, but he just guesses that her middle name is Violet instead of doing a whole bit. [00:12:32] Speaker A: Okay. But he does kind of lampshade her [00:12:34] Speaker B: name a little, I guess. [00:12:35] Speaker A: So the movie or the book does at least acknowledge that it's a silly. [00:12:39] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. [00:12:41] Speaker A: All right, so the next question I had, because this was my. This movie started pretty on my. On the wrong foot with me mainly just by a couple of different things. One, and I had a note about it later, but it might make as much sense to talk about it here. One of the things that really annoyed me, especially in this first scene, which actually kind of ends up working in the movie's favor eventually, was that I found it kind of impossible to watch this movie objectively. And this obviously gets into the outside the movie stuff. But in that opening scene on the roof, I legitimately despised their chemistry and his performance in that scene, I thought it felt really, really fake. But I was also unsure how much of that was colored by my knowledge of him and the movie and the process and everything that happened outside of it and everything going on, all of the drama. I didn't know, like, how much the. Of my perception of their chemistry and that all of that was colored by that. But I also then once I. Because I didn't know going into this that he ended up being abusive, I learned that. I figured that out pretty quick, actually. From the moment he kicked it, I was like, oh, so he's the guy who's the abuse? I legitimately didn't know who, like, you know, I knew this abuse was in the story, but I didn't know, like, who or how. [00:14:04] Speaker B: Which guy it was. [00:14:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Or anything. So as soon as he kicked the chair, I was like, okay, well, this is what we're doing, like, obviously. And so it almost kind of worked in the sense of, like, there was, like, this weird meta level that the movie kind of works in that knowing Beldonia is just, like, an asshole or whatever. Did help my, like, actually initially I was like, I don't like. Like, it's making it hard to figure out how I feel about their chemistry. But then thinking back more, it. It almost kind of works in a meta way of like, him this thing being under the surface despite him projecting this other personnel. You know what I mean? And it got to this point where I'm like, oh, this is so weird. I don't know how I feel about it. But that opening scene on the roof, their chemistry wasn't working for me. And it just. A lot of that wasn't working for me. And the other thing that I thought was really interesting about it, that changed as the movie went on and we'll talk about that, I actually started to like the movie more and more as it went. The other thing about that opening or that rooftop scene that really bothered me was just the pacing and where it fell. In the movie, it's like three. We have that opening funeral scene and the stuff with her mom very, very briefly. That's like the first four minutes of the movie or something like that. And then she's back in Boston. And then we get this rooftop scene that lasts forever. And it just felt like the movie drugged to a complete halt to do this meet cute on the roof that lasts, like, 10 minutes. It just. Something about that pacing and that opening 15 minutes of the movie felt really off to me. And I wanted to know if the book was, like, structured similarly, because it just felt really, really awkward to me. It felt like the movie just screeched to a halt before it even had a chance to get going. It does fix that. And then basically, from the rooftop scene, like, after the rooftop team toward the end of the movie, I didn't really have that issue anymore. It was just this. It just felt. And I think part of that, too, was added on of just like their chemistry wasn't working for me. The banter felt overly written. Like, it felt very, very, like, scripty. And so that whole scene just wasn't working for me. And I wanted to know if it came from the book. [00:16:17] Speaker B: Like I said, the book actually opens with the rooftop scene. [00:16:20] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. [00:16:22] Speaker B: And I was not bothered by how the beginning of the movie was structured, probably because I was expecting it, because the rooftop scene is very long in the book. But I can definitely see what you're saying, and I do understand the decision to open with the funeral. [00:16:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that was a good [00:16:38] Speaker B: call, because I feel like the alternative would be to do, like, flashbacks to it during the rooftop scene. [00:16:44] Speaker A: I don't think that would. [00:16:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And I don't think that would be any better. [00:16:48] Speaker A: No, I don't think it would be better. I think what would have helped me a little bit more would have been just a little bit more establishment before the rooftop scene. Like maybe you set up and maybe I'd have to think about. About more how well it would have worked. But like if you had established a little more about like her store and bought like some of the stuff of her like getting the keys to the shop and like starting to set it up or something like that. Like give a little bit more of the setup before we get. And like I understand why it falls where it does because she's like sitting there dealing with her father's death and stuff. [00:17:22] Speaker B: Right. [00:17:22] Speaker A: But it just, it. It just felt like the movie had. Okay. Like I was like, okay, I'm getting to low. Larry. Learn a little bit about. I felt like I didn't know Lily enough as a character yet maybe for that scene to work the way it did and for the movie to just screech to a halt on that roof for like 10 minutes to introduce again. I know he's the other main character. It just felt really weird to me. Like it just. The pacing of it just did not work for me. But like I said after that I had no issues. So it was really just that scene. And as like obviously you learn a lot of interesting stuff in that scene that's important for the rest of the movie. But yeah, it just. I don't know, it wasn't my favorite scene in the movie. Apparently. That's the scene that I think they said that Ryan Reynolds rewrote a lot of. So woof. Cause a lot of that dialogue is rough. In my opinion. It just, it's overly. It feels like something I would have written in college. Like, it's just. It's me writing a meet cute 10 years ago. It's probably me writing a Meet Cute now. Cause I'm not a screenwriter. But like, you know what I mean? Like, it's just. It's somebody who's an okay writer and like is trying to be clever in a way that just feels kind of exhausting to watch. And I didn't actually get that feeling from like the rest of the movie. So I don't know. Yeah. But during that scene, one of the things. Lines that I specifically wanted to ask about because it becomes very, very important later on, which I thought was really interesting, is that in this moment it really took me out of the scene. It was some of the like overly tried. Like the Overly scripted kind of nature of what was going on here is they start flirting, and towards the end of this interaction, she's like, well, I'm not gonna have sex with you. Blah, blah, blah, whatever. And he goes, well, how far would you go? And she responds to that question with, I don't know. I'm an unreliable narrator. You could try me. And then he starts, like, touching her leg or whatever. And I was like, wait a second, that's not. I was trying to figure out what the unreliable narrator was in, like, how that sentence even made sense. [00:19:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:23] Speaker A: Because, like, how far will you go? I don't know. I'm an unreliable narrator. How is that a response to that question? I was like, okay. I guess what she's saying is she's referring to the sentence two sentences ago when she said, oh, I'm not going to sleep with you or whatever. And she's saying, well, I'm an unreliable narrator. So that thing I said two sentences ago might not be true. Is what she's impressed plying there? [00:19:49] Speaker B: Maybe. [00:19:50] Speaker A: I think maybe it's very, very clunkily inserted. And in my opinion. But you will figure out why it's there as the movie goes on, and we'll talk about that more later. But I was, like, very confused. I thought it was a very clunky line. I wanted to know if it came from the book. [00:20:09] Speaker B: So Ryle does ask, how far would you go during their rooftop flirtation. But the line about Lily being an unreliable narrator is not in the book. [00:20:19] Speaker A: Okay. [00:20:20] Speaker B: And I do think it's an interesting addition, given the movie's upcoming decisions, which we'll discuss on down the line. [00:20:28] Speaker A: It's a little obvious. I don't think I needed that line there because obviously it gets revealed what's going on later. [00:20:35] Speaker B: Right? [00:20:35] Speaker A: But it did. I did have a moment while we were watching the movie where I turn to you and go, oh. Cause I had the thought, like, oh, maybe this is, like, during the first scene where she gets her. Where he hits her the first time. Later, the frittata scene, I was like, oh, maybe this is like. Because I was very confused by what was going on and, like, the reactions and everything. So I was like, oh, yeah, this is. [00:21:00] Speaker B: It's almost like a meta clue. [00:21:02] Speaker A: Yes. No, it's 100%. That's not almost what it is. That's 100% what it is. And I think that's why it was so clunky feeling. It's because it was shoehorned in there as a meta clue about what's going on later, which, again, I don't even think you really need because we get a full reveal. [00:21:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:19] Speaker A: If you had never done the full reveal, you would definitely need, you know, like, something like this. If you've never gotten the full reveal of, like, oh, what's going on here? Then you might want, like, if the movie had kept it intentionally vague the whole time. [00:21:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:34] Speaker A: And never had, like, the flashback where you see the Rashomon version of it, you know, you'd be like, okay. But I think since the movie does that, you don't really need to, like, put a spotlight on it in this way. [00:21:49] Speaker B: It's fine. [00:21:49] Speaker A: It doesn't really matter. But it did. At the same time, I thought it works. Okay. Like, it definitely did trigger my brain before the reveal to think about that. Like, okay. She specifically showed you as an unreliable narrator, so it's a little on the nose, but, like, okay. So then we move forward, and right after their rooftop scene, we get the first flashback where we see her. Her meeting and her relationship with Atlas as a kid. And I wanted to know if that came from the book where we get these kind of parallel storylines where we. Throughout the film, we cut back and we see her relationship as she befriends her homeless neighbor Atlas, and they become friends and then ultimately lovers. And I wanted to know if the book was a similarly structured. Where we get, like, the intermittent flashbacks. [00:22:38] Speaker B: Yes, the book is similarly structured where we have these two kind of parallel storylines. However, in the book, this is framed through Lily rereading her old journal from high school, like, from the time that this plotline with Atlas was taking place. Which brings me to a running pop culture reference motif that I am desperate to talk about. So this is almost entirely cut from the movie, but when we first see young Lily, she's writing in a journal, and in a blink and you miss it moment, you can see that she. She has addressed the journal entry Dear Ellen. [00:23:20] Speaker A: Yes, I did notice that. [00:23:21] Speaker B: Yes. [00:23:22] Speaker A: I even thought to myself, she's writing the Ellen DeGeneres. [00:23:25] Speaker B: Oh, but wait. Because the conce that runs throughout this entire book is that her diary entries are letters to Ellen DeGeneres. [00:23:36] Speaker A: Fascinating. [00:23:37] Speaker B: And it's not just like, she starts them with dear Ellen and then writes about her life. She also talks a lot about how much she likes and admires Ellen and how much she likes her show and, like, how funny she is and et cetera, et cetera. There was one line in the book that absolutely fried me where she was talking about how Ellen interviewed Barack Obama, like, before like during his. His first presidential run. And she writes, man, so much has happened to both of us. You just interviewed someone who might be our next president, and I'm feeding a homeless boy. I mean, it seems like a thing [00:24:21] Speaker A: a teenager in my mind. [00:24:21] Speaker B: I know, I know. And that's the thing. Like, I read that and I had this moment of like, it just took me all the way out. But it is absolutely something a 15 year old would write in her diary. 100%. And look, this book came out in 2016, which means that Colleen Hoover was writing it, like 2014, 2015, maybe even earlier, which was peak Ellen DeGeneres popularity. But nobody could have ever predicted how that would age. And I just found it endlessly funny. [00:24:58] Speaker A: It is very funny because, yeah, they clearly remove. There's actually another. [00:25:02] Speaker B: Yeah, they show her briefly on tv. [00:25:04] Speaker A: Yeah. When he comes over for the first time, she's watching. [00:25:07] Speaker B: She's watching. [00:25:07] Speaker A: You want to watch tv? And she's watching Ellen. [00:25:09] Speaker B: Yeah, but read. I have to imagine that reading that in 2016. Wildly different experience from reading it in 2026. [00:25:20] Speaker A: Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. That is very, very funny. So then back in the current timeline or the contemporary timeline, there she's starting to kind of meet and hang out with. She meets Alyssa as she's opening her shop. This woman comes in, played by Jenny Slate, who wants to is just like this random rich girl looking for a job. She's married to a rich guy. It seems like she's bored. Yeah, I don't think we know anything really about in the book. [00:25:47] Speaker B: I'm sure we do. In the book, he built some apps and sold them, so now they're really rich. [00:25:54] Speaker A: And so she's bored and looking for something to do. So she comes in and gets a job at Lily's florist flower shop. And it turns out that Ryle is her brother. And that's like, surprise, he's a brother. And so they all start hanging out together. And one of the things they do, one of the first things they do is they go to a bar together to watch the Bruins game. Because this all takes place in Boston. And when they go to the bar, at the bar they go to, if you wear a onesie, like pajama, like pajama onesies, you get a free beer or something or some sort of free beer. There's a free beer deal for wearing onesies. And I wanted to know if that came from the book, because that was interesting. [00:26:32] Speaker B: It does come from the book. And I did try looking to see if this was A real thing. And I couldn't find anything conclusive. I googled a couple different combinations of words and everything I was coming up with were Bruins themed baby onesies. So if we have any Boston area listeners, please let us know. If Bruins fans wear onesies to bars to get free beer during games, I [00:27:00] Speaker A: would imagine it probably wouldn't be two bars, but there might be a bar that, like, Colleen Hoover saw or something. You know what I mean? So, yeah, I doubt it. At least that. Because if it was a thing that, like, lots of bars did, I think you could find it pretty easily. But if, like one bar did it, you know, then yeah. But yeah, I was interested. I was like, okay, sure, whatever. But yeah, I saw, because one of the reviews you posted was like, they never explained the onesie thing. It's like they do in the movie. [00:27:27] Speaker B: There's a quick line about it. [00:27:28] Speaker A: I mean, sure, it's a single line, but they very. Actually, there's two lines about it before they go. The first time, she's like, hey, they're wearing onesies. Because you go to this bar, you get free beer if you wear a onesie. And then at the bar, one of them is like, she's like, oh, I'll have wine. He goes, you don't get free wine for wearing a onesie. You get free beer or whatever. So they. They say it twice. I was like, it's not really like, the movie explains it pretty explicitly, but I guess you could miss it. It's not like, impossible to miss, but it's not. It also wasn't like it was very clearly explained, I thought. But I've missed things in movies before. I can't. Those in glass houses and whatnot. So as they start hanging out more, Ryle pushes harder and harder for her to, like, be with him. He's very attracted to her. He keeps coming on to her. [00:28:16] Speaker B: He wants to have sex with her. [00:28:18] Speaker A: He's flirting with her constantly. And yes, he wants to have sex with. [00:28:21] Speaker B: With her. [00:28:21] Speaker A: And she keeps rebuffing his advances to the point where she shows up at this party at Alyssa's, like, birthday party that they're throwing, and Ryle's there and they're having a conversation and he's like, just aggressively flirting with her. And she's literally just like over and over again telling him to stop. [00:28:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:39] Speaker A: And he just blows right through all of that. And I wanted to know if that, like, dynamic came from the book, because I was trying to decide as we were watching it how good of a job I thought the movie was doing, writing the line between this guy's an obvious creep versus she made an understandable mistake and his. He's. He's basically, how much did they ride the line between obvious creep versus, like, he's charismatic enough to pull off. Pull this off, you know what I mean? And I think it did a pretty good job. Like, I was actually pretty impressed that the movie, I thought, did a believable job of both making it clear that he was being an overly aggressive like that. That this is like, not how you should flirt with people, but also making it believable enough that she might find it kind of endearing. You know what I mean? Like, I actually was like, had to give the movie a little bit of props of like, that's a tough thing to do, I feel like. And I thought the movie did an okay job. [00:29:42] Speaker B: Okay. So I have a lot of thoughts on this. I'm not going to try to compare specific things that he says and does. I don't really remember every single thing. But I think in general, the movie does a pretty good job with this. In the book, there's a lot of ink spilled going back and forth between them and they're talking about how, like, they want different things because she wants a relationship and he only does one night stands. She doesn't want to do a one night stand. But they're obviously attracted to each other and they also keep ending up in each other's orbit. [00:30:14] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:15] Speaker B: And he is. He's aggressive about it. [00:30:19] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. [00:30:20] Speaker B: But something that I think the book did really well was writing the line of how his pursuit of her would be perceived. He's a real study in dobbler Dahmer, which for anyone who didn't watch How I Met yout Mother Me is a theory that they have on the show that Gran. [00:30:41] Speaker A: That I'm sure is not problematic in any way because everything about that show has aged so well. [00:30:46] Speaker B: Listen. Yes, but it's a theory that grand romantic gestures are only perceived as romantic if both parties are mutually interested. [00:30:57] Speaker A: I mean. Yes, obviously. Yeah. [00:30:58] Speaker B: So because Lily is interested, she perceives his behavior as romantic. Whereas, you know, while you're reading the book, you might be like, oh, that's a little. Yeah, that's a lot, girl. That's a lot. [00:31:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:12] Speaker B: And what interested me was that I was reading the book already knowing that Ryle would wind up being abusive. So I really had to sit and think about whether or not I would catch all of the red flags if I didn't know that. And honestly, I don't know. I'm not sure. His pursuit of her is definitely aggressive at times, but it's also pretty in line with the standing tradition of romance stories. Like, there's a scene where he knocks on every door in her apartment building because he knows which building she lives in, but he doesn't know the unit. And, yeah, like, I read that as creepy because I knew that he ended up being a creep. But romantic comedies are rife with that type of behavior. If you frame it slightly differently and have him be a slightly different character. [00:32:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:08] Speaker B: Suddenly it's romantic. [00:32:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:11] Speaker B: And if I didn't know that Ryle would ultimately be an abusive asshole, I probably would have just read it as a genre trop. [00:32:18] Speaker A: Yeah. No, I agree. And that's why I said I thought the movie. Well, then, in that sense, I think the movie captures that because I think the movie does a pretty good job. Like, I also knew, watching the movie that he. Especially as we started going, I was like, I was figuring out. Okay, I. I didn't know the specifics of any of the story, but like I said, after the scene where he's introduced and he, like, kicks the tear and stuff, I was like, all right, he's gonna end up being abusive, but, like, we're clearly doing, like, is she gonna see the red flags kind of thing. [00:32:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:43] Speaker A: Here. Like, it became very, very clear very quickly to me what was going on there. But. So I knew that I knew where it was going. But I still thought the movie did a pretty good job of making you go, okay. But, like, I also understand, like, I get why she's not immediately, like, yeah, fuck you. Like, I understand. I thought the movie did a pretty good job of making it believable that she is. She sees the red flags. Like, it's not like, she doesn't. I think she does. And, like, you know, to some extent. But she also is attracted to him and finds him interesting and blah, blah, blah, he's a doctor. Like, there's a lot about him that, like, she. You know, it's a believable. Her seduction or, like, her being seduced by him is believable, I think. And I think it's one of those things that I. I do wonder if, like, because this movie has pretty negative reactions overall and not very good reviews here, I don't think it's, like, a great movie. I think it's, like, a fine movie. Like, an okay movie. It's got, like, a 65, 55 on rotten tomatoes, which is probably fair. Like, I. I don't know. If I'd give it much higher than a 6 or a 7 out of 10 or something. But, like, I think that some people that I've seen talk about this movie were, I think, unable to divorce themselves from the knowledge that what you talked about of I know this guy ends up being abusive. [00:34:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:06] Speaker A: And so everything they kind of view through that lens of already knowing that. And so it becomes obvious to them that Lily is stupid. And you know what I mean? Like, it becomes this thing of, like, girl, what are you doing? Obviously, this guy's abusive, but I think if you don't know that going in, [00:34:26] Speaker B: I don't think it's obvious that he's going to be abusive at all. [00:34:29] Speaker A: No, quite frankly, I agree completely. And like I said, there's clearly. And that's why I thought it was pretty impressive that the movie managed to kind of hit that line of like, I see the red flags, but I also. [00:34:42] Speaker B: And there are, you know, like, also, like, most of the red flags are things that are like. You find yourself asking. That could be a red flag. Yeah, but is it. Is it a red flag for this specific person? [00:34:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:57] Speaker B: Is it gonna be a red flag? [00:34:59] Speaker A: I have in. In a fit of rage, kicked a chair in my life. I have done that. I have slammed a door. I have never hit a person since I was in, like, second grade. You know what I mean? Like, I have never. And I never. I am maybe the least physically violent person I know. Like, I don't. This is not the thing I do, but I have slammed a door. I have thrown a thing in a fit of rage at some point in my life. And when you find out, oh, a kid died earlier that day that he was. You're like, okay, yeah, like, that's not the end of the world. Like, you know, it's not that outlandish or it's not necessarily a sign that he's like a. A rage raging, like, asshole that he kicked the chair and slammed the door. You know? So, like, it is, like I said, I thought it does an okay job. And again, that being said, there are definitely parts where you're like, okay, when he's like. When she's telling him no, no and no over, and he's, like, pushing past it at the party and stuff. There is a degree of, like, you know, but. But at the same time, he. He does at times at least pretend to respect her boundaries enough in ways that is. And I say. I say pretend. I don't even think that's fair, because I don't. I think I think he thinks he's a better person than he is. [00:36:12] Speaker B: Yes. [00:36:13] Speaker A: Which is true for most people. Every person, honestly, like, nobody thinks they're the villain for the most part. [00:36:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:18] Speaker A: But anyways. [00:36:20] Speaker B: But I also think that that is. I think that is a thing that a lot of people don't like in their fiction. Villains. [00:36:28] Speaker A: I would agree with that. [00:36:29] Speaker B: And in particularly, I have a note about this. We'll get to my final verdict. But, like, particularly in this type of story, I don't think people like. [00:36:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I understand why this movie has some of the reactions. It does. [00:36:46] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:36:47] Speaker A: I think we're. I don't know, we'll talk more about. We're getting way too into here. We have a lot more to get into this later. We have so many other sections where we're going to talk about, like, the depictions of domestic violence and the reactions and how she handles her relationship with him after it and all that. We'll get into all that later. We don't need to do it all right now. So. So we're just going to move right ahead for now. They start dating. She relents and they start dating. They've been together. Another thing this movie does, which I thought worked okay, was it doesn't really tell you how much time is passing. We just kind of jump through time and it's like, oh, it's been months maybe or whatever. And there's usually a way to tell based on either somebody's pregnancy or whatever, but we jump forward some amount of time. They've been dating for a little bit and she's going to get dinner with her mom at this restaurant called Root. And he comes and he invites himself. He invites himself. And at the restaurant it is revealed. Oh, surprise. Atlas, the guy, the homeless kid from high school works at the restaurant and he shows up and he's their waiter. What a twist. I wanted to know if that, like, twist reveal that Atlas works at that restaurant came from the book. [00:37:59] Speaker B: Yes. This plays out exactly the same. They're seated and then, surprise. The waiter is Atlas. [00:38:06] Speaker A: There you go. Yeah. So let's get to the burnt frittata scene. This is the first. This is the big. The first. The 15 minutes. Your whole life can change scene or whatever. And I wanted to know how closely the movie's version was to the book, because this is where I got a little. And then I'm trying to figure out how I want to talk about this because it's obviously gets revealed later what's going on. But when we first watch this the first time or when we watch this the first time, I wanted to know if it played out the same. Because what we see in the movie is he reaches into the oven to like grab the pan out of the oven and then burns his hand and yanks it back. [00:38:43] Speaker B: And. [00:38:44] Speaker A: And as like Lily is like walking up and his. As he's yanking his hand back, it like hits her accidentally. [00:38:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:51] Speaker A: And like she falls over, is like, ah. And then he like apologized and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, well, that, that's okay. Interesting, because then I was reading along, which I'll do often to make sure I'm not missing anything. I'll read along with the Wikipedia summary. [00:39:06] Speaker B: Yes. [00:39:06] Speaker A: And the Wikipedia summary. I don't read ahead, but I'll read along after things happen. And I, I read that section after and I was like, oh, it says that he slapped her. That's weird. Cause that's not what happened in the scene at all. I was like, is the Wikipedia. And we talked about before Wikipedia articles sometimes just wrong in what the summary says. [00:39:28] Speaker B: Yes, the summary is particularly bad. [00:39:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:30] Speaker B: Sometimes that for some reason. [00:39:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Every now and then you'll just get fully like made up things in the summary. Not fully made up, but just like inferences that the author like, or whatever. And I was wondering if that was what was going on here or whatever. I was like, that's weird because he did not slap her. Like he accidentally bumped her while whatever. And so I wanted to know if that played out similar in the book. Cause I was comparing it to the Wikipedia article. I have a parenthetical here that says, okay, wait, the unreliable narrator scene at the beginning is making more sense. Maybe that's what's going on here. I had that thought, like right after this scene. I was like, okay, maybe that's what's going on here. And then spoilers. It's revealed. That is what's going on here. But I wanted to know if the scene played out similarly. And I guess this could be where I ask, do we get the Rashomon style retellings that we get in the, the movie? [00:40:20] Speaker B: No. Okay. No to that question. The. So the scene is the same and yet different. We don't get the, the kind of self edited memories like Rashomon style. [00:40:35] Speaker A: That's what you're saying? [00:40:37] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the, the main thing that I'm saying no to. But I just, I. I'm gonna read the scene because I don't. Not even sure I can summarize it. And I think so there are three just like in the movie. There are three major abuse scenes in this book and I do think that the way they are written is pretty effective because they're written kind of confusingly. [00:41:08] Speaker A: Okay. Because I thought that was the movie does that too. They're edited kind of confusingly. Where it is hard to tell, but [00:41:14] Speaker B: it's hard to tell exactly. [00:41:17] Speaker A: Initially it's like looks more like accidents than anything else. [00:41:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, so it's a casserole in the book. It's not a frittata, to be fair. [00:41:28] Speaker A: It looks like a casserole in the movies. I don't know. [00:41:33] Speaker B: So I get dizzy all of a sudden from standing up too fast after having three glasses of wine. They house this wine, by the way. They just like they're swallowing glasses of wine whole. More on that in a minute. [00:41:47] Speaker A: Okay. [00:41:49] Speaker B: I grabbed the counter beside him to steady myself just as he reaches in to pull the burnt casserole out. Ryle, you need a shit. He yells. Potholder. The casserole falls from his hand and lands on the floor, shattering everywhere. I lift up my feet to avoid broken glass and mushroom chicken splatter. I start laughing as soon as I realize he didn't even think too to use a potholder Must be the wine. This is some seriously strong wine. He slams the oven shut and moves to the faucet, shoving his hand under the cold water, muttering curse words. I'm trying to suppress my laughter, but the wine and the ridiculousness of the last few seconds are making it hard. I look at the floor, at the mess we're about to have to clean up, and the laughter bursts from me. I'm still laughing as I lean over to get a look at Ryle's hand. I hope he didn't hurt it too bad. I'm instantly not laughing anymore. I'm on the floor, my hand pressed against the corner of my eye. In a matter of one second, Ryle's arm came out of nowhere and slammed against me, knocking me backward. There was enough force behind it to knock me off balance when I lost my footing. I hit my face on one of the cabinet door handles as I came down. Pain shoots from the corner of my eye right near my temple. And then I feel the weight. Heaviness follows and it presses down on every part of me. So much gravity pushing, pushing down on my emotions. Everything shatters. My tears, my heart, my laughter. My soul shattered like broken glass raining down around me. I wrap my arms over my head and try to wish away the last 10 seconds. God damn it, Lily, I hear him say. It's not funny. This hand is my career. I don't look up at him. His voice doesn't penetrate through my body this time. It's like it's stabbing me now, the sharpness of each of his words coming at me like swords. Then I feel him next to me, rubbing his goddamn hand on my neck, on my back, rubbing. Lily, he says, oh, my God, Lily. He tried to pull my arm from my head but refused to budge. And it just kind of goes on like that. [00:43:48] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it's very clear that he hits her in that, like. [00:43:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:51] Speaker A: Like, the way that's. Yeah, yeah. So it's definitely not doing, like a. You aren't sure what's going on. Like, it's very clear. And especially her reaction about, like, my soul shattering stuff. Like, it's. I think it's very clear that, like, oh, he just hit her there. So they definitely add that layer, like you said, of. [00:44:05] Speaker B: Of [00:44:08] Speaker A: kind of fake memory or, you know, presenting it differently initially and then revealing that it was actually abuse later or whatever. It probably maybe was a good idea to remove the drinking. So. [00:44:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:27] Speaker A: What. [00:44:28] Speaker B: One of the things in this that I found really interesting or maybe odd, I don't know, is that I think all of the instances of him, like, abusing her are preceded by him drinking. [00:44:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Which I think is fair. I think that. Because that's obviously a very real. [00:44:50] Speaker B: Yes, that's a very. But also, like, at no point in this book does anybody ever like, hey, man, maybe you shouldn't drink. [00:44:59] Speaker A: Oh, nobody ever talks about that. [00:45:01] Speaker B: Nobody ever talks about it. [00:45:02] Speaker A: Yeah. All right. Yeah, I. I was gonna say, I think it also just helps clarify by removing the fact that they're, like, both intoxicated. I mean, they are drinking wine in that scene, I think, in the movie, but they're not. You know, there's no implication that they're, [00:45:17] Speaker B: like, drunk or mimosa or something like that. [00:45:20] Speaker A: So I. I do think that removing the. The idea of them, like, being drunk in those scenes helps. I think you can do a version where that is the case, and I think it would. Because that's obviously, like I said, a very real. And it's a very real way that that sort of abuse happens a lot. And so I think addressing that could make sense. And that's obviously, I think, what the book is going for, and obviously probably written from personal experience with her dad or whatever. But I think removing that simplifies the thematic messaging by having it. By allowing the audience to focus on her kind of journey of self. Discovery of like realizing what's going on and kind of the abusive nature of her relationship. Whereas if it was muddied by her having been drunk all the time during all of that, I just. I think it might have been a lot harder to present that. [00:46:17] Speaker B: It's just the first time where she's been drinking. But also I think, if I'm remembering correctly, I think then after this first instance she kind of uses the fact that she had been drinking as a way to kind of excuse like, which I think maybe I didn't understand quite. Like maybe I misinterpreted what happened or I don't remember. Right. Because I was drinking. [00:46:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Maybe that would have been an interesting way to. More effectively. Maybe not more effectively. Cause I think it works fine in the movie, but to have a more in universe kind of explanation for the. But I don't think you need that. So I think maybe that's the other thing is that I think adding the drinking adds this layer of like. Because I was like. What I was about to say was that I think you could. That that could add a layer of like explanation for the. Like it presenting it as an accident the first time. And as what you said of like her memories of the event, what we're seeing in the film is her interpretation memories of the event that. Where she is manipulating it into a place where her partner is not abusive. Yeah, right. [00:47:23] Speaker B: Where her psyche can deal with it. [00:47:24] Speaker A: Yes, where her psyche can deal with it because her partner's not abusive. It was just an accident. It was just a mistake, whatever. I think you could add the alcohol to that as like a way. As like a. An in universe explanation for why those memories maybe got a little muddled and why she thought that. But I also think there's an element of not putting that in there and having it just be that because you don't need that for somebody to create. You know what I mean? And so I think maybe removing the alcohol makes it a more universal or a more universalizable experience potentially. You know what I mean? [00:47:59] Speaker B: I don't know. I think it. I think that's an interesting question because part of me does think that more people would readily accept alcohol as a reason why you would not remember something correctly then would accept that people just edit their memories. Because I think. [00:48:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. [00:48:20] Speaker B: Everybody edits their memories. Yeah, yeah, everybody does that. But I think a lot of people are probably not aware. [00:48:26] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah, I agree. Which is kind of what I'm saying, which is that I think it's Almost a stronger point by having it. Not by having alcohol. Not really be a factor in these scenes. I think it makes a more impactful point because you're like, oh, that can happen. Like everybody that like alcohol. What you were just saying that everybody understands that if you're drinking, your memories get muddled. But the point the movie is making is it doesn't. You don't have to have been drunk for your brain to change your perception of these events into something that it's easier for your brain to deal with. You know what I mean? [00:49:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:04] Speaker A: And so I think actually removing the fact that they were drinking or whatever makes sense. That reveal that she was editing her memories a more impactful moment than it would be had we known she was, like, drunk during those scenes. You know what I mean? [00:49:19] Speaker B: No, Yeah. I get what you're saying. [00:49:20] Speaker A: I think we're agreeing. [00:49:21] Speaker B: No, I think we are agreeing. What I'm saying is that I think there is a certain type of person who would then watch that scene and like, get to the end of the movie and insist that it was not realistic. Oh, that she would be editing her memories. [00:49:42] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. [00:49:43] Speaker B: Because nobody does that. [00:49:44] Speaker A: Yeah, sure, maybe. Yeah. Well, they're. Oh, definitely. Yes. There would definitely be people. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I've never. I've not heard that criticism of the film. I have not. [00:49:54] Speaker B: I haven't either. I had no idea that this was a. I didn't know element in the film. [00:49:58] Speaker A: And so I've never heard that criticism of the film. But, yeah, yeah, definitely would be people that did that. But I don't think you would fix it. Those people. [00:50:06] Speaker B: I don't think. [00:50:07] Speaker A: I don't think anything. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. So then we cut to a few days later, they are going. Or the next day or whatever, they're going out to dinner with Alyssa and her husband, Marcus, or whatever his name. [00:50:24] Speaker B: Marshall. [00:50:24] Speaker A: Marshall. And they're going to Root, which is not where she wanted to go. [00:50:28] Speaker B: Yeah, she doesn't want to go there. She doesn't want to run into Atlas again. [00:50:32] Speaker A: But some last minute change of plans. It's where they're going. And so they end up there. And while they're there, she obviously still. She has a bruise on her eye from when Ryle hit her. And Ryle has a bandaged hand from burning his hand and then hitting her. And the Atlas sees this and he, like, freaks out. And they have this confrontation. He first has a confrontation with Lily. He's like, you gotta leave her or leave him. He's clearly Abusive or whatever. And she's like, no, it was a mistake. It was an accident, blah, blah, blah. And then Ryle shows up, and Atlas immediately tries to fight him, throws him up against the wall and is like, I will beat you to death, or whatever. So, like, oh, great. So Atlas is also a hothead. And I wanted to know if that came from the book. Not that he was wrong necessarily, just that immediately. [00:51:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:22] Speaker A: Throwing a guy against the wall based on no information. Like, literally no information. You have a bruised face and a hurt hand. It could very easily have been completely unrelated. [00:51:34] Speaker B: It could have happened exactly how? Her edited memory. [00:51:37] Speaker A: Yes, it very easily could have happened as her, and now it didn't. And so he ends up being justified. [00:51:42] Speaker B: Right, but correct. [00:51:44] Speaker A: He's correct. But in that moment, there was no reason for. So you're like, okay, so this guy's also kind of a hothead. Like the movie. Never. That's the thing that the movie. That was maybe my biggest criticism of, like, one of my bigger criticisms of the movie is that I think and kind of thematically, what the movie's doing is that it. It. The whole plot line around Atlas felt a little paternalistic to me. And we'll talk about more about that later. But. And it celebrates his, like, manly rage. Right, but it does. It's very. You know, obviously it's bad that I just don't think it's. It correctly identifies that him throwing that guy, throwing Ryle against the wall and threatening to shove his hand up his. Down his throat or whatever is, like, also bad. Like, I don't think the movie realizes that. Or at least it doesn't seem like it necessarily. And so I wanted to know if that came from the book. [00:52:35] Speaker B: That does come from the book. It plays out almost exactly the same as it does in the movie. I don't think the book also realizes that, although I was. I. I skimmed the. Because the book has a se. [00:52:49] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. [00:52:51] Speaker B: And I think, if I'm remembering right, the sequel was, like, a few years later. [00:52:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. [00:52:56] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think I'm not gonna go look and verify this, but I'm pretty sure I saw something in the summary of the sequel about Atlas, like, refusing to fight Ryle. So maybe in the intervening years, Colleen Hoover was like, maybe I shouldn't have. [00:53:12] Speaker A: Maybe I shouldn't make the good guy, like, also immediately violent, angry guy. Yeah, that's fair. Okay. I could see. Yeah. Again, it's not even that. But to be fair, on the same side, on the other thing, the. What the book and movie at least I'll speak for the movie. What the movie at least tries to do is everybody's a complicated, messy person. [00:53:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:35] Speaker A: All have their own issues. And so like even Atlas isn't a perfect per. Like I don't think it. But it does feel like the movie doesn't ever interrogate that from him at all. And it's just like, yeah, that's fine. [00:53:47] Speaker B: I mean, nor does the book. [00:53:48] Speaker A: Yeah. It just feels like the movie goes out. [00:53:49] Speaker B: It's fine. Cause he's being protective. [00:53:51] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. Yes, exactly. Which again, we'll get into more later. It's why I kind of felt like it feels a little paternalistic at times. It's just, eh. My next question is, during that exact same scene is right after that Ryle, after he gets thrown against the wall, says, this is Atlas. And then he says, the homeless boy you wasted your virginity on. And I wanted to know if that line came from the book, because that specific line was probably the biggest red flag of anything. [00:54:21] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:54:21] Speaker A: Movie from Ryle, like, obviously he hit her already. But in our. In the view of the movie, it looks like it looked like it was an accident. It's like. Whereas that line we get presented as is. I'm like, okay, well that. That guy's an asshole. Yeah. [00:54:36] Speaker B: So in the book he says, this is Atlas, the homeless boy you pity. And I don't know if one is necessarily better than the other. [00:54:45] Speaker A: That one's better. [00:54:46] Speaker B: They have different vibes. [00:54:48] Speaker A: They have very different vibes. That's a way less so saying this, the homeless boy you pity. It's still a mean thing. But he is throwing that at. He is the person who's being denigrated. There is more Atlas than Lily. [00:55:02] Speaker B: True. [00:55:03] Speaker A: Whereas his version, the homeless boy you wasted your virginity on is attacking her. And specifically from a very patriarchal, gross, valuing virginity way that you pity this guy is more like, he's a loser. Why would you sleep with him? Those are different. You know what I mean? Like that's. I think the movie's version is way more of a red flag. It's still not good in the book, but it's way less like revealing of some deep seated like misogyny that I think the line in the movie is revealing of. So in response to that, this is later, we. We cut forward quite a bit. At some point, Atlas comes and visits Lily at the flower shop. [00:55:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:47] Speaker A: After all this has kind of blown over like a week or a couple weeks later or whatever. It's maybe even longer than that it's been a while. [00:55:52] Speaker B: I think in the book it's like the next day. [00:55:54] Speaker A: But I just says in the movie, like, I came the next day, but she wasn't there. [00:55:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know how long it's supposed to have been in the. [00:56:00] Speaker A: But it's been a while. Because he. She's like, why? You know, it's been. She might even say months or weeks. She says. She says it's been a while since the thing. Like, why are you here? Or whatever. And during that, he, like, gives her. I think this is where he gives her. [00:56:14] Speaker B: Yeah, he gives her his phone number [00:56:15] Speaker A: and says, if you ever need anything, call me, or whatever. [00:56:17] Speaker B: He hides it in her phone case, which is important later. [00:56:20] Speaker A: Yeah. And as he's leaving, she says to him, hey, you weren't. I didn't waste my virginity on you or something. Like, she's replying, responding to what Ryle said to him. She said, I didn't waste. It wasn't a waste. Or something like that. And he turns around and says, I know, I was there. And I was like, you know what? That's a good line. Good response. It's a solid repartee. And I wanted to know if that line came from the book. [00:56:50] Speaker B: That is from the book. But I do think that it's better as a response to it wasn't a pity fuck than it is to it wasn't a waste. [00:56:58] Speaker A: I don't know. I could go either way on that. I mean, it works both ways. Yeah, it works both ways. But to me, it almost is better in the movie because again, here. Here's why. Because. Well, I don't know. Here's why. It goes back to what I was saying before. It wasn't a pity fuck, him saying, or, you know, him accusers like, oh, it was a pity fuck, him saying. And her saying it wasn't a pity fuck, him being like, I know I was there feels a little more like, I know. Like, it's more about redeeming himself. Whereas in the movie, when she's like, hey, it wasn't a waste having sex with you wasn't a waste of my virginity or whatever he says, I know I was there to me implies, like, I guess they're the same. I don't know. But what I was gonna say is that that felt. Again, he's almost more defending her in that scene by saying that, then he is defending himself, whereas the pity fuck thing feels more like he's defending himself with that line. Does that make any sense? [00:58:01] Speaker B: I don't know, I mean, it makes sense. I definitely see what you're saying. I'm talking less about, like, the unspoken meaning and more about, like, just the. The literal way that the words make sense together. [00:58:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's fair. Yeah. You're not wrong. Yeah. So then we cut forward quite a little bit more. Alyssa's giving birth now. It's been months. She's been pregnant for a while. Again, the movie doesn't explain how much time has passed. We just. It does marks it by again, by Alyssa giving birth is like, kind of how we keep track of time for a big chunk of the movie or, like, how pregnant she is and stuff. But we're in the hospital room and she is giving birth. And while they're. Or she's already given birth, they're sitting around all, like, meeting and hanging out with the baby. And while they're sitting there, somebody makes an offhand comment about them getting married. And Ryle says, like, oh, I would marry you tonight if she wanted me to. And she jokingly responds, oh, we'll do it, or something like that. I don't know. And he proposes in the hospital while holding his niece. And I wanted to know if they came from the book. [00:59:10] Speaker B: No. Alyssa has the baby much later in the book, like, right before the final assault. That's Lily's breaking point. And I'm honestly. But he, like, he does propose to her. They decide to get married. I'm honestly not sure I would call it a proposal. Because what happens in the book is that Lily and Alyssa are talking, and Lily tells Alyssa that she would marry Ryle if he asked her. And he overhears this and comes into the room and says, I would marry the hell out of you. And then they decide to elope. [00:59:43] Speaker A: Okay. [00:59:44] Speaker B: I don't really have big feelings about this change. I understand the movie wanting it to feel more like an actual proposal. [00:59:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:51] Speaker B: So, like, whatever. [00:59:52] Speaker A: Yeah, it's fine. So then cut forward a little bit more. They get married, they elope, and we jump forward. I don't know how long it's been at this point since their wedding or whatever. Months, I'm not sure. But at one point, he finds Atlas's phone number in her phone. He drops her phone, and the. The case falls off. And he finds the slip of paper with his phone number on it, calls it, realizes it's Atlas, and he freaks out. And this is the scene where we see him kind of push her down the stairs. And this is where I wrote again, it looked more like he kind of just Fell. But this time it was shot. And I thought, pretty clever. It shot and edited a little more unclearly than the first one was. I was less sure that it was an accident this time than I was watching the first one. You know what I mean? The second, the frittata scene, you're like, that's very clearly an accident. This time you're like, it's kind of weird looking, but it looks like an accident. Which, again, I thought was very clearly intentional choice. And I thought it was relatively compelling. And then I wanted to know, like, or I guess if the falling down, pushing her down the stairs came from the book. [01:00:57] Speaker B: Yeah, all of that plays out very similarly. The main difference in the book is that she initially tries to insist that he pushed her. Like, when she, like, comes to. Yeah. And he keeps insisting that she didn't. He's like, no, you fell. I tried to catch you. You fell, you fell. Until she gets confused about what actually happened and is like, maybe I did fall. I don't know. My head hurts. [01:01:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And the movie does a similar thing. Like, he very clearly gas, like, just gaslights her. When she comes to, he's, like, treating her and he's like, you fell, you fell. He says it over and over and over again. You felt like. And it. Yeah, he's very clearly, like, gaslighting her into believing that. But you're right. She doesn't say, like, oh, you pushed me, or anything like that. She doesn't seem to know what happened, which I think works fine. [01:01:42] Speaker B: Yeah, it works fine. [01:01:42] Speaker A: It's a similar idea and works similarly. Then we get to the big abuse scene, which is that Ryle finds a article in a magazine about Root Atlas's restaurant that reveals that it's named in memory or because of Lily, basically, some girl he used to know that it talks about the roots and stuff, because. And then we saw that scene earlier in the movie where she's like, the roots, the most important part of the plant. And I was like, well, all of it's pretty important. But, like, I guess I get what you're saying. But, like, if you just had roots and none of the rest of it, like, I don't know, is it the most important? Maybe it's like, you have to have them. That's true. But you also have to have the leaves. So, like, I don't know. Whatever. I guess it depends on the type of plant. Maybe. What? I'm just saying, she's a teenager. It doesn't matter. It's fine. Like I said, I get what she's saying. But anyways, he writes about that, and that's why he named his restaurant Root. He also reveals that he carved this little wooden heart thing. [01:02:42] Speaker B: Yes. Which we've seen. [01:02:43] Speaker A: Which we've seen that Lily has. But she also has a tattoo of it on her collarbone that Ryle has asked her about several times. Like, hey, what's that tattoo? What does it mean? And she's always like, oh, it's just nothing. I just got it whenever. By the way, relationship tip for people. If you feel like you need to lie about a thing like that, you should fix that. [01:03:06] Speaker B: That's bad. [01:03:06] Speaker A: It's either bad. It's either an indictment of something about you or your partner. One of the two. It's. That's better. Something bad there. If somebody asks you, hey, what does that tattoo mean? Your partner, who you are married to says, hey, what does your tattoo mean? And you got to go, it's just. I don't know. Nothing. It's just, like, a thing from when I was a kid. No, don't do that. Talk about it. Figure it out. Either explain it or. Or if you feel like you can't explain it, that means your partner is not a safe person and you should not be in a relationship with them. One of the two, because. Yeah. The correct response in that scene when he goes, hey, what's your tattoo? Is. Goes, hey. Oh, it was the boy that I had a crush on that I slept with when I was in high school. It was our thing together. He made me this little thing. I got a tattoo. [01:03:49] Speaker B: I got a tattoo, like, when I was very young, when I was 16. [01:03:53] Speaker A: But you can just explain it. And if you're worried that's gonna make your partner freak out, that's bad, and you should not be with that person. But anyway, so she has never explained it, and he realizes now what it is and puts it all together that Atlas was this boy with the tattoo and all that, blah, blah. So he freaks out, and he essentially just tries to rape her as, like, revenge. Because he's like, no, you're. I can't remember what he keeps saying, but. But he, like, holds her down, and I'm not gonna get too specific, but he bites her. He, like, bites that. Which we don't really see. I didn't realize until after that he did that. [01:04:26] Speaker B: We see, like, we see the bite marks after. [01:04:28] Speaker A: I didn't realize he was doing that during the scene. Yeah, I thought he was. Yeah, I didn't. Yeah. Which I guess makes sense. I don't know how you would show that in a way that was not super cheesy in the moment. You know what I mean? Yeah. But I didn't realize that had happened in the moment. Does that all happen like that? And my other note that I wanted to add on this is I actually felt like. I thought, thought Beldoni overall was not amazing in this movie. I think his energy works for the role. I'll say that. I'll just leave it at that. But overall, I didn't love his performance at different times. Yeah, same Blake Lively. I thought she's not amazing all the time. But in this scene in particular, both of them I thought were very good. And in particular, I thought Blake was like, very good in this scene in a way that I thought was very upsetting. I thought watching this scene was. The way she's pleading with them is very upsetting and very effective. And I wanted to know if that scene played out similarly in the book. [01:05:23] Speaker B: Okay, so there's quite a few differences here. I'm going to try to run through all of it. The movie simplifies the lead up to this, which I ultimately think was a good choice. And the book, the restaurant is called BIB or perhaps bib. I'm not really sure if it's supposed to be spoken as an acronym or not, but it's. Which has revealed in the article that this stands for Better in Boston, which was an inside joke between Atlas and Lily, as well as the slogan on a Boston, like, refrigerator magnet that Atlas gave to Lily when they were younger, which she still has. [01:06:07] Speaker A: Yeah, we do hear the him say everything's better in Boston. They do talk about. [01:06:11] Speaker B: They do talk about that. So Ryle reads the article and then he goes and reads Lily's old journal, which is how he verifies that the magnet was from Atlas, as well as how he makes the connection with the heart tattoo. [01:06:27] Speaker A: Okay. [01:06:28] Speaker B: I think that getting rid of the magnet and focusing on the carved heart and the tattoo was a good choice. [01:06:34] Speaker A: Yeah, you don't need both. [01:06:35] Speaker B: Yeah, you don't need both. The book's version, it's a little less streamlined, especially considering that the carved heart is also in the book, but then basically vanishes from the narrative in favor of the magnet. I think the heart is. It's a better symbol. [01:06:50] Speaker A: It's a better symbol. It's more. It's less cheesy. It's just more like kind of a timeless thing. Like it doesn't feel so specific. Yeah, it's a better choice. [01:06:59] Speaker B: I get why the movie dropped him reading her journal since that wasn't really a big part of the movie. We just kind of see her writing [01:07:06] Speaker A: it at once, getting. And then. Yeah. [01:07:08] Speaker B: But I found that part of the book to be such a deep betrayal while I was reading it that I missed it. I am a journaler. Ish. [01:07:20] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. [01:07:22] Speaker B: If I were to come home and you had read my old journals without my permission, I would feel so deeply betrayed by that. [01:07:31] Speaker A: Yeah, obviously. [01:07:34] Speaker B: And it's, like, a small thing in the context of the entire overall scene, but for me, personally, that was such a deep betrayal moment. [01:07:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:44] Speaker B: The movie actually also depicts the assault less violently in the book. [01:07:49] Speaker A: Yeah. It's not super. I mean, it's pretty violent. [01:07:51] Speaker B: It's pretty violent. So in the book, he slams his head against hers and she's, like, bleeding profusely. And the movie also skips over how she gets away from him. [01:08:01] Speaker A: She kind of pushes him. Him. [01:08:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And we, like. And we, like, cut to her in the car. [01:08:06] Speaker A: Yeah. She just, like, is outside. [01:08:08] Speaker B: Yeah. But in the book, she has to, like, wait for him to fall asleep and then wiggle out from under him. And she's creeping around the apartment looking for her phone and keys so that she can leave, but she can't find her keys. And it's implied that he may have hidden them. And then she has to call Atlas [01:08:27] Speaker A: to pick her up when she says she waits for him to fall asleep. I. I'm gonna ask an unfortunately unfortunate question. Does he actually rape her in the book? [01:08:35] Speaker B: Yeah, it's implied. [01:08:36] Speaker A: Okay. Because in the movie, it's very explicitly stated that he does not. [01:08:40] Speaker B: When. When they get to the hospital. She insists that he didn't. [01:08:44] Speaker A: In the book. [01:08:44] Speaker B: In the book. [01:08:45] Speaker A: Because she does in the movie, too. But also from what we see in the movie, it would appear that. That. That didn't. He didn't actually. Like, they're both fully clothed still, I think, and everything in the. In the movie. [01:08:56] Speaker B: But I. And maybe I read it wrong. [01:08:58] Speaker A: You might not. [01:08:59] Speaker B: But to me, in the book, it felt very clear that, yeah, he did. [01:09:03] Speaker A: Well, I mean. Yeah. I mean, obviously with that I asked because, like, if he falls asleep on, like. Because that doesn't track with, like. I was trying to figure out how he. She could have waited so long that he fall asleep. But also, he didn't, like, rape her because, like, in the movie, like I said, it's. He's, like, attacking her, and then eventually she's able to just, like, force him off of her and run out of the apartment. [01:09:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:26] Speaker A: And whereas in the book, it wouldn't make much sense. Or in which. In the book that, like. Because we see her force him off before he's able to actually, like, rape her. So you're like, okay. So when she tells the doctor later that he didn't rape her, you're like, okay, yeah, we saw that. That didn't happen. Whereas in the book, if she waited for him to fall asleep, I'm like, well, how? Like something, like, did he just stop? Like, you know what I mean? Like, we would have had, like, he would. Assuming that it's the same scene. [01:09:53] Speaker B: He was drinking, so maybe the idea is that he, like, passed out. [01:09:57] Speaker A: Could be. Yeah. [01:09:58] Speaker B: But I definitely read it as, like, he did rape her. [01:10:03] Speaker A: I wonder. And if that's the case, then that's an interesting choice by the movie to remove that because I think it maybe makes the end of the movie more palatable. [01:10:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:13] Speaker A: Like, the relationship from here to the end of the movie feels maybe a little more. A little. Again, it's more palatable if. If he didn't actually, like, actually rape her. Now, I don't know. We're splitting hairs there, but it is. With what he did do. Like, it's not like that what he did do is, like, fine or whatever, but it is, you know, maybe there they thought that there was an element of, like, we need him to be at least a little bit less despicable maybe for this ending to work potentially. I don't know. We'll talk more about that here shortly. But at the hospital line that I wanted to ask about is while she's waiting in the hospital to get checked out by the doctor, she's sitting there with Atlas, and she says to him, essentially something along the lines of, like, I'm becoming my mom, or I turned into my mom, despite, you know, like, I. I promised I'd never become my mom, and I am. Or something like that, alluding to the fact that her mom was in an abusive relationship. And I could see how that would read and come across a little Victim Blamey. Yeah, I. I think it's a very real. And this is where it gets messy, where I think it's a very real reaction for a human to have about, like, judging their mom for being in a relationship like that and. And not like, you know, and that sort of thing. But I also could see that, yeah, it comes across a little, like, victim blame me of, like. Well, it's. She let that happen, or she. You know what I mean? It just feels a little like it's. It feels like it a little bit Puts the onus on the abused person to have. Not be a victim, basically, in a way that I could understand people being like, eh. [01:12:00] Speaker B: So this exact line isn't in the book. But Lily thinks something very similar to herself after finding out that she's pregnant at the hospital. Spoilers for your next question. But she's sitting there and she thinks to herself, I did this to myself. I allowed this to happen to me. I am my mother. And the idea that she's falling into the same pattern as her mother is something that Lily thinks about a lot, especially after this last assault where she's trying to figure out, what do I do now? And it's complicated. [01:12:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:12:45] Speaker B: That's. That's. [01:12:46] Speaker A: That's my feelings about. [01:12:47] Speaker B: And I do think that, like, part of what Colleen Hoover is doing with Lily and the way that she perceives her mother is kind of showing that, like, when you're on the outside looking in, it's easy to choose. It's really easy to think, like, I would never allow that. I would never do that. I would react differently. But. And yet. [01:13:16] Speaker A: Yeah, it's kind of ironic because I think that's also the issue. A lot of people engaging with the book and movie have. [01:13:24] Speaker B: Yes. [01:13:24] Speaker A: Is they watch it and go, oh, I would never. [01:13:27] Speaker B: Would you? [01:13:27] Speaker A: And that's the thing. And that's the thing that I think is really important. That really, like. And it's why that I think the movie is kind of good. And I actually like elements of the movie is because I think it does kind of force you to. To sit with, like, difficult questions like that. [01:13:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:42] Speaker A: About, like, because it is easy to look at her and be like, come on. Like, this is obviously a rift. Like, you should have let. You should have figured this. Like, he pushed you down the stairs. Like, what are. You know. [01:13:50] Speaker B: But the hard. [01:13:51] Speaker A: Yes. [01:13:51] Speaker B: Horrible, ugly truth. [01:13:53] Speaker A: Yep. [01:13:54] Speaker B: Is that you don't know. You don't know how you're gonna respond to that situation unless you are, unfortunately, in it. [01:14:02] Speaker A: 100. It's one of my least fav. Favorite things about the Internet and people generally is watching people see other people in situations and going, well, obviously, I would never do that. And it's. I do it. Everybody does it to some extent. But I try. I try to be really, really conscious of the fact that you genuinely do not know what you would do to. In a situation like that, especially when you see the way. Which is why I think the movie's kind of good. The way it builds up, the way it starts small and it. You know, like, it I think that it is a pretty, like, it's a very intentional way that this story of abuse is told that is there to lead you down the path, to make you ask, interrogate yourself. The way we're talking about right now, that is like, the whole point, I think, of the book in the movie, and I think it does a pretty good job of it. But, yeah, it drives me crazy when people refuse to at least try to put yourself in that other. It's just empathy. Is it really what it comes down to? It's just a lack of empathy. Even people who are very empathetic, I think it can be very easy to lack empathy in certain situations, even though you. I don't know. It's hard to explain, but. Yeah, I, Yeah, I agree completely. I, I think that that idea of, like. Well, I don't know. I, I don't know where it's gonna go. I think it. I think it does. Like I said, I think it's a pretty compelling job of kind of addressing that and, and holding that mirror up to people and asking you to think about it. [01:15:48] Speaker B: And I, I. If I may get personal for a moment, you can skip this. The listeners, not you. But, like, I do. [01:16:03] Speaker A: Should I put a time cut? Like a. Is it when you say when you should skip this? What do you. [01:16:08] Speaker B: If you. Well, where. This is already a pretty triggering. [01:16:11] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess that's what I was wondering. Is there a trigger warning specifically, you want to. I don't know. [01:16:17] Speaker B: I guess not. I don't know. So I, I grew up in an abusive home, and I really, really like to think that if I were to wind up in a similar situation, that I would just leave at the first sign of any trouble. But then also, if I really, really think about it, like, if you were to suddenly turn into an abusive asshole, just getting up and leaving would require abandoning my entire life. [01:16:58] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:16:59] Speaker B: My whole life. Obviously, I would have to try to get the cats out. [01:17:05] Speaker A: Right. [01:17:05] Speaker B: Yeah. I would have to leave my job. I would have to move. I, you know, and I think when we're sitting and we're watching somebody else go through something, it's really easy to make a judgment call. But you don't actually know. [01:17:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:23] Speaker B: You don't know what you would do, and you don't know what it would do to your life. [01:17:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. No, I agree completely. I think that is the movie's greatest success is forcing, hopefully forcing people to consider stuff like that to some extent. And, yeah, I think that's something that everybody, hopefully. Can I Think everybody should try to be better about is really like, trying to put yourself in other people's shoes, but not just put yourself in other shoes and go, well, this is what the decision I would make in their shoes to really think about. Like, am I maybe thinking this is a simpler answer than. Because obviously it's a simple answer from the outside died. Yeah, obviously. And. And it's not like we're saying she's right to stay. Like, obviously the correct response is, you should leave. Like, that is the appropriate response. Like, that is what she should do. But. But understanding how it happens and why it happens and why victims don't, and, you know, it. I think, yeah, it's. There's a lot going on there that I think this. This story at least grapples with in a way that is interesting, if not, like, perfect, which obviously, how could it be? It's a story written by one person. Like, it's. You know, they're doing their best with it. I. But I do. Yeah, I think it's. I don't know. Yeah. I don't have anything else to say about it right now. We have more to talk about later, so I'm sure we'll get to more of it. But my next question is, does the doctor at the hospital just, like, reveal to Lily that she's pregnant? Because she has no idea. And the doctor's like, oh, by the way, we don't do X rays and on pregnant people. And she's like, what? [01:19:03] Speaker B: Yeah, this plays out pretty similarly. The main difference is that they. They want to give her a CT scan to make sure she doesn't have a concussion because he slammed his skull into hers. [01:19:14] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:19:15] Speaker B: And I think the idea is that the doctor assumes she already knows that she's pregnant. [01:19:19] Speaker A: I. Yes, I figured that was the case. The doctor probably should not assume that she's not. Like, I don't know how early she is, but she's not showing at all. You know? [01:19:27] Speaker B: Like, I think, why would you assume [01:19:29] Speaker A: that as a doctor? [01:19:30] Speaker B: But I don't remember what it was, [01:19:32] Speaker A: but it was like, that was crazy to me. [01:19:34] Speaker B: It was, like, far along enough, but, like, not far along enough that she would, like, she's, like, about to. [01:19:41] Speaker A: It's far along enough that she. That you would know. [01:19:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:19:45] Speaker A: But not that this show like that. Normally you should. You would know, probably. But that she just doesn't in the sense. Okay, it's fair. But, yeah, I thought it was wild that the doctor just assumes she's aware. She's. That has to be Protocol. Right. That if you, if you don't have on a chart for a patient, they are pregnant. [01:20:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:02] Speaker A: And you know that ahead of time, if you go, oh, they're pregnant. You don't just come in and go, well, by the way, you're pregnant. Like, there's gotta be some sort of protocol. Right? [01:20:09] Speaker B: Well, particularly in an instance of obvious domestic violence. Yeah. [01:20:14] Speaker A: Oh, my God. Even more so. Yeah. [01:20:15] Speaker B: Like. And I don't even know what the protocol for that would be. [01:20:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:20:20] Speaker B: Because, like, if it were me, I'd be like, hey, girl. [01:20:24] Speaker A: So. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, it's. Yeah, that's an even better point. Especially when she's there because of domestic violence. [01:20:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:31] Speaker A: Just be like, oh, like, obviously you know you're pregnant, so let's get like, you can't give me an X ray because obviously you're pregnant. But it's like, why would you. That's crazy to me. [01:20:40] Speaker B: Insane. [01:20:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:20:41] Speaker B: Some doctor, please tell us how insane that is. [01:20:44] Speaker A: I, I, like I said maybe. It's not maybe, but that felt absurd to me that she just, the doctor's just like, just says it. Like, she obviously knows. It's like, okay. I was wondering if abortion was ever gonna come up or be mentioned as an option. It is, briefly. Which I was kind of. I don't know if I was surprised. I couldn't decide. I didn't know because I don't know anything about Colleen Hoover and, like, the politics. [01:21:06] Speaker B: I really don't either. [01:21:07] Speaker A: I don't know. And like, the movie is, like, has vaguely. It doesn't really have. I don't say it as progressive politics, but, like, the people in it are mostly progressive. Ish people to some extent. And so I was like, they're not. Not. It's not a pro life movie. Like, I didn't think it was going to be a pro life movie, so I thought it at least might come up. But it is kind of like. So anyways, in the movie, what happens is when they're hanging out, she goes back and stays at Atlas's apartment. [01:21:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:21:34] Speaker A: They're, like, talking about it and she's talking about, like, what she's gonna do. And he says, well, if you do decide to keep it. I was like, okay. So I wanted to know if that line was in the book because he. I was like, oh, abortion is at least brought up and it was never mentioned again. Like, it literally never. That. That one sentence is the only mention of it. She doesn't even say no. Like, she doesn't Even say, actually, no, I'm gonna keep it. Like, there. It's just he offers the option. He's like. Mentions like, oh, you know, if you're gonna keep it. And then we just never talk about it again. It's like, yes, she's gonna keep the baby. Okay. [01:22:06] Speaker B: I don't think the idea of getting an abortion is even alluded to in the book, like, at all. So the props to the movie for that, I guess. [01:22:14] Speaker A: Yeah. It's at least a little bit there or something. But I was like, yeah. And that. Yeah, that's. The politics of the story are messy enough that it wouldn't surprise me if Colleen Hoover was, like, pro life to some varying degree or something like that, because that's also maybe one of the more problematic nature of the story is she has her abuser's baby and is very happy about it in a way [01:22:41] Speaker B: that co parenting with him. [01:22:43] Speaker A: Co parents with him. We'll get to it. My hot take is that I think the movie does a pretty good job of addressing it as realistically as it can, kind of. But yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the book doesn't mention the option of abortion at all? [01:23:00] Speaker B: Not that I remember, no. [01:23:01] Speaker A: Yeah. So then we get the big scene between where Lily goes and talks to Alyssa for the first time since all this has happened, at least in the movie, and explains. Is talking to her about how she's pregnant and all this happened, and tells her about what Ryle did and everything. And we kind of jump into the conversation mid conversation, but Alyssa explains. She asks Alyssa, like, hey, can you tell me what happened? Because this was set up earlier in the movie that they had an older or another brother. Emerson. [01:23:31] Speaker B: Yes. [01:23:31] Speaker A: Who died when they were younger, and we don't know why. And Ryle's very cagey about it, and they just don't talk about it. And we find out in this scene that Ryle has a tragic backstory where when he was like, six, he accidentally. Or he got his dad's gun and accidentally shot and killed his brother. And I wanted to know if that came from the book, because I was mixed on this. I think. I don't know. I. [01:23:56] Speaker B: So he does have the same tragic backstory in the book, although in the book it is Ryle who tells her about it and not Alyssa. Yeah, I'm. I don't know what to make of that change or even if I should make anything of it. I also have. [01:24:15] Speaker A: It's tough. [01:24:16] Speaker B: It's. [01:24:16] Speaker A: I. [01:24:17] Speaker B: It feels like. Okay, so, like, this specific. [01:24:22] Speaker A: Yes. [01:24:23] Speaker B: Backstory kind of feels like A hat on a hat. [01:24:27] Speaker A: Yes. [01:24:28] Speaker B: And also, I don't like. I like. Okay, sure. He has this unresolved trauma that, like, manifests in rage. [01:24:43] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, sure. Yes. [01:24:47] Speaker B: What are we trying to achieve. [01:24:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:24:53] Speaker B: By explaining. Not away, but that. [01:25:00] Speaker A: That was my same. [01:25:01] Speaker B: Away. [01:25:01] Speaker A: It feels. That was my same feeling I got. And I could understand people feeling that way, but this is. It feels like the movie coming up with an excuse. [01:25:09] Speaker B: Yes. [01:25:10] Speaker A: For Ryle. [01:25:11] Speaker B: And now ultimately, I don't think that it's used as an excuse. [01:25:16] Speaker A: I don't think so, but it feels like that. [01:25:18] Speaker B: Yes. [01:25:20] Speaker A: And the issue, I think, is that it feels like that because, like, it's so in. Crazy. Like it's so over the top that it feels like. Well, obviously he has, like. It becomes this thing of like, well, obviously, how could you expect him not to be deeply up? And like. That's true. Like, I. I get what the movie. Like. And like, because ultimately, what the scene, what that moment is, is it. It's that explanation of like, well, you don't know anybody's story. Like, it's kind of what we're going for here is, like. Which it gets into this messy thing of like, you know, that the bad guy has this horribly tragic backstory that explains why he's a bad guy. [01:26:00] Speaker B: Yes. [01:26:01] Speaker A: And I think that's true for most people. I think it is. We get into that weird thing where you ride this line between. That is true. People aren't evil for no reason. Usually. They're usually evil because of some shit that happened to them or whatever. Like there's some trauma or something or awful shit that when they were a kid or whatever that fucked them up, and now that's why they're a bad person or whatever, or blah, blah, blah. Usually that is the case because that's just how people work. And the people. That isn't the case, then they're. There's probably something wrong with their brain. Like, they have a. You know what I mean? Like, they're. They just happen to be born a psychopath or something. Whatever. Like, I don't know. And so, like, there is a. Like a truth and a reality to that that I think the movie is trying to get at of. Like, you. Like, people have reasons for the way they behave, and you don't always know those reasons. And. And it's worth. Yes, extending people some grace for the things you don't know about them and stuff like that. But in the context of the movie, it also does kind of come across as like, well, it's not his Fault. This happened when he was a kid, so, like, isn't that unfortunate? And, like, well, now we know why he's bad, so, like, you can forgive him or whatever. Like, you know, it just feels like we have created the most tragic backstory possible in order to excuse his behavior. Again, it's not excusing it, but it's explaining his behavior in a way that almost feels like an excuse. [01:27:31] Speaker B: I agree. [01:27:32] Speaker A: You know what I mean? It's complicated, though. Yeah. [01:27:35] Speaker B: The other thing that the movie changes, and I forgot about this until just now when we were talking about it, is that the movie moves this tragic backstory reveal. It is revealed much earlier in the book. It's revealed following the phone staircase incident. Oh. And then it becomes like, an additional thing that keeps her there. Keeps her there. [01:27:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, then I'd much prefer, in the movie, finding out after I think everything goes down as more of, like, a retroactive explanation, I think. Or is like a. [01:28:08] Speaker B: You know, I could see it both ways. [01:28:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Because. Yeah, it does lead into, like, the. It playing into her staying. Makes sense. [01:28:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:28:16] Speaker A: It was like. Yeah, yeah. [01:28:18] Speaker B: I don't know, because I honestly almost think that that's a kind of an. Because the. The narrative itself, I think, is not using it as an excuse for him. [01:28:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:28:29] Speaker B: But because she finds that out, when she does, she uses it as an excuse for him, which I think is maybe pretty effective. [01:28:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. For sure. Yeah. Well, we're gonna have a million things to say about this next line. So much to say about this. This line was maybe my favorite line in the movie because it got to something that I thought was very. Is a very, like, important and true kind of observation about humans and relationships and all of that, which is as she's. They're having this whole discussion, and she's just explained all this backstory about Ryle and everything. And I don't know if she asks, like, what you're gonna do, or maybe Lily says, like, what should I do? Or I don't remember. Something like that. [01:29:15] Speaker B: I don't remember. [01:29:16] Speaker A: I don't remember what prompts it, but. But Alyssa, Ryle's sister, says to Lily, look, as his sister, I wish you could find a way to forgive him, but as your best friend, if you take him back, I'll never speak to you again. And I was like, that is a really good line, because I think it. It. It just. It. Well, we'll get into it. I want to know if that comes from the book, and then we can talk about that. [01:29:41] Speaker B: It does. That is directly from the book. [01:29:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:29:45] Speaker B: And I was, like, palpably relieved when Alyssa came out on the other side of this as, like, a good egg. [01:29:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree completely. And I just. I loved that line because I thought it just lays bare such a real thing that I think people know but forget about or ignore when it's other people all the time, which is this idea of, like, well, obviously she's not gonna, like, abandon him. [01:30:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:30:19] Speaker A: He's her brother who she loves a lot and who means a lot to her. And so that line of like, I wish you could find a way to forgive him, because she wants him to be forgiven and be a better person and grow and change and be the brother that she loves. And all of. You know what I mean? Like, it. And. But at the same time, she's like, but, you know. But I understand completely. You cannot go back to him. Like, obviously. And it just. It just really, like, hit this chord with me of, like, that this story understands the complexities of people in a way that. [01:30:55] Speaker B: In a way that a lot of people. [01:30:56] Speaker A: A lot of people seemingly don't. Yes. In a way that a lot of people seemingly don't. Is that idea of, like, well, if you find out one horrible thing about a person you've been friends with, you're. Your whole life, you have to cut them out of your life completely, or you're also a bad person. Or you're. You know what I mean? Like, that. That element of, like, oh, well, they did this horrible thing. They should be completely cut off and, like, blah, blah, blah. And I think this. That that scene really gives voice to both sides of that. That, like, conflict of, like, it's an impossible situation. And obviously she shouldn't stay with this guy because he's abusive, but also his sister still cares about him and loves him and. And wants the best for him and, like, you know, likes Lily with him and thinks she maybe she probably could make him, you know, help him or whatever. But more importantly, worried about Lily. I don't know. I just. I. I liked it a lot. So. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Then we get to the birth scene where Lily gives birth to the baby, and Ryle is there. He comes in and he helps during the delivery, but he also is then there afterwards, and she lets him hold the baby and stuff. And I thought his performance during the scene was the worst in the movie. [01:32:19] Speaker B: It was pretty bad. [01:32:20] Speaker A: Well, they're like, what are we gonna name him? And he. Or her? And she's like. I was thinking we should name her Emerson. Or whatever after his brother. And his response is like, I think that's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for me. But the way he delivers it feels awful. It's so cheesy. And I don't think he's horrible most of the movie. I think he's fine. But that moment, I. It just came across so fake and hollow to me, which it's not supposed to. Like, that's not a moment where like earlier, like when I was unsure how much I'm supposed to like believe his act and stuff. I think that all works in like the early scenes where he's being kind of a douche and you're like, no, no. But in this scene he's supposed to be being very genuine. Here we're supposed to fully believe this. And I was like, that felt like an act. It felt very weird. But does she let Ryle be there with the, the during the delivery and, and with the baby and kind of implying that they're going to co parent? Well, also, and we had a scene earlier where he helped her like set up the crib and stuff. [01:33:19] Speaker B: He is there when she gives birth. He also lives in the apartment with her for a couple weeks, like right before her due date. Yeah, that specific line is not from the book. Although they do name the baby Emerson after his brother. [01:33:33] Speaker A: Okay. I think. And I don't know if I had this in another place, but I think maybe one of the biggest issues in the movie with this ending that probably would probably fucked a lot of people up and made them not like it, if I had to guess, would be that we. She just. And it's not even this scene necessarily. It's the scene where he shows up to build the crib in the movie, the way the movie is as presented. That is the first time they have seen each other since he physically assaulted her and tried to rape her. And we have seen no apology, like, other than texts that have popped up where he's like, I'm so sorry, whatever. We have seen no like apology or anything. Or anything. And she just like lets him in and they like build a crib together. [01:34:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:34:21] Speaker A: And that felt to me like we were missing something. For their relationship to get to that point where it felt like maybe she was like letting. And now again, maybe that's on purpose. Maybe it's still that idea of like she, you know, she's not a, you know, she doesn't handle it perfectly or whatever, but her just like letting him back into her life, like immediate. Not immediately, but. But without Us having seen him do anything to warrant that. [01:34:48] Speaker B: Yes. [01:34:49] Speaker A: Was something that felt like. But again, maybe that's on purpose and maybe the idea is that, you know, she's, she's not. Doesn't handle it perfectly and like, because like again, you should not let the, the dude who physically assaulted you and raped you just like come hang out. [01:35:05] Speaker B: No. [01:35:05] Speaker A: Two weeks later, like what the fuck? [01:35:07] Speaker B: It has, it's been, it's been more time than that. [01:35:09] Speaker A: Months, whatever or weeks. I don't know, it's. I knew it was at least weeks, but I. Yeah, I guess I didn't know how long. Wrong. It's been a while. But like we have not in the context of the movie, we have not seen anything to make it think that he is not still a dangerous person that you should not be. You know what? [01:35:23] Speaker B: I agree. [01:35:23] Speaker A: And so that's where it feels a little weird that she's just like, ah, yeah, sure, fine, you can help me build the crib and stuff. And like, you know, I'll, I'll allow you, I'll pity. Allow you to come and be part of this. Yeah. Anyways, but then right after the baby scene, they give birth, blah, blah, blah. And I, I thought this, I didn't hate this scene is that she immediately asked him for a divor. She, she like lets, she names the baby and she like lets him hold the baby and stuff. And then she's like, I'm getting it, we're getting divorced. And initially he tries to like, like, what really? Are you. Can we not talk about this now? And she's like, no. And she, she refuses to like let him talk her out of it or anything like that. And then she just fucking reads him the riot act to his face about all of the shitty things he did. [01:36:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:36:08] Speaker A: Like just holds it straight to him, which I, I thought was really effective. She just explicitly says like, what would happen if, if, you know, what would you say if your daughter, if she, you know, 20 years from now came and told you that? And she just outlines every single thing he did to her to his face. And he just like, well, yeah, obviously. And I thought it's, I liked it. I thought it worked really well and I wanted to know if it came from the book. [01:36:32] Speaker B: It is, yeah, it all is directly from the book. And I also thought that worked really well. [01:36:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I can understand the idea of it maybe feeling a little. And I think this is maybe one of the bigger criticisms of the book story movie as a whole is it all feels a little wish fulfillmenty. Like the way it all plays out feels like it's this weird combination of like, very realistic, messy people being realistic and messy and blah, blah, blah. But also like kind of having like this moment. Is it like the. The like, epitome, like wish fulfillment idea of what this moment could be. You know what I mean? Where he, like, she reads him every one of. She. She recites every horrible thing he did, and he breaks down in tears and was like, yes, obvious. You know what I mean? It all kind of wraps up a bit neatly and easily in a way that. But that being said, I. I thought it worked. I. I liked it. So not gonna apologize. I liked it. I liked the end of this movie generally. Not all of it. We'll get to that here in a second then. Holy shit. My reaction to this next moment. He leaves and she is talking to the baby. And I don't think I have ever been so hype for a title drop because I did not see it coming at all. [01:37:53] Speaker B: Yes. [01:37:54] Speaker A: And she's just sitting there with the baby. And I heard her say, she's like, holding the baby. She's like, yeah, it stops right here. And I was like, huh. It, like, hit me like a truck. I was like, oh, my God, we're going to get the title drop. Because she said, it stops right here. I was like, it ends with us. It ends with us. She says, it ends with us. And I wanted to know if that title drop, like, that came. Was in the book. [01:38:17] Speaker B: Yes, this is from the book. And I was equally hyped while reading because it somehow never occurred to me that the us in It Ends With Us would be anything other than Lily and Kyle. [01:38:30] Speaker A: I assumed the same thing. Yeah, but. Yeah, no, it's great. And obviously we're joking, but like, we're saying is, hi, we're. I'm always a big fan of title drops in. I love a title drop in movies. And it's just always. It's like a silly, dumb thing that I just really enjoy. And especially when it's done in a way where you can see it coming. It just. I don't know what it is. [01:38:50] Speaker B: And this one really hit. [01:38:52] Speaker A: This one really hit. Really hit. It's. I just. The. The setup and it just. I don't know. It. It. It. It almost undercuts the seriousness of the scene. It. But it's still. I just. I loved it so much that I didn't care. It's so funny. So she leaves the hospital. Great. Moves on, separated, gets a divorce from Ryle. And then we see a scene where she goes and drives to the cemetery with her baby. Takes her baby to the cemetery and sees her dead dads. [01:39:23] Speaker B: Yeah. And her mom is also there. [01:39:25] Speaker A: Her mom is there. And she goes up and she kind of like introduces her dead dad to her baby and then puts the list. The blank list, which I think is important that it's blank. She didn't, like, add anything to it, which I think helps a little bit in this scene. But she puts the note on the little blank list on the gravestone and then leaves. And I wanted to know if that scene happened in the movie, because I have thoughts or in the book. [01:39:51] Speaker B: It did happen in the movie. This is not from the book. There is an epilogue in the book, but she doesn't go to her father's grave. And quite frankly, I thought this scene was weird. I did not like it. That guy was the worst. [01:40:06] Speaker A: Yes. [01:40:07] Speaker B: And we're like, taking baby to meet grandpa because she, like, bends down with. She's like, oh, this is your grandpa. That's a weird vibe. [01:40:16] Speaker A: That's a weird vibe because. And it feels like it almost undoes a lot of what the baby is doing. [01:40:21] Speaker B: Yes. [01:40:21] Speaker A: Because guess what he didn't do. He didn't make any amends. No, he didn't do any of that. [01:40:26] Speaker B: He just died. [01:40:27] Speaker A: He just died. And it was. He was off. Look, if I understand the point that the movie is making, he was also a complicated man. Person who had. And then, like, the relationship with the mom was like, the. What we're supposed to pull from that is like, you know, it was not as straightforward as he was like, this evil guy or whatever. But. But we don't. But he isn't here to fix any of that. You know what I mean? Like, it's different with Ryle because he can fit. He can. [01:40:52] Speaker B: Yes. [01:40:53] Speaker A: Do things. [01:40:53] Speaker B: He can. He can acknowledge his. [01:40:55] Speaker A: His fault, which he has at least somewhat started to do. [01:40:58] Speaker B: He can go forth and he can try to be better. [01:41:00] Speaker A: He can try to be better. This guy's dead. We're not doing that. Like, what are. And so I completely. It felt. And like, it's one thing if the mom wants to. Like, if. If she has a different feeling. It would be actually an entirely different thing to me if she went up to her mom and explained to her, which I think is what this scene is going for, is like. It's like almost an acknowledgment to her mom of, like, I. Sorry for, like, maybe judging. Which her mom didn't even know she was doing that with her necessarily. So like, the thematic throughline here that would make the most sense to me and would be the payoff that would work, would be her talking to her mom and, like, forgiving her mom a little bit. [01:41:40] Speaker B: Wait till we get to better in the book. [01:41:41] Speaker A: Okay? And, like, kind of like, you know, saying like, hey, I'm sorry that I, you know, was kind of maybe judged you so harshly over the years. And, like, I understand now what you went through and why it wasn't easy and why you made the decision, all that sort of stuff, that is a thing that would make sense. But just going to his grave and being like, here's your granddaughter, like, what the fuck? What are you doing? [01:42:00] Speaker B: I think it would even be better if she went to the grave by herself and just, like, put the blank napkin down. [01:42:08] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes, yes. [01:42:09] Speaker B: It would still be unnecessary. [01:42:11] Speaker A: Yes. [01:42:11] Speaker B: But it would feel a little better than what we got. [01:42:13] Speaker A: It would still feel a little bit better. Better. Yeah. And I do think that the blank napkin is, like, maybe an attempt to. To couch this a little bit in, like. Well, she still thinks you suck because she didn't add anything to that list. You know what I mean? But. [01:42:28] Speaker B: But apparently not enough. [01:42:30] Speaker A: But not enough. I don't know. It's weird. Yeah. I. I did not like this scene at all. I thought it made no sense. My final question then is, then we get another a second kind of epilogue scene where she's at a farmer's market. I would. I would. I would know a farmer's market anywhere. Farmer's market. I could spot him from a mile away. That's a fucking farmer's market. She's at a farmer's market, and she sees Atlas, turns around, walks up to him, and he's like, so, are you still with the guy? And she's like, no. Are you still with whatever? No. Cool. The end. And it's the worst. Neither of these two scenes should be in the movie. Is that one in the book? [01:43:12] Speaker B: That does happen in the epilogue. Yeah. And I didn't mind it as much in the book as I did in the movie, but it does have a similar effect of taking the wind out of that last line. [01:43:24] Speaker A: Yes. [01:43:25] Speaker B: I think the movie should have ended with her saying, it ends with us. [01:43:28] Speaker A: Yeah, it ends with us. [01:43:30] Speaker B: Credits roll. [01:43:31] Speaker A: That would have worked. My thought was, because we see the ends with us, and then we see her driving home in the car, and there's this slow motion of shot of her with the baby in the back with the sun on her face. End it there or whatever, because that's right before the cemetery. End it there. Or what you say. Either way, just end it there. That's all you need. You don't need. Because all the rest of this does is it just. It refocuses it on men in a way that feels weird and gross and pointless. Yeah. [01:43:59] Speaker B: And I don't know if in the book, the epilogue does feel like it is leaving the door open for a sequel with Atlas, which is ultimately what we get. [01:44:10] Speaker A: Right. [01:44:11] Speaker B: So, sure. Get your paper, Colleen Hoover. [01:44:15] Speaker A: Well, and then even. Even beyond that, even if the movie wants to do the scene at the farmer's market, don't do the conversation. Just have her see him across the thing and he kind of smiles, and then it ends. [01:44:26] Speaker B: It ends. [01:44:26] Speaker A: And we can imagine what happens, but we have to have a whole conversation where she walks up and goes, I am no longer with my abuser. Oh, that's great. I am no longer with my girlfriend. I guess that means we can be together now. It's like, what the f. Like, it's so. Oh, it's bad that. That scene. Yeah, those final two scenes are bad. And they shouldn't be in the movie, but whatever. All right, I got a couple more questions and stuff we want to discuss in Lost and Adaptation. [01:44:50] Speaker B: Just show me the way to get [01:44:51] Speaker A: out of here, and I'll be on my way. Yes, yes. [01:44:56] Speaker B: And I want to get unlost as soon as possible. [01:44:59] Speaker A: There's this brief conversation that they have early in the book or in the movie that I want to know if it was in the book or if you have any extra. Because I thought this was really interesting, and I wanted to know, mainly I wanted to know if this type of dialogue and banter came from the book or if you could tell if it was trying to ape something in the book. It's obviously hard to know. You can't do dialogue the same way in writing that you can in a movie. But there's this brief conversation where Jenny Slate, Alyssa comes in, and when they first meet, and she talks about how she hates flowers, and then Lily responds and briefly waxes poetic about how she hates corporate flower shops because they ruin the beauty of other flowers. And I was so confused about this conversation because I'm just gonna read it real quick. I found the transcript online. She says, like, Alyssa says, like, I hate flowers. And Lily goes, oh, I agree. I find them depressing because I feel like. I don't know. It's like, the beauty of what a flower is. This is ridiculous. The beauty of what a flower is has been lost. Right It's. It's. It's like we order them, like, takeout now. [01:45:56] Speaker B: It's. [01:45:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And then she's. Alyssa's like, yes. And she's like, right. It's what. It's what you're talking about. It's highlighting the pain and the tension and the. The. You know, the. The fact that it's fleeting and it's storytelling and. I don't know. And that's actually what I find beautiful about it. And that's what I'm trying to do here, so. And it's so awkwardly stated. [01:46:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:46:15] Speaker A: For a movie. Because I was like, what is she even trying to say there? To the point where I was like, well, that doesn't even. Like, what is she trying to say? But then I thought about it. I'm like, is this brilliant? Like, I don't know that I'm blanking on the word for. When something is, like, super true to real life. There's a word for it that I'm blanking on. But I was like, is this, like, super realistic writing? Because that's how people talk. That's how I talk all the time, where I'm trying to express a point about something and you're kind of stumbling your way through it. Like, the. It's like we order them, like, takeout now. It's. It's. It's. It's what you were talking about. It's like, highlighting the pain and the tension, and it's. You know, it's that. That feeling, and it's fleeting and it's storytelling. Like, it. The. The. The. She's connecting points in her head, but not all of those points. All. All of the words she's thinking in her head are not coming out of her mouth, but it kind of makes sense. And you get the gist of what she's saying without. You know what I mean? Do you know? I get what I'm saying at all here? [01:47:11] Speaker B: I get what you're saying. [01:47:12] Speaker A: I thought it was fascinating. And the movie does that a few times. This is the big one. But on top of this, the other thing the book or the movie does quite a bit of is people, like, talking over each other. [01:47:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:47:24] Speaker A: Which I thought was interesting because, again, that's the thing movies tend not to do or try not to do. It depends. It's a style thing. Some movies do it a ton. There's whole subsets of movies where that's, like, the specific thing they do. They're called, like, mumblecore movies. But, like, they're. Anyways, I thought that was interesting, and I wanted to know if that felt like it was trying to capture anything from the book. [01:47:44] Speaker B: I didn't feel like it was okay. This was not a vibe that I got from the book. And I'll be honest that I didn't like this, really. I know. [01:47:54] Speaker A: So I didn't initially. Sorry. [01:47:56] Speaker B: Particularly this one. Well, some of the early ones between Lily and Ryle, I thought were too [01:48:01] Speaker A: quippy that I completely. The rooftop scene's so quick, but this one. [01:48:06] Speaker B: I see what you're saying, and I see what the movie is going for, but maybe it was the performance. It felt rehearsed. [01:48:13] Speaker A: I agree with that. I will agree with that. That the performance of it felt rehearsed. I agree with that. But I actually. Because I initially did not like it. I was like, what is he? What? But again, as I thought about it more, I was like, that's actually really interesting because I. You just so rarely see that in movies where people talk clumsily and awkwardly, like they do in real life, where they, like, circle around a point they're trying to make and they, like, trail off, like we do on this podcast, or at least I do on this podcast all the time, where, you know, you're trying to get a point out and you're making points around your point and you're connecting some words, but then, like, you kind of trail off and you're hoping the person is filling in what you're. You know what? I'm. I'm doing it right now. I'm literally doing it right now. But anyways, I. I thought it was fascinating. Anyway, we move on. Another scene that happened that. This one, I didn't understand, and I. I still don't know if I understand. And I thought it was very. This one just felt more like. Like I was missing something. After the big fight in the restaurant where Ryle and Atlas have their big confrontation, and he kicks them out of the restaurant. They're storming out onto the street, and Blake, Lily is chasing after him and begging him not to freak out or whatever. And they're standing out on the street, and she says, I don't know him. I mean, we were kids. I don't know him now. And Ryle responds, anyone but him. Him. Anyone but him. And she's like, I don't know what you're talking about. And she. He says, I know you. Anyone but him. And I paused while we were watching this. I was like, anyone but him. What? I don't know what this means. And I was hoping maybe this conversation was in the book. And you had more context. [01:49:54] Speaker B: It is not, and I do not. [01:49:55] Speaker A: Okay. [01:49:56] Speaker B: And I guess the idea is that he's already convinced that she's gonna cheat on him. [01:50:01] Speaker A: It's the only thing that makes sense. [01:50:02] Speaker B: But when she says, I don't know what you're talking about. I felt that. [01:50:06] Speaker A: Yes. [01:50:07] Speaker B: I was like, I don't either. [01:50:09] Speaker A: But I will say now I think more about it, which is. I think a thing that this movie also does a pretty good job of is it's a similar thing to the last scene, actually, where he. He has a thought in his head that he is saying out loud or that he is not fully expressing. [01:50:25] Speaker B: Yes. [01:50:26] Speaker A: And that she is responding to. But I actually think it really works in this context to some extent because. And I thought she did a really good job of this. I don't know if she's been in abusive relationships or what previously, but, like, the way she, like, pleads with him. [01:50:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:50:40] Speaker A: To, like. And begs him to, like, not freak out is like, oh, very real. Very real. And in a way. And this is one of those where, like, where he. She doesn't, like, she's just, like, trying to do. Say anything she can to, like, get him to calm down. [01:50:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:50:55] Speaker A: And he is saying stuff that doesn't even really make sense. You're like, what? Anyone but him. What? Like, I like, like, again, I was like, what do you even mean by anyone but him? Nothing is like. There's nothing before those sentences that, like. Again, I think the only thing that makes sense is that he's thinking like, you're going to cheat on me. If you cheat on me, do it with anyone but him. [01:51:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:51:17] Speaker A: It's like, the only way that makes sense. [01:51:19] Speaker B: The only way that I can fill that in to make it make sense and. [01:51:23] Speaker A: Because otherwise you're like, anyone but him. What? I don't. [01:51:25] Speaker B: Because he has already fixated on Atlas, which is the problem. [01:51:29] Speaker A: Which, again, I think is kind of compelling. Like, as that idea of, like, he is. There's a thing in his head that makes sense, and some of the words he's saying allude to it but don't really. I don't know. [01:51:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:51:39] Speaker A: I think it's kind of interesting that the movie does that at times. All right, My last question was the ending. Again, I said, we talked about this a little bit. We'll talk more about it here. I was like, I don't know how I feel about the whole ending with the baby and her still, like, talking to Ryle. We talked about this. It's Going for people are complicated, messy thing. I'm not sure it 100% gets there. I've talked myself into it a little bit more over the course of the episode, but I was genuinely unsure how I felt about kind of like the way. And I think I have a feeling about why I feel this way. We'll get to it, but go ahead. The ending of them kind of working [01:52:19] Speaker B: it out, being amicable. [01:52:21] Speaker A: Yes. I was like, eh. [01:52:24] Speaker B: I have similar feelings. I think that this is a genuine attempt to portray the reality of how complicated and messy this kind of situation can be. [01:52:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:52:37] Speaker B: And. And I feel like when you say about like a domestic abuse situation, when you say that it's complicated and messy, what a lot of people hear is that you're saying that the abuser's behavior is. Is excusable in some way or. [01:52:54] Speaker A: Or justified. [01:52:54] Speaker B: Or justified in some ways. Something like that. [01:52:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:52:56] Speaker B: But. But that's not the case. That complication and that messiness comes from a lot of different. So many different factors because there's so many reasons that people keep people who have treated them badly in their lives and most of them don't make sense from the outside looking in. [01:53:17] Speaker A: 100%. Yeah. [01:53:19] Speaker B: I don't think that this book or movie by extension romanticizes domestic violence. [01:53:29] Speaker A: I don't think it does either. [01:53:30] Speaker B: I have seen that accusation leveled at it. [01:53:33] Speaker A: Wild to me. [01:53:33] Speaker B: And I have seen that accusation leveled at Hoover's works in general. I can't speak for all of them. I can only speak for this one, but for this one. I just don't think that that's the case. [01:53:44] Speaker A: No, that is not the vibe. [01:53:46] Speaker B: Like I said, I think it is a genuine attempt to portray domestic violence in a very realistic way. Right. To Lily. Not always acting, reacting, quote unquote correctly. [01:53:59] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. [01:54:01] Speaker B: Where I do think that the book and by extension the movie fails maybe is that I think it's possible for someone to read it and get the message that Ryle is at some level forgivable when he has not at all done the work to prove himself as such. [01:54:21] Speaker A: That's the big thing. The big issue that makes the ending muddy muddies the ending a little bit to me and makes me understand why people would come out of it, like not liking the ending and thinking it's weird or like abuse apology or something like that, is that we don't see him do any work or anything to have earned the grace he is getting from Blake Lively or from Lily. In this scene at the end. We have seen nothing to show that, yes, he deserves this. Other than the knowledge of the backstory of his trauma. That is the only thing we know that for this. For this. And so that other than. I guess you could count that he showed up and helped her build the crib and didn't beat her in that scene or so. You know what I mean? Like, whatever. Like maybe, whatever. But even then, it's like, well, why did she allow that to even happen at that point? Because we didn't see anything before that where she had, like, a phone call with them where, like, you know, And I think that would have been the thing that may have. I don't know how you think there [01:55:20] Speaker B: is more stuff that happens in the book. In the book, in between that last assault and then her having the baby. [01:55:26] Speaker A: Okay. Do they have, like, conversations and stuff? [01:55:30] Speaker B: They talk more about it. Yeah. And he also. He, like, he leaves for, like, three months. [01:55:36] Speaker A: Okay. [01:55:37] Speaker B: And they just don't have any contact with each other for, like, three whole months. [01:55:42] Speaker A: But, yeah. No, but I completely agree. I think that's the thing, is that we haven't. We haven't seen anything to make it. The ending. His happiness seem justified. And I. And I totally understand, like. Or it feels like he gets to win at the end of this movie. He gets to have the baby. He gets to be there with the baby and be the. Be its dad or whatever. And. And it feels like he gets all of that kind of for free for not having really done anything. And I understand that feeling or that sentiment entirely. I would imagine that's probably why a lot of people don't. I don't know. I haven't seen all of the reasons that people. People discuss why they don't like this movie or whatever, find it to be, like, romanticizing domestic violence or, you know, minimizing it or anything like that. But I do think that it's very clear in the rest of the context of the movie that it's not. Because again, after that all happens, she goes, okay, by the way, we're getting divorced and here's why. And you suck and I hate you and you suck and get out of my life. But also, like, she unders. And I think this is. It's maybe the hottest take of all hot takes. But that, like, even people who commit domestic violence are not completely, like, unredeemable monsters. Irredeemable monsters, necessarily. They can be. Plenty of them are and will never be redeemed and shouldn't be because they don't do anything to do it. But I think in the context of this movie. We know just enough about his character to know that maybe he could be not that person. He has seemingly a sister who cares about him a lot, who seems to be a pretty reasonable, good. Relatively good person. I don't know. We don't know a lot about her, I guess, but based on her conversation and her interaction with Lily about her brother, we at least understand that she understands that his behaviors are horrible and that blah, blah, blah, and like. And that she knows that he needs help and needs to change and all these things. So hopefully he can get that help and change in the way that he needs to so that he can not be a dangerous and horrible person to be around. And so I think the movie is, like, doing its best to kind of balance all of those things in a way that is relatively realistic. And it's. I don't know. I don't. I don't know. It just. I understand. I also completely understand how somebody who had been in a domestic violence situation or whatever could watch this movie and be very mad about this ending of it and feel like he is getting off easy and that this is, like, kind of minimizing the harm he caused. I. I totally understand that. I. Like, I could. I could see having that reaction, but I. I also just think that the movie's trying to do something different, and I think it kind of succeeds at least a little bit. I don't know. I. Yeah. Yeah. Any other thoughts on that before? [01:58:41] Speaker B: No. But also. And I don't really know the point that I'm gonna make with this, because I didn't think it all the way through in my head. [01:58:51] Speaker A: That's how I start every sentence. [01:58:54] Speaker B: But something that I kept thinking about as I was reading this book, particularly after the reveal that she's pregnant and when she doesn't know what she's gonna do, I kept thinking about A Streetcar Named Desire. [01:59:10] Speaker A: I have not seen A Streetcar Named Desire. [01:59:13] Speaker B: So if you've seen the movie, the ending of the movie is changed from the play. So it's a Tennessee Williams play. Yeah, it's very good. The movie's also very good, famously. [01:59:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:59:29] Speaker B: So it's about an abusive man. Okay. And at the. His wife has a baby throughout. Like, she. By. Throughout the story. By the end of the. The movie, she, like, has the baby. I think she's just pregnant for most of it. It's been a while since I've seen it, but at the end of the movie, he. Her. Her sister has been staying with them, and then the. The husband rapes her and like, abuses her to the point where at the end of it, she gets, like, carted off to, like, an asylum, basically. Like a sanatorium or whatever they call it. [02:00:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:00:14] Speaker B: Back in the. Whenever that was. And the. The mother is standing outside of the house holding the baby. And there's. It's a very triumphant moment at the end of the film where she, like, turns to the baby and she's like, we're never going back up there. You will. You'll never have to worry about this. We're not going back. And it ends all triumphant. In the play. She's standing outside of the house thinking. And then she hangs her head and walks back inside because she doesn't have any choice other than to walk back inside. And I don't know how this connects to this. [02:00:56] Speaker A: I mean, it's very clearly a very similar kind of idea. Like playing with some similar ideas. Ideas. Yeah. But. [02:01:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I don't know how exactly. My brain wants to connect those two, but my brain really wants to connect them. [02:01:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [02:01:10] Speaker B: I also have not read that play since high school, so. [02:01:14] Speaker A: Interesting. All right, let's go ahead now and find out what Katie thought was better in the book. [02:01:21] Speaker B: You like to read? Oh, yes, I love to read. What do you like to read? Everything. The rooftop scene when he goes up there, they have a little quippy exchange about maraschino cherries. And I think I will say the [02:01:40] Speaker A: Ryan Reynolds influence in this scene is now screaming at me from the roof. Ironically, the rooftops. The more I think about this scene because of how quippy it is. [02:01:49] Speaker B: And I take it she's referring to his cigarette. Cause he's smoking a cigarette in this moment, and she says something about maraschino cherries killing you. But I don't understand. Why are they talking about maraschino cherries? [02:02:03] Speaker A: She just brings it. No, it's nothing to do with a cigarette. I don't. [02:02:05] Speaker B: Well, then why does she bring up [02:02:06] Speaker A: what I would have to go back and find that they say? She just brings it up as, like, a fun fact, I think. Or no, she says, like I used to believe. Isn't this part of their truths? Their truths about each other? [02:02:19] Speaker B: They're naked before they start doing that. [02:02:21] Speaker A: Oh, is it? [02:02:21] Speaker B: That's, like, the first thing she says to him. [02:02:23] Speaker A: I would have to go find the transcript. Because I thought it was during that, where she's like, oh, I used to believe maraschino cherries would kill you. Because the context of it, she said. Because at least I remember parts of it, she says, I used to believe maraschino cherries would kill you. That, like, if you ate them, they would like or may not kill you, but they would sit in your stomach forever and then do something. I. I don't. I can't remember. Hold on. [02:02:45] Speaker B: It's not important. [02:02:46] Speaker A: It is. That's what it is. He says, you're making me nervous sitting so close to the edge. Please, like, move away. And she says, cherry on top. Or he says, cherry on top. And she says, I'm okay. And he says, you gotta be. And then she says, I once read that maraschino cherries stay in your stomach for, like, seven years or cause cancer. I forget which. And he says, I didn't know that about maraschino cherries. And she said, yeah, I may have made that up, but they're pretty gross. Yeah, they're definitely gross. And that's the whole thing. It's just that I think it was [02:03:20] Speaker B: the cancer part that made me think she was, like, somehow shading the fact that he was smoking a cigarette. And I was like, I don't understand why she brought that up via maraschino cherries. Anyway, that really confused me. Okay, so another moment when they're at the party and so they're, like, flirting. [02:03:47] Speaker A: Get out of here. [02:03:47] Speaker B: He's like, let's get out of here. And he takes her to. To his apartment, which is in the same room. [02:03:52] Speaker A: Oh, is that what it is? I thought so. [02:03:54] Speaker B: Or maybe the parties at his apartment. I'm not really sure. [02:03:56] Speaker A: No, you're probably right, because you can still hear the music. I. I didn't. Because we don't see them leave. I assumed they were, like, in a bedroom in the apartment somewhere. But you might be right, because he does say he lives next to him or whatever. So. [02:04:06] Speaker B: So he. They. They go to his. His bedroom. [02:04:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:04:10] Speaker B: And decide not to have sex. [02:04:15] Speaker A: Yes. [02:04:16] Speaker B: And then he's like, okay, then we're going to bed and starts, like, putting on his pajamas. And I was like, what do you mean we're going? She literally just got to the party [02:04:28] Speaker A: the exact same thought. I was like, is it like 8pm like, what are you. [02:04:33] Speaker B: She. I cannot stress enough. Just got there. [02:04:38] Speaker A: Yes. [02:04:38] Speaker B: And this, like, this technically does happen in the book, but I. I don't think it's literally right after she arrived, because she gets to the party, and then she immediately leaves with him. And then she. He's like, okay, let's go to bed. And I'm like, I'm going back to the party. What are you talking about? [02:04:55] Speaker A: I had the exact Same. [02:04:56] Speaker B: I put on fishnets for this. [02:04:59] Speaker A: Yeah. It makes no sense. It's. That's just an editing thing or something. Because it would be totally different. Like, I understand what they're going for in that scene. If he's like, oh, we're not going to sleep together, we're just going to sleep or whatever. [02:05:10] Speaker B: Right. [02:05:10] Speaker A: Like, it's supposed to be, like, this cute. [02:05:12] Speaker B: And that is what happens in the book, I think. [02:05:14] Speaker A: Yeah. But, yeah, 100%. Because we see them. She arrives at the party, gets a drink. Immediately he's like, we should get out of here. And she's like, okay, cut to his bedroom. And she's like. He's like, we should go to bed. It's like, she just been at the party for five minutes. What? What's going on? [02:05:30] Speaker B: Go to bed. That's a red flag. [02:05:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [02:05:35] Speaker B: Okay. I simply must read this to you because I found this so funny. You're gonna think it's really funny. Okay. [02:05:46] Speaker A: This is better in the book. [02:05:47] Speaker B: It's. It's just funny. [02:05:49] Speaker A: Okay. [02:05:50] Speaker B: It's. It's better in the book because it's really funny. [02:05:53] Speaker A: Okay. [02:05:55] Speaker B: What are you doing to those poor flowers? Alyssa asks from behind me. I clamp another silver washer closed and slide it down the stem. Steampunk. We both stand back and admire the bouquet. At least I hope she's looking at it with admiration. It turned out better than I thought it would. I used florist dip dye to turn some white roses a deep purple. Then I decorated the stems with different steampunk elements, like tiny metal washers and gears. [02:06:27] Speaker A: That's how you make it. Steampunk. [02:06:28] Speaker B: And even super glued a small clock to the brown leather strap that's holding the bouquet together. [02:06:36] Speaker A: It's so 2015. [02:06:37] Speaker B: Yes. Steampunk think it's a trend, kind of a sub genre of fiction, but it's catching on in other areas. Art, music. I turn around and smile, holding up the bouquet. And now flowers. [02:06:52] Speaker A: Oh, my God. Even in 2015 or whatever that this book came out, that steampunk was not, like, hip anymore. Like, and I. I would. [02:07:00] Speaker B: I would. I would posit that steampunk was never really. [02:07:05] Speaker A: I agree. I agree. [02:07:06] Speaker B: I think it had a very, very brief moment. Moment where it was, like, used in some artsy stuff. [02:07:13] Speaker A: Yeah, but that was more like maybe in five to ten years before. [02:07:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:07:17] Speaker A: Like, mid. [02:07:18] Speaker B: And it never. It never really went mainstream. [02:07:20] Speaker A: No, it was never mainstream. But, yeah, it. Yeah. That's amazing. I was steampunk flies. I. [02:07:26] Speaker B: Tears. Tears on my face reading that and then like later on, I wrote gears and all caps in my notes. Gears. And then she uses a boot as a vase for the flowers. [02:07:42] Speaker A: Should have got Glenn Hetron on the [02:07:43] Speaker B: floor, like a Victorian style boot to [02:07:46] Speaker A: judge her steampunk, to see if it was good steampunk, to see if it had enough gears, if it had enough gears that were motivated or not. Because Glenn Hetrick, people who don't know, I'll very quickly explain this. Glenn Hetrick is a makeup artist, personal stylist to Lady Gaga. For a long time, they always said on the show, makeup artist, probably most known. He did a lot of the makeup and was nominated for a bunch of awards. On the more recent Star Trek stuff, like Star Trek Discovery and stuff. Very talented makeup artist on a show called Face off that we really like. Makeup competition show, reality show from Sci Fi. [02:08:17] Speaker B: Fantastic. Highly recommend if you can find it. [02:08:20] Speaker A: Some seasons are on Netflix, some their seasons are spread all over the place. There's not like all of it in one place, but you can. Some of it is on Netflix or at least was in America. Incredible show. It's just every week, it's basically a standard. Like every week there's like 20 contestants. Every week there's a challenge, somebody goes home. But it's all like making monster makeup, creature makeup, movie makeup, special effects stuff. Glenn Edrick, the, like, the main judge on it, he was a big steampunk guy and he, whenever there was the authority, he was like the authority and he wore steampunky stuff all the time. [02:08:54] Speaker B: He always looks incredible. [02:08:55] Speaker A: His outfits are insane. He's fantastic. But he would always judge the steampunk. He was very particular whenever there was like a steampunk challenge because his. This was a niche that he felt very attached to. And he would always be very particular that you don't just glue Gears randomly here and there. It all needs to have like a feel, like it has a. Serves a purpose or, you know, it has some sort of. [02:09:20] Speaker B: Yeah, so, but you got to have gears. [02:09:22] Speaker A: You do have to have gears. They are important. You just. They need to be gears that are motivated. [02:09:25] Speaker B: It's not steampunk without gears. [02:09:27] Speaker A: Not just random gears. [02:09:31] Speaker B: Another thing that really made me laugh is that there's this. There's. There's a sex scene where, where he. He uses his stethoscope to track her heart rate. [02:09:49] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [02:09:50] Speaker B: And I'm. I'm only slightly joking, putting. Putting this under better in the book. It was the closest this book ever felt to 50 shades of gray. And that just made me Laugh. Yeah, it felt very Fifty Shades. [02:10:06] Speaker A: Yeah, very classic. He's a doctor. He's got to use his stethoscope. [02:10:08] Speaker B: Yeah, he's got to use a stethoscope. Arriving at something more serious. In the book, Ryle does, like, openly bold face lie to Alyssa and Marshall about how Lily keeps getting injured. Like, just straight up lies about everything. My final thing here, and this might be, like, the main thing for me, because I cannot believe that the movie skipped over the conversation she has with her mom when her mom tells her not to stay with Ryle. [02:10:44] Speaker A: Oh. [02:10:45] Speaker B: Because this conversation is, dare I say, the beating heart and thesis of this story. [02:10:54] Speaker A: Really? [02:10:54] Speaker B: Yes. And I'm going to read it to you. Okay. So she's just explained to her mom, this is following. This is following that. That final assault. And then she found out she's pregnant. So she's just. She's revealed to her mom that she's pregnant and then also told her about what has been going on with the abuse. Her mom says. Do you want to take him back? She asks. I don't say yes, but I also don't say no. This is the first moment since this has happened that I'm being completely honest. I'm honest to her and to myself. Maybe because she's the only one I know who has been through this. She's the only one I know who would understand the massive amounts of confusion I've been experiencing. I shake my head, but I also shrug. Most of me feels like I'll never be able to trust him again. But a huge part of me grieves what I had with him. We were so good together, Mom. The times I spent with him were some. Some of the best moments of my life. And occasionally I feel like maybe I don't want to give that up. I wipe the napkin beneath my eye, soaking up more tears. Sometimes, when I'm really missing him, I tell myself that maybe it wasn't that bad. Maybe I could just put up with him when he's at his worst so I can have him when he's at his best. She puts her hand on top of mine and rubs her thumb back and forth. I know exactly what you mean, Lily. But the last thing you want to do is lose sight of your limit. Please don't allow that to happen. I have no idea what she means by that. She sees the confusion in my expression, so she squeezes my arm and explains in more detail. We all have a limit. What we're willing to put up with before we break. Break. When I married Your father. I knew exactly what my limit was. But slowly, with every incident, my limit was pushed a little more and a little more. The first time your father hit me, he was immediately sorry. He swore it would never happen again. The second time he hit me, he was even more sorry. The third time it happened, it was more than a hit. It was a beating. And every single time, I took him back, back. But the fourth time, it was only a slap. And when that happened, I felt relieved. I remember thinking, at least he didn't beat me this time. This wasn't so bad. She brings the napkin up to her eyes and says, every incident chips away at your limit. Every time you choose to stay, it makes the next time that much harder to leave. Eventually, you lose sight of your limit altogether because you start to think, I've lasted five years. Now, what's five more? She grabs my hands and holds them while I cry. Don't be like me, Lily. I know that you believe he loves you, and I'm sure he does. But he's not loving you the right way. He doesn't love you the way you deserve to be loved. [02:13:55] Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting because that one. It started because initially I was like. I could kind of see why they cut that. Because initially it almost felt. Not initially, but that one point where she says, no, your limit or whatever felt a little bit like it was like, well, there's an okay amount of spousal abuse that you can put up with. You know what I mean? Like, that's what it felt. But very clearly, by the end, I think it's talking more about the way that our perspective, our perceptions of things change and shift and how it felt more like what she was saying was like, well, you know, I had a limit, which was. I would never put up with. [02:14:35] Speaker B: With that. [02:14:36] Speaker A: But then I started adjusting that based on. [02:14:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:14:41] Speaker A: The things that were going on. And it's very quickly what your. You know, your rules. Maybe the limit would be the wrong. Maybe it would be a little bit better if the limit. If the wording was changed slightly but, like, very quickly. You're kind of like your hard and fast rules or, like, ideas about your relationship become very blurred and muddy very quickly because they're complicated by the feelings of being in a relationship and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, no, it's very interesting. It's very good. I could see it working in the movie. I think I would. Like I said, I think I might tweak it a little bit for the movie. [02:15:16] Speaker B: You would tweak it, But I Don't know. I just think. And particularly the part where Lily is expressing why she is confused and feels like she doesn't know what to do, I think is really good and really, like, raw and honest because, you know, you're in a relationship, someone with someone, obviously there are good things and there [02:15:42] Speaker A: are even the worst abusive relationships. There are still good times. Or else. Yeah. [02:15:47] Speaker B: And, And I, And I think it can get really, like, you know what she said about, like, I, I wonder if I should just put up with the bad times so that I can have the good times. And I, I don't know. Particularly because of the way that I have heard people criticize this property. I feel like maybe that perspective was important. [02:16:10] Speaker A: Yeah. No, I agree. It's funny because, like, I, you're reading that. I was like, that is great. It is good. I, And I think it would. The movie would be better for having it. I also felt like I got all of that from the movie already. You know what I mean? Like, like, like, I, for me, at least watching the movie, that. But I think it would have made it more clear to some people. I think that perspective would have been helpful for some people watching movie. Again, it's based on what you're saying about how some people have kind of reacted to the story. I do think maybe some explicit kind of expl. Like, like Lily explicitly laying out why she finds it so difficult and complicated to. To leave a relationship like that. Maybe saying it out loud would have made it easier because I like, to me, I infer all of that obvious. Like, to me, it's just obvious from the store how the story works and what I know about relationships that, like, obviously that's what's going on in her head. But, yeah, I do think that it's. [02:17:08] Speaker B: But I, I, I do. I, I do think that a lot of people need that spelled out. [02:17:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:17:13] Speaker B: And I, And I feel like Colleen Hoover knew that. [02:17:19] Speaker A: Yeah. That's fair. Yeah. All right, let's go ahead and find out what Katie thought was better in the movie. My life has taught me one lesson, [02:17:27] Speaker B: Hugo, and not the one I thought it would. [02:17:31] Speaker A: Happy endings only happen in the movies. [02:17:34] Speaker B: I thought you were a crypto, bro. Pretty good. [02:17:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:17:37] Speaker B: That's pretty good. [02:17:38] Speaker A: Modern. Is that modernizing the story from 2016? Because he does look like a crypto. [02:17:43] Speaker B: He does look like a crypto. Row. There's a plot point in the book where she hurts her ankle working in the flower shop before they meet Brile again. And that's the reason why, like, Lily has our Alyssa has him come over because he's like, oh, my brother's a doctor. He can look at your ankle. But I'm fine. I was fine with eliminating that because it was not super consequential to the plot, like, at all. [02:18:11] Speaker A: All. [02:18:13] Speaker B: I did like the bit where he seductively put the pajama shirt on her. I thought that was fine. Yeah, you know, fun. Do I have this in the right section? Whatever. [02:18:26] Speaker A: Yeah, it feels like this. Probably better. [02:18:28] Speaker B: It feels like a better. In the book, the moment where teenage Lily and Atlas have an exchange about using a condom felt like a studio note to make sure that the movie was responsibly portraying teen sex. [02:18:40] Speaker A: Yeah, could be. I thought it was also maybe. Yeah, I thought it was fine. [02:18:44] Speaker B: Like, it's fine. [02:18:45] Speaker A: It didn't feel out of place to [02:18:46] Speaker B: me, but I also thought it kind of felt like a studio note could be. Alyssa announcing her pregnancy was spot on. The movie nailed that. But I think the movie made the right call to skip her telling Lily that she was having trouble getting pregnant. In the book, she tells her that, and then literally, like, a scene later, she's pregnant. So why did we have that in there? It felt like an early idea that got changed. [02:19:16] Speaker A: It was gonna go somewhere. [02:19:17] Speaker B: Yeah, it was gonna go somewhere, and then they forgot to take it out, and she just, like, gets pregnant, like, a scene later. [02:19:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:19:26] Speaker B: The book has a kind of a running recurring message of there are no bad people, just people who do bad things. And I. I have complicated feelings about that. [02:19:39] Speaker A: It's. I also have complicated feelings about that because I don't disagree with it in principle, but I also think saying it like, that isn't necessarily useful or good. [02:19:46] Speaker B: Yeah. And. And particularly in this story, it feels a lot like a way to excuse bad behavior. [02:19:53] Speaker A: Yes. [02:19:54] Speaker B: And I also, personally am of the belief that there are bad people, so. [02:20:00] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I. It's. That's where I think it gets. I think it's too complicated to. To boil down to a sentence. Like, I agree, personally, I agree at my core with that sentiment is that I don't think there are evil people other than, again, people with. But even then, I don't think they're evil because they don't. Because their brains are maybe broken or whatever. But I agree with the sentiment that there aren't, like, bad people in the sense that, like, there's something, like, fundamentally wrong or corrupt or evil within them or whatever, blah, blah, blah. There are just people who do bad things. But that is what makes a person a bad person. So it's like this cyclical thing. It's like. Okay, I get what you're saying, but also. So a bad person is somebody who just does a bunch of bad things over, like. [02:20:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:20:42] Speaker A: You know, you, you, you, you. The thing from Doctor Who. You. You. You put all the good things in one bucket and the bad things in the other bucket. And, like, you know, if they. If you do a lot of bad things. Yeah. You're a bad person. That's what it means to be a bad person. Yeah. Doesn't mean you can't change, but that you will. You fit the descriptor of a bad person at that point. [02:21:01] Speaker B: Right. [02:21:01] Speaker A: So, like, I. Yeah, it's. It's a weird. It's like this. Yeah. It's. It's too pithy to be true. To the extent that it's. To the extent that it's clever, it's not true. And to the extent that it's true, it's not clever. So, like. [02:21:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I have one more thing here that I forgot to write down. In the epilogue, in the book, she's co parenting with Ryle and, like, dropping the baby off with him and. Absolutely not. No, no. And. And the. The epilogue is vague, so maybe the idea is that there's somebody who's going to be with him or. Yeah. Some super. Yeah. Don't, Don't. Don't leave your children with a man who has uncontrollable bouts of rage. [02:21:45] Speaker A: Yes. [02:21:45] Speaker B: Don't do that. [02:21:46] Speaker A: Don't. Absolutely not. No. Yeah. It's one thing, the way the movie ends up being like, hey, you can be involved in this child's life in a very specific way that she lays out. Fine, whatever. That's. You want to deal with that, that's fine. But, yeah, here's you. It's your weekend with the baby rage guy. Like, that's. No, no, no. [02:22:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Here, take. Take my infant guy who routinely blacks out and throws things. [02:22:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. All right, let's go ahead and talk about what the movie nailed. As I expected. [02:22:18] Speaker B: Practically perfect in every way. The whole. The whole naked truth thing is from the book. Ryle doesn't do relationships. Just one night stands. That is also from the book. [02:22:29] Speaker A: Book. [02:22:30] Speaker B: The scene where she sees Atlas leaving the abandoned house and then leaves food for him. Pretty spot on. Alyssa walking in just as she's cleaning. As she's cleaning the florist shop and invites herself to a job. [02:22:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:22:45] Speaker B: Also from the book, Ryle does invite himself out to dinner with her mom. What a pair of siblings we have there yeah, just. Just inviting themselves into things. Things. The scene where Atlas is baking cookies, also from the book. And then her dad catching her with Atlas and beating him to the point that they needed to call an ambulance. Also from the book. Also, like, the most kind of cartoonish the book ever felt. [02:23:13] Speaker A: Okay. [02:23:15] Speaker B: I don't know if that's the right word for it, but you know what I mean. [02:23:21] Speaker A: No, I'm not sure if I do. [02:23:25] Speaker B: I think it was the most kind of, like, maybe mellow, dramatic. [02:23:31] Speaker A: It felt maybe a little exaggerated, maybe. [02:23:33] Speaker B: Yeah, A little. [02:23:34] Speaker A: A little over the top. Beats him almost to death. [02:23:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Like with a baseball bat. Like, it. It felt just the most. A little over the top that the book ever felt to me. [02:23:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:23:47] Speaker B: Atlas does reveal that he was planning to kill himself as a teenager. Stranger. And also the line, if you find yourself in a position to fall in love again. Fall in love with me. [02:23:58] Speaker A: Yeah, I didn't love that line. Whatever that that was. It gets back to the thing of. Of it. The same thing with ending with him and stuff. Like, ending with her, like, reuniting with him. I'm just like. That's feels like not the point of the story. [02:24:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:24:13] Speaker A: The point of the story is not, oh, she finds a good guy. The point of the story, she realizes she should be with this bad guy and that he is a bad guy. That's the point. And especially when it's a guy we saw also seemingly is, you know, a bit of a hothead. It just doesn't, to me, quite work. But that's where it does fall into kind of like, paternalistic, like, patriarchal kind of like, well, she has to end up with a guy, so at least it's this guy. [02:24:35] Speaker B: I am just. Then, like, I'm. When did that book come out? 2022. [02:24:41] Speaker A: That's way after. [02:24:42] Speaker B: That's a good long gap. But I am still, like, very convinced that she just wanted to write a sequel. [02:24:47] Speaker A: Cool. Yeah. [02:24:48] Speaker B: And was, like, laying the ground for that. [02:24:51] Speaker A: That's fair. All right. We got a handful of odds and ends before we get to the final verdict. I mean, we talked about this, but, boy, her parents had a hell of a sense of humor naming their daughter Lily Blossom Bloom. [02:25:11] Speaker B: Yeah, right? [02:25:12] Speaker A: Insane. [02:25:12] Speaker B: I'm the Blossom. Awesome is the crazy part. Yeah, that's the. That's the insane part. [02:25:16] Speaker A: To me, even just Lily blue. [02:25:18] Speaker B: Although I guess once you. Once you. [02:25:20] Speaker A: Once you're at Lily blue. [02:25:21] Speaker B: Yeah, once you're at Lily, I guess you might as well full send it. [02:25:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. It Also feels way too. I don't know. I'm blanking on the right word. Way too. [02:25:37] Speaker B: Tweet. [02:25:39] Speaker A: Yeah. It's not the word I'm looking for, but it's close enough. No, I don't. [02:25:45] Speaker B: I have no idea. [02:25:46] Speaker A: Just the word for when somebody is like. They're like, you know, they're playful and fun and blah, blah, blah. And whimsical. Whimsical. That's the word. Thank you. It's way too whimsical. It's pretty whimsical for what we know about her dad. [02:26:00] Speaker B: True. [02:26:01] Speaker A: That's the thing that's weird to me. [02:26:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:26:03] Speaker A: But, I mean, I guess you can assume her mom named her. [02:26:06] Speaker B: Maybe. Yeah. Maybe her dad didn't care. [02:26:08] Speaker A: Yeah. And just. He didn't care. But it does seem like a thing that kind of goes against his personality from the very little we know of him in the movie. [02:26:15] Speaker B: Yeah, that's. Yeah. We also kind of talked about this, but the fact that Justin Baldoni cast himself as Ryle really should have been the first red flag for him. [02:26:29] Speaker A: I will say. I don't. This is where my listening to the podcast about all this bullshit would help. There's some mention of the casting. I don't remember if he cast himself. Himself or if he wanted somebody else to play the role. And then that person dropped out. And so either way, he put himself in that role at some point. [02:26:46] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, he directed, so he had some kind of call there. [02:26:51] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. [02:26:53] Speaker B: The other thing that I keep thinking about in regards to, like, all of the. The drama with the cast and everything is that he went. He went to all these lengths to, like, do a smear campaign against Blake Lively, when actually all he had to do was claim he was method acting. [02:27:17] Speaker A: That's true. Yeah. [02:27:18] Speaker B: I mean, am I wrong? [02:27:21] Speaker A: Like, could have just done that. He could have pulled the Jared Leto. [02:27:25] Speaker B: Yeah, he could have just pulled the Jared Leto defense. Oh, I'm just a method actor, really. [02:27:29] Speaker A: Getting in character as Rylee. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaking of Baldoni, I don't think I've ever seen someone smoke less convincingly on camera than Justin Baldoni in that roof scene. Yeah. Holy shit. [02:27:43] Speaker B: We also never see him smoke again. [02:27:45] Speaker A: No. Because that was the only time he did it, and it looked ridiculous because he clearly is not a smoker. [02:27:51] Speaker B: He watched the footage back and was like, nah. [02:27:53] Speaker A: Yeah. I feel like. Because he looks absurd smoking a cigarette, he. He doesn't inhale. Like, it just. It looks ridiculous. Maybe I'm just really high. I'm really Keyed in on it because we've been watching Mad Men, so I have a lot of reference points of watching people smoke cigarettes on camera lately. But holy shit, he is horrible at it. I was dying at how. How much. He clearly was not a smoker during that scene. I don't think I would be better at it. I'm also not a smoker, but it just was cracking me up. [02:28:26] Speaker B: The actress who plays young Lily Holy looks so much like Blake Lively. [02:28:31] Speaker A: Unbelievable. Yeah, they found. I mean. I mean, Hollywood's pretty good at this. We talk about this all the time and stuff. We watch. We're like, holy shit, that person. But, oh, my God, she looks exact. And especially finding out that the birthmark on her, like, the mole is like, it's in the exact same spot. [02:28:47] Speaker B: It's like they grew her in a lab. [02:28:48] Speaker A: It really is, because even just the mole is one. Like, the birthmark or whatever is one thing, but she just looks. Looks exactly like her. It's crazy. I think she might have been wearing contacts because that's a big part of Is her eye color is, like, very unique. She might have been wearing contacts, but even either way, it is crazy. She also just did a really good job of, like, her mannerisms and stuff. I thought, like, the way she talks. I thought she did a really good job of just kind of capturing the way, like, Blake Lively talks and stuff, or at least in this movie. But, yeah, I was blown away by how much she looked like her. It was crazy. Which is not really the same for Alice. Mean, I. I thought, like, he's fine. Like, he looks kind of like you can believe. But that was more of like a. Sure, that's just an actor. Younger guy playing this other guy. But he didn't really. Like, I wasn't like, oh, he looks just like that. [02:29:36] Speaker B: I was not blown away by that casting. [02:29:38] Speaker A: I think my last note for Odds and Ends is that I think when they were casting. What's his name? [02:29:46] Speaker B: Marshall. [02:29:47] Speaker A: Marshall. Alyssa's husband, played by Hasan Minhaj in this movie. I think they should have cast Ben Schwartz in that role because he could have played that role because he's like a goober. He's like a goofy tech guy. He could have played that role. For people who don't know Ben Schwartz from lots of things, the voice of Sonic is maybe his most popular thing now. But Jean Ralphio from Parks and Rec, if they would have cast him as Alyssa's husband, that would have been incredible stunt casting, because for people that don't know. So Alyssa is played By Jenny Slate, who plays Mona Lisa Saperstein on Parks and Rec. Who is John Ralphio? Their brother and sister. And I think he would have worked for that role and also just would have been very, very funny to see without ever acknowledging it or anything. Just have him being. And playing a very similar character to John Ralphio, I think would have been very funny. [02:30:46] Speaker B: Lily sleeps in fishnets under her PJs when they go to bed after immediately leaving the park. [02:30:53] Speaker A: He does all the sexy undressing, but he leaves his fishnets on. Puts the pajama pants on. And I was literally like. [02:30:58] Speaker B: He was like, undress. He was, like, taking off her. Her sexy glittery boots. And I was like, okay, now the fishnets. Yeah, let's see how we're gonna handle this. Because fishnets hard to take off. Also hard to put on. And they just leave them on. Yeah, they're crazy. Insane. [02:31:15] Speaker A: It is pretty absurd. [02:31:17] Speaker B: She got up after they laid down and took those fishnets off. I'm convinced. [02:31:22] Speaker A: Absolutely. [02:31:24] Speaker B: Did you catch when. I think. I think it was Atlas and Lily exchanged. You're my favorite person. [02:31:33] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. [02:31:35] Speaker B: And this. The scream. I scrumped when that happened in the book. Because guess who else says that? We do. [02:31:43] Speaker A: We do. [02:31:44] Speaker B: For years now. [02:31:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Literally, for. I mean, since the beginning of our relationship, pretty much. I mean, I don't remember when we started. [02:31:51] Speaker B: Nor do I, but we've been saying that for years. [02:31:54] Speaker A: Yeah. To be fair, I don't think that's an uncommon thing for. [02:31:57] Speaker B: I guess not. [02:31:58] Speaker A: I would imagine that's a fairly common thing for people in relationships to say, but. Yes, it is. It was. It's not a thing that everybody says, and it's the thing that we say. It was funny hearing. Hearing somebody else in a movie say it. [02:32:10] Speaker B: I realized I don't know what this [02:32:12] Speaker A: note means at all most of the [02:32:13] Speaker B: way through this movie. Movie that they keep drinking. They kept drinking Starbucks. They were drinking Starbucks throughout the whole movie, despite this being set in Boston. [02:32:23] Speaker A: What does that mean? [02:32:23] Speaker B: Boston is a Duncan town. [02:32:25] Speaker A: Oh, is it? [02:32:27] Speaker B: Yeah. That's where Duncan is from. [02:32:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Right. [02:32:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:32:30] Speaker A: Ben Affleck does the commercials. Yeah, I didn't think about that. Yeah. Because I was like. I. I was like, oh, are there, like, famously no Starbucks in Boston? So I, like, Googled. I, like, was like, starbucks, Boston? And there's like, oh, yeah, there's Starbucks. [02:32:44] Speaker B: Yeah. No, there's Starbucks there, but Boston is a Dunkin Town. [02:32:47] Speaker A: Okay, fair enough. I didn't think about that. [02:32:49] Speaker B: And then I was like. [02:32:50] Speaker A: I was thinking about it and well, you know what? Starbucks paid a bunch of money to be the coffee in this Boston movie. [02:32:57] Speaker B: But then I was also thinking about it and I was like, maybe that's like a meta reference to the fact that they're all transplants. [02:33:06] Speaker A: That. Yeah, they are. [02:33:07] Speaker B: They're not native Bostonians. [02:33:09] Speaker A: They're not Bostonians. So yeah, that could be. It's funny. [02:33:14] Speaker B: This movie also has the classic post assault shower scene. [02:33:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:33:19] Speaker B: My least favorite movie trope if there ever was one. [02:33:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. The only one of those that. What? [02:33:26] Speaker B: Sorry to end that on a depressing note. [02:33:28] Speaker A: The only one of those that's any good and it's not because it's not an assault scene is the one in Casino Rock Royale. It's not. I mean, because she wasn't. She just saw something violent and horrible. But I. I like that scene. But yeah, and it's. It. Yeah, it is the kind of classic. Yeah. Before we get to the final verdict, we wanted to remind you you can do us a favor by heading over to Facebook threads, Blue Sky, Instagram, Goodreads, any of those places. Leave us a comment. We would love to hear your. I'm really looking forward to hearing people's opinions on this. I. I'll warn you now, we might argue with you, but I would like to hear them because you can argue with us, tell us we're wrong. [02:33:58] Speaker B: Wrong. [02:33:59] Speaker A: But yeah, I would love to hear people's opinions on. It ends with us. You can write those over on all of our social media platforms. You can also help us out by heading over to Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to our show. Drop us a five star rating, write us a nice little review that helps us get out to more people. You can Support [email protected] ThisFilmIsLit get access to bonus content starting at the $5 level. Just put out our episode on the Bluff. The Amazon original. Original John Wick, if he was a lady pirate. That's very reductive and sexist of me. But. But it's not. But it's not wrong. It's just maybe, you know, a little dismissive and flippant in a way that's not great. But yeah, we just talked about that movie. If you want to hear our thoughts on that, you can go check those out. At Patreon, we put out a new bonus episode every single month. And if you really want to support us, you can give us 15 bucks a month. You get access to the priority recommendation link level, which means if there's a movie book that you would really love for us to talk about, support us at that level. You request it and we will add it into our schedule as soon as we can. As soon as it makes sense. We have stuff scheduled out pretty far, but we do our best to get new requests from new patrons in in a timely manner. And this in fact was a patron [02:35:09] Speaker B: request from from Nathan. [02:35:11] Speaker A: Nathan. Thank you Nathan. Genuinely. We joked about ahead of time about how you did this to torture us because of all the drama around the movie. But I do genuinely really enjoy enjoyed watching and talking about the movie. This was a good conversation, led to interesting stuff. So we appreciate it. Katie, it's time for the final verdict. [02:35:32] Speaker B: Sentence fast. [02:35:34] Speaker A: Verdict after. [02:35:35] Speaker B: That's stupid to echo your earlier sentiment, I'm afraid that my opinion on both the book and the movie is that neither are worth a fraction of the frothing rage that they seem to have inspired. Based on the cultural conversation around the book, I went in expecting something similar to Fifty Shades of Grey. Both in quality and in message. I found neither. The writing is fine. It's not amazing, but it's fine. And as for the message, I disagree with the popular take that this book romanticizes domestic violence. I think it is an earnest attempt to portray it realistically and honestly. Its biggest flaw might be doing that too well. There are some people who want every story about domestic violence to be a didactic, very special episode with a one dimensional villain and a victim who only feels correct feelings. And this book was never going to work for that type of person. The movie made some changes that I liked. Like the unreliable narrator reveal that Lily was self editing her memories of what happened and the streamlining of the magnet tattoo plot point. But I also thought that the performances were just okay and I really disliked the decision to add the graveyard scene to the end end. I'm going to give this one to the book. I think that being in Lily's point of view brings a weight to the story that isn't present in the movie. Also, I cannot stress enough how much I hated the graveyard scene. I would give it to the book for that alone. [02:37:32] Speaker A: All right Katie, what's next? [02:37:35] Speaker B: Up next we are talking about the Westing Gang, which is like a middle grade novel. [02:37:42] Speaker A: I've literally never heard of this. [02:37:44] Speaker B: I read this book when I was in like the fifth grade. I remember really loving it. It is a Newbery medal winner and it was adapted in like the 90s sometime. I've never seen the movie. I think we are going to have to do a free trial of some other movie service. Yes. To get was released, apparently both under the titles Get a Clue and the Westing game Get a Clue. Not the Lindsay Lohan movie. Okay, a different Get a Clue. We'll talk about it on the next prequel episode. [02:38:20] Speaker A: All right, well, two weeks time we'll be talking about the Westing game SL Get a Clue. And in one week's time, we'll be previewing that and dishing all that spot spicy feedback, talking about everything you guys have to say about it ends with us. Until that time, guys, gals, non binary pals, and everybody else, keep reading books, watching movies, and keep being awesome. [02:38:55] Speaker B: Sa.