Episode Transcript
[00:00:08] Speaker A: On this week's prequel episode, we follow up on our she's the man listener polls, learn about director James Ivory and preview Morris.
Hello and welcome back to another prequel episode of this Film is Lit podcast where we talk about movies that are based on books. It's a nice full prequel episode. We have all of our segments, so we're gonna jump right into our patron shoutouts.
[00:00:36] Speaker B: I put up with you because your father and mother were our finest patrons. That's why.
[00:00:40] Speaker A: No new patrons this week. But we do have our Academy Award winning patrons and they are Nicole Global, Eric Harpo Rat, Nathan Vic Apocalypse, Mathilde Cottonwood, Steve, Teresa Schwartz, Ian from wine Country, Kelly Napier, Gratch, Just Gretch. Shelby says once Upon a Time fans remember when Josh Dallas was Biber Bieber tonic, that darn skag and the Frank.
What does that mean?
[00:01:09] Speaker B: I don't know. We watched Once Upon a Time. All of it.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: Like, not the last, not the.
[00:01:14] Speaker B: Well, we didn't. We didn't watch the very last season, but that was like a soft reboot season anyway, so it doesn't count. But we. We watched all of it, like, not.
[00:01:23] Speaker A: That long ago, the last two years, over the course.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: And I have no idea what that means.
[00:01:27] Speaker A: I googled it and I couldn't figure out what it means.
[00:01:30] Speaker B: So, Shelby, you're gonna have to tell us. What?
[00:01:34] Speaker A: Is that how you spell Justin Bieber?
[00:01:35] Speaker B: No, Bieber is B, E. B, I.
[00:01:37] Speaker A: E. That's what I thought. So it's spelled different. I don't know what that means.
[00:01:41] Speaker B: I don't know what it means.
[00:01:43] Speaker A: Is there. I can't think of a character with that name. I don't.
Anyways, please let us know, Shelby, because I have no idea what that's referring to. And we just watched that show not that long ago. But now we're gonna get into our listener poll follow up for she's the Man.
[00:02:00] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, that's just like your opinion, man. On Patreon. We had four votes for the book and three for the movie. Nathan said, I was very nervous, as I always am when y'all do my pick, that this movie wouldn't hold up, especially given the playing with gender identity. But as y'all said, I think it does hold up. I think the chemistry between Amanda Bynes and Channing Tatum is fantastic. It's definitely only trying to capture the vibe, not the full plot of Twelfth Night, but I think it does a good job. The Malvolio plotline did nothing for me in the play, so I'm glad to have it gone. I do think that the movie deserves to be so much more queer. And I'm on board for all of the LGBTQIA remakes that will probably only ever live in my heart. As far as the play, it falls right square in the middle of my Shakespeare bias. I just can't get into his works. It's been years since I read one. I hoped I had, but I even happened to get the SparkNotes copy and still found it slow and hard to get through. This is a me problem because anytime you make Shakespeare modern at all, I love it. I think that just means the plot must appeal to me. It's just the reading that bothers me. So we had a couple people express kind of similar ish thoughts.
Here's the thing. And we didn't get to talk about this in the main episode at all, but we talked about it the last time we covered a play when we talked about rope.
It's not meant to be read, right?
[00:03:33] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:03:34] Speaker B: If you are sitting there reading a Shakespeare play and you're bored and you're struggling with it, congratulations, you're normal.
[00:03:40] Speaker A: Yeah. It's not.
[00:03:41] Speaker B: It's not supposed to be read. It's not designed to be read. It's designed to be performed and viewed.
[00:03:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:48] Speaker B: So if you are somebody that struggles to read Shakespeare, just watch it. Yeah, just like go on YouTube and find a performance of it and watch it.
[00:04:00] Speaker A: It is literally. It's not the exact same thing. Obviously it's different, but it's like. It's like reading sheet music for a song and being like, I don't know, I don't really like this song. It's like, well, did you like. If you didn't listen to it, it's not really like. And again, it's not the exact same thing, but like, it's not really designed to be consumed that way.
[00:04:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
And especially with, you know, even something like rope, where we're talking about, like mid century theater is a little bit easier to read as a novel because there's a lot more like stage direction and the sides.
[00:04:34] Speaker A: As theater got grew into the modern era more and more, it probably adapte more and more things from things like screenplays and just novels in general. So it was kind of modernized into a form that is at least, at.
[00:04:46] Speaker B: Least a little more consumable. The same way that you might consume a novel. Like, you know, as we progress forward with theater, you even get a lot of like character work in the notes for the play. Whereas, you know, Shakespeare, he's writing in the early modern era. It's pretty much just dialogue. There's very little even like, stage direction. Basically just exits and entrances and the occasional stabbing.
[00:05:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: So Nathan continued with all told, I gotta go with the movie. Thanks for doing my suggestion. I picked it after y'all discussed 10 things I hate about you on Patreon. Bonus episodes available for just $5 a month. 10 out of 10 would recommend.
[00:05:28] Speaker A: Thanks for the plug. We just dropped our new episode today as you're listening to us. If you want to hear us talk about Dinner in America, we had been teasing on here, by the way, that we were going to be doing a ghost story. We explain why we didn't do a ghost story in the beginning of our Dinner in America episode. But if for some reason you've been hearing people talk about Dinner in America, which had had a little bit of a resurgence over the last couple years, I found out after we did this, I started, like, doing some, like, third theater runs. It kind of gathered, like, a cult following. It originally came out in, like 2020.
[00:05:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:56] Speaker A: Didn't really. It just kind of played in festivals. But it picked up some steam in recent years as people started finding it. Apparently it blew up on TikTok.
[00:06:02] Speaker B: Like, yeah, I did not know that the original song from it, like, blew up on TikTok.
[00:06:07] Speaker A: And like, also apparently some scenes and stuff once people started, like, watching the movie. So I didn't know it kind of had a recent resurgence. I just picked it because I heard about it and put it on my watch list a while ago. So. But if you want to hear us talk about dinner in America, go check it out on Patreon.
[00:06:23] Speaker B: And Nathan's final comment here was y'all mentioned doing that film 10 Things I Hate about yout on the regular show. Still a good idea. And it inspired me to suggest my favorite Shakespeare adaptation.
[00:06:35] Speaker A: Well, now, having done one, I think we probably could.
[00:06:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we could do it.
[00:06:39] Speaker A: But it'll be a while since we just did it as a bonus episode.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: Our next comment was from Shelby, who said, anytime I want to read Shakespeare, I choose SparkNotes no Fear editions. They have the entire play twice the original, side by side with a modern translation, complete with notes on the historical references. As someone who never took a class on Shakespeare, I find them immensely helpful. By the time I reach the end, I've usually picked up the language enough that I don't really need the translation. If anyone's feeling intimidated trying to read Shakespeare, I highly recommend them.
I also like the no Fear Editions. I did buy one for this, I didn't end up needing it.
I referenced it, like, twice, maybe, just to see how it compared to the original text. My preference is Folgers Editions, because that's what I read in school and that's what I'm used to. Just, like, used to the format of them. No fear, though. A little bit controversial among, like, teachers and stuff. Yeah. Not everybody likes them.
[00:07:43] Speaker A: That the. The actual, like, modern adaptation isn't accurate or something.
[00:07:48] Speaker B: Or more like.
[00:07:49] Speaker A: Or translation, I guess.
[00:07:50] Speaker B: I don't know if I would say accurate so much as just like. I think it would be for some, a preference to, like, approach the original language as the original language. Do you see what I'm saying?
[00:08:04] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:08:06] Speaker B: I'm not saying I say by that, I'm just saying moderately controversial.
[00:08:12] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. I mean, I could.
I could understand the viewpoint of being like, hey, try it without that first. See what you think. But, like, if you get to a point, like with Nathan, where it's like, I can't. Yeah, again. And then on top of that, the whole thing, like you said, it's not even designed to be consumed that way, so who cares? For me, I'm like, it's not really designed to be read as a. As a novel anyway. So the fact that I'm reading a version that also has, like, a, you know, a modern translation of it, to me, it doesn't. You're already just reading the original version is already not really consuming the media in its desired or intended format. So then adding a translation next to it, to me, doesn't really change. I mean, again, I think it's good to try. But the fact that it has. Here's what I say, like, if you want it. I think I understand being like, hey, don't just read a modern translation of it, because it doesn't really capture.
[00:09:05] Speaker B: Yeah, you're not really capturing what Shakespeare is.
[00:09:08] Speaker A: But if it is a version where it has them both right next to each other, where you can look back and forth and, you know, you can try to mainly read this, then it's.
[00:09:14] Speaker B: Like, okay, that's, you know, whatever Shelby went on to say, Twelfth Night is one I don't have strong opinions on, except Boo. The gay guy puts his life on the line for love, and he's the only one who doesn't get a happily ever after. I was surprised it didn't come up in the episode justice for Antonio. I don't know who that is. Antonio is a character that shows up alongside Sebastian. He saves Sebastian from drowning, and then they arrive, like, in the scene in the setting of the play together. And we didn't really talk about him because he doesn't have like a direct analog within she's the Man.
[00:09:55] Speaker A: Okay, okay, that's. I thought you were describing characters in the movie. When you said saves Sebastian from drowning, I was like, did I have a stroke? When did that happen in the.
[00:10:03] Speaker B: No, I'm talking about in the play. Okay, but here's so part of the reason it didn't come up is because he doesn't have a direct analog. So, okay, he just didn't come up.
[00:10:13] Speaker A: Right.
[00:10:13] Speaker B: But the other reason I think circles might could circle back around to the no Fear edition because I didn't interpret Antonio as a gay character when I read the play.
[00:10:27] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:10:28] Speaker B: So, and I'm not saying that definitely is because of the no Fear, because I didn't read that version, but I would be interested to like flip back through it and see if maybe more of that vibe comes through in the modern translation. Shelby's final comment here was I liked she's the man back in the day. It's one of those movies I watched with my high school friends. I'd forgotten that after all this work to get on the boys team, she needs her guy love interest to teach her how to play soccer. Boo. Again, that undermines the whole point of the movie. For that, I'm giving it to the play.
[00:11:00] Speaker A: It did feel a little bit like.
[00:11:02] Speaker B: They'Re like, we can't.
[00:11:04] Speaker A: Guys, let's all be honest here. I know we're making this movie where the whole point of it is that she's just as competitive and she can compete with the boys, but let's be real, girls can't really compete. That feels a little bit like what.
[00:11:16] Speaker B: That feels like what the vibe was.
[00:11:17] Speaker A: Yeah, like, let's be real, guys. He needs to teach her how to play soccer at least.
[00:11:22] Speaker B: And I know that, like, I understand that the movie also wanted an excuse for them to hang out together all the time.
[00:11:28] Speaker A: And I think they also, as a screenwriter, like, okay, well, she's teaching him something.
[00:11:32] Speaker B: Yeah, we want to make it a little easier.
[00:11:34] Speaker A: Two way relationship work.
[00:11:36] Speaker B: I think they could have handled it differently to where, like, she was like, primarily it was her helping him. Like, we get like, maybe a little bit of like a Cyrano de Bergerac kind of a vibe in there where like, she's helping him more directly and then maybe he could just teach her how to do a cool trick that she doesn't know or something like that.
[00:11:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Or maybe there's some specific Element.
[00:12:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Some specific thing that she struggles with.
[00:12:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:04] Speaker B: Not just, like, literally, broadly.
[00:12:06] Speaker A: Yes. Like, broadly. Like, you're just not good enough. Like, I just got to make you a better soccer player like that. Like, he just broadly has to, like, teach her to be better at soccer generally, where. Yeah. If it was, like, one thing where, like, she's really. And here you go. Here's a tight end in order to be. Which doesn't really make sense for soccer, but, like, you could. Who cares? It's for this. It's irrelevant. Have it be a thing where she's, like, really bad at penalty kicks.
[00:12:28] Speaker B: There you go.
[00:12:29] Speaker A: She's like, she can't do it. She gets a mental block for some or whatever. Like, she has, like, some issue with penalty kicks. And that wouldn't be that big a deal because, like, somebody else would just take the penalty kick. You could still be on the first team. Only one person takes a penalty kick usually. So it's not that big a deal. But let's just. Whatever. Who cares? Take that out of there. Say, like, hey, you're gonna be our striker. You need to be able to take a penalty kick. And she has this mental block for it, so he has to, like, help her through that. But, like, generally, she's still good at everything else. She's just. This is the one thing. Or you know what I mean? Like, that maybe. And then. Cause then that ties into the end. Like, if she's gonna take a penalty kick or make it better, make it be a set piece. But that's maybe too detailed for this kind of movie to, like, get into the soccer nuances of, like. But whatever. There's a way to do it, and it's just. Yeah.
[00:13:10] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know what you mean when you say set piece, so that probably is a little too nuanced.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: You do know what I mean. It. Set pieces just. In soccer, when there's a penalty and then the ball gets put somewhere, and then the team that, like, who got fouled gets to kick the ball from there. And so it happens. It can happen anywhere on the field. So, like. And it can be a big play because sometimes it can happen very close to the goal where it's almost. It's not as close. It's different from a penalty kick in that you're. You're there get to be defenders between.
[00:13:39] Speaker B: Oh, that's like, when they all stand in the line.
[00:13:42] Speaker A: Yes. Where they all stand in line. And. And so, like, set pieces are a very important part of soccer that. That she might need to be good at and maybe she, you know, like it's, it's a specific type of skill and so like maybe you would have her or whatever like that.
[00:13:56] Speaker B: You all didn't know Brian liked soccer?
[00:13:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know. I, I do. I, I'm a big city SC fan. I didn't used to be a big soccer fan, but since St. Louis got a team, I know very little about the tactics but I know the rules and general stuff enough to like, you know, comment on this.
[00:14:15] Speaker B: All right, our last comment on Patreon was from Kelly Napier, who said since this came out in 2006, I was just outside of the target age audience, so I had never seen this movie before. It was silly and tropey and all the things I would expect it to be considering the time period in which it was released, but I really enjoyed it. That being said, Shakespeare is Shakespeare and his works are iconic for a reason. Being completely transparent, I've never been able to easily parse out what he's saying, so I did have to pull out the Spark notes to make sure I totally knew what was going on. But listening to this made me laugh out loud in a number of spots.
I was finding myself torn between picking the movie or the book until right at the end of the movie when for no seeming reason whatsoever, Duke pulls out the Summer Born. Great line. It felt like such a forced attempt to remind people of what the movie is based on. It tipped my hand in favor of the book.
[00:15:13] Speaker A: That's fair, that's fair. I thought it worked okay. It's very cheesy.
[00:15:18] Speaker B: I thought it was pretty cheesy. It wasn't the worst part, it wasn't.
[00:15:21] Speaker A: The worst way to pretty cheesy and it wasn't the worst way. I don't even think it was necessarily the worst way to put it in there, but it was pretty ham fisted still.
[00:15:30] Speaker B: All right, over on Facebook we had three votes for the book and one for the boo, one for the movie and Mladin said, my vote goes to the play Twelfth Night. While both the play and the movie share a similar plot, the play was quite progressive for its time. There weren't many plays featuring a capable female protagonist who cross dressed as a man or even just as a strong female character. In general, the movie she's the man is a very entertaining, funny movie, but we had a lot of teen comedy movies and movies where the main character, mostly men, cross dressed all the time back then. Not to mention there was an 80s movie, just one of the Guys, which had a similar plot to the 2006 movie more specifically.
[00:16:16] Speaker A: And I did not mention this, there's a movie that came out like three years before this that is also basically just a Twelfth Night adaptation.
It's a dcom.
Oh, motocross.
[00:16:28] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:16:30] Speaker A: Motocross.
[00:16:31] Speaker B: I've seen motocross when I was doing.
[00:16:32] Speaker A: Prequel research that was referenced in the notes for this about it being like this plots being very similar and it basically being like a Twelfth Night kind of thing. But yeah, motocross is about a girl who pretends to be a boy to like race motocross or whatever.
[00:16:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: Which is even more like believable. Or not believable, but like the concept because she's wearing a helmet the whole time. So it's like, you know, it's a little bit easier.
[00:16:53] Speaker B: A little bit easier to blend in.
[00:16:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:59] Speaker B: Went on to say about the movie, just one of the guys. The only difference is the female is an aspiring journalist who feels that her teachers do not take her articles seriously because of her good looks. After failing to obtain her dream job as a newspaper intern, she concludes that it is because she is a girl. She enrolls as a boy named Terry at arrival high school, her real identity only known to her sex obsessed younger brother, Buddy.
[00:17:25] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:17:26] Speaker B: And her best friend, Denise. That's all I have to say.
[00:17:30] Speaker A: All right. That's all I have to say about that.
[00:17:32] Speaker B: Thank you for providing an entertaining podcast every week.
[00:17:35] Speaker A: You're welcome. Thank you. I have not heard of just one.
[00:17:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I've never heard of that over on Instagram. We had two votes for the book, three for the movie, and three listeners who couldn't decide. All right, we had a comment from Tim Wahoo. And I usually don't read his comments because they always say the same thing, even when they're wrong.
[00:17:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:56] Speaker B: But I wanted to read this one because this week he wrote Katie is always the book. And this is the first time I have transmogrified into the book, which I kind of like. Yes, I have become book.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: You are no longer picking the book. You are book.
[00:18:12] Speaker B: All right. Over on Goodreads, we had one vote for the book, zero for the movie, and Miko said I might get some flack for this, but I read a translation of the play. I would not give you flack for that, Miko. I agree with the included introduction. Translating plays is a hopeless task where we inevitably abuse the original. But I was reading this for the plot in a hurry. I started with the original Old English one.
[00:18:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:43] Speaker B: And found myself having to Stop and think about every second word. I simply did not have enough time to internalize the story without switching languages.
[00:18:52] Speaker A: Oh, that's right. And on top of that, not even translated from we're talking trans. Because Mikko is not a native English speaker.
[00:18:59] Speaker B: I believe that is correct.
[00:19:01] Speaker A: Speaks very good English clearly, but. Or at least writes it very good.
[00:19:04] Speaker B: But yeah, yeah, no, that's totally fair.
That said, I have a big overarching complaint. The pretending to be a boy thing is the least entertaining part of both stories. The movie hit some weird tone where it worked for me, but only when Viola wasn't actively pretending to be a boy.
[00:19:23] Speaker A: I would agree with that. Like I said, I thought there are moments that work, but it's all of the stuff. Not when she's doing the boy voice stuff.
[00:19:31] Speaker B: And like Katie said, Shakespeare seems to enjoy his B plot more. And so did I. The whole gist of the play lacks reason and is utilized so little that it feels like a waste. Maybe 400 years ago, simply having a woman dress up as a man was enough for some comedy, but even the ending is just a case of mistaken identity and doesn't even rely on the woman as a man gimmick. Though it's good to see a mathematically true love triangle and not just a love angle.
I will give my vote for the play, but mainly because of its historical significance and being something many things have built upon.
[00:20:06] Speaker A: Oh, right. So I just put together what mathematically true love triangle means. Is that all three partners in the triangle are attracted to each other in different ways, as opposed to just two being attracted to one, which would create an angle and not a. I got it. I got it. It took me a second to figure out what he was saying there, but I got it.
Like, because people would refer to like a Twilight as a love triangle, but I mean, sure, but like, because the.
[00:20:34] Speaker B: Lines don't actually form.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: Edward and the triangle, Edward and Jacob are not.
[00:20:39] Speaker B: So they say.
[00:20:40] Speaker A: Yes. At least not in the canon.
[00:20:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I will give my vote for the play, but mainly because of its historical significance and being something many things have built upon, like the movie, and not really because of my own enjoyment.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: Fair enough.
Very objective of you.
[00:20:58] Speaker B: All right, so our winner this week was the Play by a Hare, with 10 votes to the movie's eight, plus three listeners who couldn't decide.
[00:21:10] Speaker A: All right, thank you all very much for your comments and your votes. Now, we've done a few of his movies before, but for the first time, we're going to learn a little bit about James Ivory.
[00:21:20] Speaker B: No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
James Ivory is an American film director, producer and screenwriter. He was a principal player in Merchant Ivory Productions along with Indian film producer Ismail Merchant, who was also Ivory's both life and professional partner.
[00:21:45] Speaker A: I had a note about that as well. Yes.
[00:21:46] Speaker B: Which I think we've mentioned before in previous.
[00:21:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:49] Speaker B: And screenwriter Ruth Pravar Jabvala.
[00:21:53] Speaker A: Boy, do I have a note about that one in relation to this movie.
[00:21:57] Speaker B: Oh, okay.
[00:21:58] Speaker A: We'll get to it.
[00:21:58] Speaker B: All right.
But James Ivory was actually born Richard Hazen, but he was adopted shortly after birth and renamed.
He grew up in Klamath Hope. I'm saying that right? Falls.
[00:22:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:13] Speaker B: Klamath Falls, Oregon. And received a degree in fine arts from the University of Oregon before attending the University of Southern California School of cinematic arts.
[00:22:23] Speaker A: USC's great. Their film school is one of the best in the country. I mean, clearly Ryan Coogler graduated from there from my understanding, because he was in.
Lindsay ellis went to USC's film school and she always talked about. I think she had classes with Ryan Coogler because they were there at the same time. Um, I was, I, I also learned today that James Ivory was an American. And it blew my mind. I 100 thought he was British. His name's James Ivory. Made A Room with a View. And what was the other one we.
[00:22:53] Speaker B: Did that remains of the day?
[00:22:55] Speaker A: Yeah, like it's the most, like the.
[00:22:57] Speaker B: Most British thing you've ever seen.
[00:22:58] Speaker A: I have a note about it. I'll get you later. But I had no. I literally today when I read that, I was like, wait, he's American.
[00:23:05] Speaker B: So. Ivory met producer Ismail Merchant at a screening of Ivory's documentary the Sword and the flute in 1959.
I wonder.
[00:23:18] Speaker A: Fascinating title.
[00:23:19] Speaker B: Anyway, a few years later, they formed the film production company Merchant Ivory Productions. Merchant and Ivory became life, long term life partners, commencing a professional and romantic relationship that continued until Merchant's death in 2005.
And actually their professional partnership is in the Guinness Book of World Records for the longest partnership in independent cinema history.
[00:23:50] Speaker A: So I believe it's a documentary about Indian art.
[00:23:54] Speaker B: Okay, that makes sense.
[00:23:55] Speaker A: It says Ivory's second documentary, the Sword and the Flute, also dealing with schools of art, grew out of his experience in making Venice Theme and Variations. Only here, instead of photographing works by the Italian masters, he has used superb examples of Indian miniature paintings.
His intelligent script, narrated with feeling by Saeed Jaffrey, traces the history of Indian miniature painting after the Mogul invasion as it develops into two Principal schools, the Mogul Muslim and the Rajput Hindu School. So it's about, like, an art movement in India or something.
[00:24:27] Speaker B: That's cool. Very niche, but very pretty niche. Yeah, but, well, niche.
[00:24:34] Speaker A: Billions of people, but, like, you know what I mean? A very subset of. A subset of an art movement in India or whatever. Yeah.
[00:24:42] Speaker B: So in 1985, Ivory directed their film adaptation of A Room with a View, which we covered in 2002.
[00:24:52] Speaker A: Yep. No, we didn't. 2022.
[00:24:55] Speaker B: Yes. 2022.
[00:24:56] Speaker A: You said 2002. I was like, dude, well, we haven't been doing it that long.
[00:25:00] Speaker B: I'm sending us way back.
[00:25:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:03] Speaker B: It was met with Universal praise, launching Merchant Ivory Productions and James Ivory into period film household names. Other notable films they produced include Howard's End and Remains of the Day. As we said, we also covered that one. In 2022, Ivory received Academy Award Best Director nominations for all three of those films.
The 2009 film, The City of youf Final Destination was the last film produced by Merchant Ivory Productions and the only one produced without the participation of Ismail Merchant. He passed in 2005.
[00:25:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:25:43] Speaker B: But I think it's sad.
[00:25:45] Speaker A: No, I'm not saying it isn't. I just. The way you wrote that there was no mention of him being dead.
[00:25:50] Speaker B: Well, I guess because I mentioned it earlier.
[00:25:52] Speaker A: Okay, okay.
[00:25:54] Speaker B: But in 2017, Ivory wrote and co produced the film adaptation of Call Me by your Name, which we have not covered.
[00:26:02] Speaker A: No. Boy. Yeah.
[00:26:04] Speaker B: And the film was the only narrative feature he's written but not directed. And he would go on to win several awards for it, including the Academy Award and the BAFTA for Best Adapted screenplay. Then this made Ivory, at the age of 89, the oldest ever winner in any category for both awards.
[00:26:22] Speaker A: I'm sure we'll get to it eventually, but I've heard that that is a fairly controversial movie.
[00:26:27] Speaker B: I have also heard that in several.
[00:26:28] Speaker A: Ways, not only the content of the movie, but it also stars Armie Hammer, noted cannibal.
[00:26:36] Speaker B: We didn't know he was a cannibal at that time.
[00:26:38] Speaker A: No, no. Well, we didn't. I don't know who some people maybe did. I don't know. But.
[00:26:45] Speaker B: So in 2002, ivory was. I said it again. I did it again. In 2022, Ivory was honored with a Lifetime Achievement award at the 17th Rome Film Festival. And in 2023, an upcoming biographical documentary was announced about him titled James Ivory, In Search of Love and Beauty. I couldn't find an actual release date for that, so I'm not sure where it's at. In production, but there you go. Could be interesting.
[00:27:14] Speaker A: Yeah. All right, let's go now and learn a little bit as we preview the Novel Morris by E.M. forrester.
[00:27:28] Speaker B: Have you ever dream you had a friend? Something to last your whole life?
[00:27:38] Speaker A: This is Morris Hall. Welcome to Pemberton, Mr. Hall.
[00:27:50] Speaker B: Okay, so let's address the name thing.
This novel is spelled like Maurice.
[00:27:59] Speaker A: This is Americans. We would say Maurice.
[00:28:02] Speaker B: Maurice.
However, after our.
After we mentioned that we were covering this at the end of our she's the man episode, we got a comment on Patreon from Eric, who requested this, that we cover this saying that actually British people pronounce it Morris. And I'm gonna be real real with y'all. I'll try.
[00:28:27] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:28:27] Speaker B: I don't know if I'm gonna be able to look at the word Maurice and say Morris.
[00:28:32] Speaker A: I don't like it. I don't.
[00:28:33] Speaker B: I don't like it either.
[00:28:34] Speaker A: I know we've done a lot of awful things to the English language, but that name should be pronounced Maurice and not Maurice. But whatever.
[00:28:45] Speaker B: All right, I'm going to give. I'm going to give him my best shot.
Morris is a novel by English Edwardian novelist E.M. forster, who also wrote A Room with a View.
The novel is a tale of homosexual love in early 20th century England, following title character Morris hall from his school days through university and beyond.
Forster initially wrote Morris in 1913, 1914, and he would revise the ending in 1932 and then again in the 1950s, but it actually wasn't published until 1971 following the author's death.
[00:29:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:28] Speaker B: And the reason that he did not try to publish it during his lifetime was because he believed it to be unpublishable during that time period due to public and legal attitudes about same sex relationships. And this was just a little tidbit that I saw on Wikipedia. Said a note found on the manuscript read, quote, publishable but worth it. Question mark.
[00:29:55] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a fair question.
[00:29:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
And he was also determined that it needed to have a happy ending, which was apparently what specifically made him fearful that it would be liable to prosecution because at that time male homosexuality was illegal in the uk.
[00:30:16] Speaker A: Yeah, he refused to kill his gays. He was like, no, I won't. Or bury his gays.
[00:30:21] Speaker B: I will not bury my gays.
[00:30:24] Speaker A: Oh, good. For the trope even existed.
[00:30:28] Speaker B: But he did show parts of the novel to a handful of his trusted friends. And there's been some speculation over the years that it may have been seen by D.H. lawrence and influenced his 1928 novel Lady Chatterley's Lover.
Apparently I've never read that one, but apparently it has like a similar kind of relationship dynamic in it.
So Forster was an admirer of the poet, philosopher, socialist and early gay rights activist. All Things We Love. Edward Carpenter. And then following a visit to Carpenter's home in 1913, was inspired to write Morris.
The cross class relationship between Carpenter and his working class partner George Merrill presented a real life model for the two main characters.
So when the novel finally was published in 1971, critical reception was kind of mixed at best and also sounds pretty homophobic to be honest. I just have the poll quotes that are on Wikipedia, but it still feels pretty homophobic. So CP Snow, writing for the Financial Times, found the novel quote, crippled by its explicit purpose with the ending quote, artistically quite wrong, which was apparently a near universal criticism at the time.
[00:31:59] Speaker A: Just an insane thing to say. Generally artistically quite wrong.
[00:32:03] Speaker B: So I guess people thought he should have buried his gaze.
[00:32:06] Speaker A: I feel like that's what.
[00:32:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Walter Allen in the Daily Telegraph characterize it as a, quote, a thesis novel, a plea for public recognition of the homosexual.
And he said that Forrester had wasted himself doing it instead of doing an autobiographical work.
Then Michael Ratliff writing for the Times said it was quote, the least poetic, the least witty, the least dense and the most immediately realistic of Forrester's six novels.
[00:32:39] Speaker A: Is that last one a compliment? I don't maybe.
[00:32:42] Speaker B: I don't know. Yeah.
Philip Toneby in the observer. The observer said that the novel was, quote, deeply embarrassing and perfunctory to the point of painful incompetence and questioned whether there really is such a thing as a specifically homosexual sensibility.
[00:33:05] Speaker A: Bro really said this. Too gay for me. I don't know what to tell you. That's literally what his review is. He said this is too gay. I don't know.
[00:33:14] Speaker B: Toynbee went on to state that he could quote, God detect nothing particularly homosexual about Morris, other than that it happens to be about homosexuals.
[00:33:27] Speaker A: Okay, so maybe I misinterpreted that first half of the sentence because what I interpreted that first part you read whether there really is such a thing. Questioning whether there really is such a thing as specific homosexual sensibility as to him being like, you know, this feels like it must be designed for a different sensibility than me or written. But no, maybe he's actually saying like it doesn't feel gay enough. Like it's not gay enough.
[00:33:50] Speaker B: Here's what I think happened here. And again, we only have These pull quotes. So this is outside of the context of whatever else this guy wrote.
[00:33:58] Speaker A: I think I know what my brain.
[00:33:59] Speaker B: Is, that this guy read this novel expecting it to be so widely outside of the scope of his experience.
[00:34:09] Speaker A: He expected it to be capital G. Gay. Like, yes.
[00:34:12] Speaker B: And then he read it and he was like, this is just normal people. This is just normal people. Well, that can't be right.
[00:34:19] Speaker A: That's 100% right.
[00:34:20] Speaker B: That's 100%.
[00:34:21] Speaker A: 100%. He said, wait a second. These gay people are just like normal other. Like, wait a second.
[00:34:26] Speaker B: That can't be right.
[00:34:28] Speaker A: This is all wrong. It's gotta be real. Yeah. Literally said, this isn't gay enough. Actually completely wrong. He's like, this is. No, no, no. This can't be. They can't be normal people. Something wrong with this. Yeah. That's hilarious and sad.
[00:34:42] Speaker B: So, yeah.
So aside from the film that we'll be covering, the novel has also been adapted for the stage, including a 2018 run in London that was directed by James Wilby, who we'll hear about in a minute.
Yes, we will. And there is also a novel by author William Di Canzio. He wrote a retelling and continuation of the novel titled Alec, and that was published in 2021.
[00:35:15] Speaker A: All right, time now to learn a little bit about Morris the film. By continuing like this, you and I are risking everything we have. Our families, our names, any happiness there is for me. There are other ways to be happy.
[00:35:36] Speaker B: You know.
[00:35:48] Speaker A: Maurice, I hope nothing's wrong. Pretty well everything. Morris is a 1987 film directed by James Ivory, A Room With a View, the Remains of the Day, Call Me by youy Name, Howard's End, among others, and written by Kit Hesketh Harvey, who made who wrote this? And really just a few made for TV movies from the 90s, I think for the BBC. One of them stars Rowan Atkinson. So yeah. And also co written by James Ivory. The film stars James Wilby, who you mentioned earlier, Hugh Grant, Rupert Graves, Denholm Elliott, Simon Callow, Billy Whitelaw, Barry Foster, Jody Parfitt, Phoebe Nichols and Ben Kingsley. It has an 82% on Rotten Tomatoes, a 75 on Metacritic, and a 7.6 out of 10 on IMDb. And it was nominated for an Oscar for Best Costume Design and also won a handful of awards. At the Venice Film festival it made $3 million and that was listed in US against a budget of £1.5 million, so.
[00:36:45] Speaker B: Oh, that's. That's too much converting. I can't tell if that did well or not.
[00:36:49] Speaker A: It didn't do well.
[00:36:49] Speaker B: Didn't do well. Okay.
[00:36:50] Speaker A: It's also a tiny budget for a film, to be fair, but I can't imagine 3 million. Well, it depends. If they didn't do any marketing, that's not terrible. Depending on what the conversion rate is like, I don't know.
So when making A Room With a View, Ivory had ended up reading all of Forrester's works at the time and really liked Morris, saying, quote, I thought that it was interesting material and would be enjoyable to make and also something we could make in that it wouldn't require too much organ organization and wouldn't cost all that much. He continued saying, quote, people's turmoil and having to decide for themselves how they want to live and what their true feelings are and whether they're going to live honestly with them or deny them. That's no different. Nothing's any easier for young people. I felt it was quite relevant. That was him remarking on, like, the story is still relevant when he wanted to make it in the 80s. Still relevant today. Unfortunately, Forster had left the rights to the novel to the rights to the novel Morris, to King's College in Cambridge, King's College, which is part of the University of Cambridge. I learned a little bit today. I didn't realize how this all worked before. The University of Cambridge has a bunch of sub colleges within it, like 30 of them, okay? And King's College is one of them. And they all are slightly different. And anyways, I didn't know how that works. It's like a specific. I don't know if it's a British thing or just a Cambridge thing. But, yeah, University of Cambridge. There are sub, like, smaller schools within Cambridge, essentially.
And they were reluctant. Cambridge, slash. King's College was reluctant to allow the film to be adapted. According to Wikipedia, it explicitly says, not because of the subject matter, that's not because it's gay, guys. That's not why we don't want you to adapt it, but because the book is, quote, considered an inferior work, end quote.
[00:38:33] Speaker B: Now, why was it an inferior, I wonder.
[00:38:36] Speaker A: I don't know. But it was considered inferior work. And that a film adaptation would not, quote, enhance Forster's literary reputation, end quote. However, Ismail Merchant, producer and Ivory's romantic partner, life partner, as he pointed out from 1961 until his death in 2005, convinced King's College to give them the rights, partially due to their. How much they enjoyed the adaptation of A Room with a View. So apparently they saw Room with the View and they were like. And he talked them into it. So as you mentioned earlier, Ruth Pravor Jabvala was Ivory's traditional writing partner. She co wrote A Room With a View with him, Howards End, the Remains of the Day and I think others, but those, you know, some of the big ones.
This is what Wikipedia says, and we'll get to this in a second. Was busy writing her own novel at the time, so she didn't have time to co write the script with him. So he brought on Kit Hesketh Harvey to co write the script. He had been introduced. Hesketh Harvey had been introduced to Ivory and Ismail Merchant by his own sister, Sarah Sands, who was married to Julian Sands at the time, the star of.
[00:39:46] Speaker B: A Room of you, the love interest in A Room With a View.
[00:39:49] Speaker A: Yeah, Ivory would say, and I'll get to a second. But Hesketh Harvey was an alum of Cambridge and Tonebridge School, both of which were schools that Foster Forster attended. Tonebridge is like a prep school or whatever, so he went to both of the schools that Forster attended. So he had a lot of relevant background knowledge that Ivory, being an American, didn't have. And Ivory would say of this quote, what Kit brought to the script was his social background. He went to Cambridge and a fancy prep school. His knowledge of the British upper middle class, that was incredibly useful. The dialect, the speech, the slang and so many other things. As an American, and this is where my mind was blown. As an American, I could not possibly have written the script without him. End quote. Apparently Javala did give notes on the script and apparently at least one notable tweak. The difference from the book to the movie was by her suggestion.
And so we'll probably talk about that when we get to the main episode. I will add this additional note that is listed in IMDb trivia and I. I don't know how accurate is because it wasn't listed in the Wikipedia article at all. And IMDb trivia does not have sources, so. But this is like one of the top things. So I assume this comes from some interview or something.
According to the IMDb trivia effect, Javala refused to write for the script for this film because she objected to the gay relationship and found the story to be both subpar and sub Forrester.
And this is interesting obviously, because she was very close friends with both Ismail Merchant and James Ivory, who were gay, right?
Forester also gay, and Old Forester also gay. But like she's very close friends with Merchant and Ivory, who are literally two gay men in a relationship. So I need to do some more digging. I just wanted to mention that because I thought it was when I was going through the I do trivia effects, I was like, well, that's.
[00:41:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:29] Speaker A: Fascinating.
[00:41:30] Speaker B: It's. I mean, it is. It is an IMDb trivia fact.
[00:41:33] Speaker A: Yes. So.
[00:41:34] Speaker B: But also homophobic people really do be. So doing some compartmentalization.
[00:41:42] Speaker A: Bigots in general are very, very good at compartmentalizing being like, okay, well, yeah, I don't want to promote whatever, like homosexuality, but.
[00:41:50] Speaker B: But you guys are fine.
[00:41:52] Speaker A: Yeah. You're like good gays. You know, like. And again, I. We're completely speculating. I. I want to stress that I. I have to confirm that somewhere. But I. Super interesting to mention.
So Julian Sands, who we mentioned earlier, was initially cast in the titular role as Morris, but he ended up leaving the project last minute. I think he was working on another film or something. And then John Malkovich was attached to the film as well, but he backed out. Or as a. In a. In a. I think maybe as a. One of the other roles because he was friends with Julian Sands. But then when Julian Sands backed out, Ben Kingsley replaced John Malkovich. So whatever role Ben Kingsley plays was originally supposed to be John Malkovich, which I think is interesting. Hugh Grant at the time had only appeared in one film, a film called Privileged that he had made. So he was very, very fresh. At this time, Helena Bottom Carter has an uncredited cameo as an audience member at the cricket match. If you want to look out for her, she makes an appearance. The film was shot on location at King's College, which is the setting of the story. And then reading this straight from Wikipedia, I have to. Because I thought it was really, really interesting in the style of Merchant's Ivory. Because it's interesting and I didn't know how to rephrase it in the style of Merchant Ivory's A Room with a View.
Old book end papers accompany the theme music played in a minor scale at the beginning of the film and in a major scale at the end of the film to bracket it as a cinema draw. A cinematographic novel. Never heard that concept. And I didn't remember that from A Room with a View.
[00:43:31] Speaker B: I don't remember specific, like, bookends at the beginning and the end, but A Room with a View has, like. I would describe them as title cards throughout the movie that are like different chapters from the book.
[00:43:44] Speaker A: I do remember that. Yeah. Okay. I just wanted to read that so people could look out for it and think. Because I thought that was interesting, that it's a minor scale. At the beginning and then a major.
[00:43:52] Speaker B: Scale at the end. That is interesting. Yeah.
[00:43:54] Speaker A: Assuming that we follow some sort of arc arc and there's a happy ending. I would guess based on that and based on what we know from what we read in the book notes in the DVD extras, and this is an IMDb trivia fact. Hugh Grant says that he and James will be had already known each other from because they both appeared in the film privilege, the one film Hugh Grant had done at that point, and that they were able to practice their scenes together at Hugh Grant's house the night before Wilby's audition to help him get the role. And Grant says that he remembers, quote, being a surprise to my banker brother when he came home and found me kissing James Willby in the front room. And quote, which I just thought was funny.
So, getting into some reviews, the New York Times Janet Maslin said of the film, quote, the novel's focus is predominantly on the inner life of the title character. But the film, while faithful, is broader, moving slowly with a fine eye for detail. It presents the forces that shape Morse as skillfully as it brings the character to life. End quote. Claire Tomalin, writing for Sight and Sound, said the film was, quote, subtle, intelligent, moving and absorbing. Extraordinary in the way it mixes fear and pleasure, horror and love. It's a stunning success for a team who seems to have mastered all the problems of making literary films, end quote.
Which in our experience so far, both the Remains of the Day in A Room With a View were good movies and good adaptations. So for the San Francisco Chronicle, Judy Stone wrote, quote, to director James Ivory's credit, however, he has recreated that period in pre World War I England and endowed the Platonic passion between two upper middle class Englishmen with singular grace. In Morris, for the Boston Globe, Michael Blowin said, quote, the team of producer Ismael Merchant and director James Ivory have created another classy film of a classic novel with their stunning adaptation of EM Forster's Morris.
However, reception in the UK was a bit different. The Times said, so defiant a salute to homosexual passion should really be, er, questioning. Quote, so defiant a salute to homosexual passion should really be welcomed during a spiraling AIDS crisis. Question mark, like they're asking, like, should such a divine salute to homosexual passion really be welcome during spiraling AIDS crisis?
So James Ivory apparently, in a quote, attributed his negative reviews to the reviewers themselves being homosexual, saying, quote which is, I don't, I don't, I don't know. Quote. In England, where almost every important film critic was gay, they came out against the film. Their reactions to it were extraordinary. You'd think that they would have been supportive, but they were afraid to be supportive, end quote. That almost feels like a tongue in cheek. Not tongue in cheek, but, like, maybe just like he's, like, riffing on a talk show and like the part about every important film critic being gay. I feel like that might just be him being a little. A little, you know, a little sassy. Yeah. Yeah.
But finally, Roger Ebert, writing for the Chicago Sun Times, gave the film three out of four stars, saying, quote, merchant and Ivory tell this story in a film so handsome to look at and so intelligently acted that it is worth seeing just to regard the production. Scene after scene is perfectly created. A languorous afternoon floating on the river behind the Cambridge Colleges. A desultory man. He really brought out the thesaurus for this one. A desultory cricket game between masters and servants. The daily routine of college life. Visits to country estates and townhomes. The settings of the rooms. Although some people might find Will be unfocused in the title role, I thought he was making the right ch Choices, portraying a man whose real thoughts were almost always elsewhere. End quote. All right, there you go. As always, you can do us a favor by heading over to Facebook, Instagram, threads, you know, all the places interact. We'd love to hear with you from social media or hear from you on social media. You can also help us out by dropping us a review wherever you listen to us. Write us a nice little review. Drop 5 stars and you can support us at patreon patreon.com thisfilmislit. Get access to that bonus content and at the $15 level, get access to patron request requests just like this one from.
[00:47:54] Speaker B: This was a request from Eric with a K. There you go.
[00:47:58] Speaker A: Eric with a K. Thank you, Katie. Where can people watch Maurice?
[00:48:05] Speaker B: Well, as always, you can check with your local library. I have actually requested a DVD copy of this through our library's interlibrary loan program, so we'll be getting that. Or if you still have a local video rental store, you could check with them. Otherwise, you can stream this with a subscription to Kanopy, Philo, Fandor, or Cineverse.
[00:48:28] Speaker A: Aren't some of those library services?
[00:48:31] Speaker B: I think Canopy is like a library thing. Yeah. Not everybody's library has it.
[00:48:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:35] Speaker B: But I do believe it is a.
[00:48:38] Speaker A: Library thing service or something. Yeah.
[00:48:40] Speaker B: Or you can rent it for around $4 through Apple TV, Amazon, YouTube, or Fandango at home.
[00:48:48] Speaker A: There you go. I'm interested to check it Out. I've enjoyed A Room with the View. I've enjoyed the Remains of the Day and yeah, it'll be interesting to see a different version. I like Hugh Grant's Always Fun and stuff. Rupert Graves is one of the main characters who I mainly know from, like Sherlock, he's like. He plays Lestrade. Isn't that the name of the inspector? Like the main detective?
[00:49:12] Speaker B: Maybe. I don't know.
[00:49:13] Speaker A: Lestrade and Sherlock Holmes. I think so.
And then the other guy, I've never. James will be. I don't.
[00:49:19] Speaker B: I don't know who he is. Yeah, I haven't started reading the novel yet, but I. I really liked both the novel and the film of A Room With a View. So I'm really interested to check this one out.
[00:49:29] Speaker A: Should be you you'll have to compare it to. Because you've now read A Room with a View and Remains of the Day. So you have to compare it and see if it really is lacking. Is as literarily bereft as critics thought at the time. I realized upon doing research today, I meant to mention this earlier that I've actually read an E.M. forster movie or book. And it was one of my favorite novels I read in high school. We read A Passage to India.
[00:49:51] Speaker B: Really?
[00:49:51] Speaker A: And I loved it. I remember thinking it was fascinating.
[00:49:54] Speaker B: That's one that I feel like I need to revisit.
[00:49:58] Speaker A: There's a movie?
[00:49:59] Speaker B: Yeah, there is. Because I read it in college and I did not like it. But I think the reason I didn't like it was because I didn't like the class.
[00:50:05] Speaker A: Oh, okay.
[00:50:06] Speaker B: The teacher was awful.
[00:50:07] Speaker A: I had. It was one of those things where I was like, oh, Pastor's India. That sounds familiar. And then I started reading the Wikipedia article and like, all the character names. I was like, oh, my God. I remember all these characters. And I like, vaguely remembered the plot and it's fascinating. And I remember really, like I said, I remember being one of those novels I read in high school where, like, it was real hit or miss, whether I was like into the stuff we read in classes in high school. But I remember finding that one really interesting.
Yeah, and there's. It's got. The movie's got Obi Wan Kenobi in it. Alex. Alec Guinness is one of the main characters.
[00:50:37] Speaker B: So we could do that at some point. We also still have Howards End. We could do at some point. I also want to make sure real quick that you remember that Remains of the Day is not an E.M. forster novel.
[00:50:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Did I say it was?
[00:50:51] Speaker B: It sounded like you thought it was because you said both of them in the same breath. So I just wanted to clarify that.
[00:50:58] Speaker A: Okay.
I don't remember what I said.
I don't think. I didn't mean to imply that if I did, but I think I was. Yeah. Anyways. But yeah, no, I. So, yeah, I'm excited to check it out, but that's what we're doing. In one week's time, come back to hear us talk about Morris. Until that time, guys, gals, non binary.
[00:51:18] Speaker B: Pals and everybody else keep reading books, watching movies and keep being awesome.
