She's the Man (Twelfth Night)

[00:00:04] Speaker A: This Film Is lit, the podcast where we finally settle the score on one simple Is the book really better than the movie? I'm Brian and I have a film degree, so I watch the movie but don't read the book. [00:00:15] Speaker B: And I'm Katie, I have an English degree, so I do things the right way and read the book before we watch the movie. [00:00:22] Speaker A: So prepare to be wowed by our expertise and charm as we dissect all of your favorite film adaptations and decide if the silver screen or the written word did it better. So turn it up, settle in, and get ready for spoilers because this film is lit. I can do this. I am a dude. I am a hunky dude. I'm a badass hunky dude. It's she's the man and this film is Lit. Hello and welcome back to this Film Is lit, the podcast where we talk about movies that are based on books and in this instance, movies that are based on plays. We have every one of our segments, including a double an Old school Let Me Sum up where we both summarize the movie and the source material because these are so different that it felt necessary. So we're gonna get right into it. If you have not read or watched she's the Man Twelfth Night, here is a brief summary and let me sum up. Let me explain. No, there is too much Let me. [00:01:37] Speaker B: Sum up Twelfth Night by William Shakespeare Summary Sourced from Wikipedia Viola is shipwrecked on the coast of Illyria and comes ashore with a captain's help. She has lost contact with her twin brother Sebastian, who she believes has drowned, and with the aid of the captain, she disguises herself as a young man named Cesario and enters the service of Duke Orsino. Orsino has convinced himself he is in love with Olivia, who is mourning her brother's recent death. Olivia refuses to see entertainments, be in the company of men, or accept love or marriage proposals from anyone, including Orsino, until seven years has passed. Orsino then uses Cesario as an intermediary to profess his passionate love for Olivia, but Olivia falls in love with Cesario, setting her at odds with her professed duty. Meanwhile, Viola has fallen in love with Orsino, creating a love triangle. Viola loves Orsino, Orsino loves Olivia, and Olivia loves Viola, disguised as Cesario. In a comic subplot, several characters conspire to make Olivia's pompous steward, Malvolio, believe she has fallen for him. The this involves Olivia's riotous uncle, Ser Toby Belch. Another would be Suitor, the silly squire, Ser Andrew Aguecheek, Olivia's servants Maria and Fabian, and Olivia's witty fool Feste. Sir Toby and Sir Andrew engage themselves in drinking and revelry, disrupting the peace of Olivia's household until late in the night, prompting Malvolio to chastise them. Maria suggests taking revenge on Malvolio by convincing them that Olivia is secretly in love with him. She forges a love letter mimicking Olivia's handwriting and plants it in the garden. The letter asks Malvolio to wear yellow stockings, cross gartered, a color and fashion that Olivia hates, to be rude to the rest of the servants and to smile constantly in Olivia's presence. Watched by Sir Toby, Sir Andrew and Fabian, Malvolio finds the letter and is surprised and delighted. He starts following the letter's instructions to show Olivia his feelings. Olivia is shocked by the changes in him and agreeing that he seems mad, leaves him to be cared for by his tormentors. Pretending that Malvolio is insane, the tormentors lock him in a dark chamber. Feste visits Malvolio to mock Malvolio's professed insanity, both as himself and disguised as a priest. Meanwhile, Viola's twin Sebastian has been rescued by Antonio, a sea captain who previously fought Orsino, yet who accompanies Sebastian to Illyria despite the danger because of his admiration for Sebastian. With their love for practical jokes, Sir Toby and Fabian convince Sir Andrew to challenge Cesario to a duel. Knowing that neither of them can fight, their initial duel is interrupted by Antonio, who believes Cesario to be Sebastian. Orsino's officers then arrest Antonio. Emboldened by this, Sir Andrew mistakes Sebastian for Cesario and slaps him, prompting Sebastian to beat up Sir Andrew. Olivia witnesses the skirmish and chastises Sir Toby, Sir Andrew and Fabian. Taking Sebastian for Cesario, Olivia asks him to marry her and they are secretly married in a church. Finally, when Cesario and Sebastian appear in the presence of both Olivia and Orsino, there is more wonder and confusion at their physical similarity. At this point, Viola reveals her identity and is reunited with her brother. Sebastian and Viola reunite and the cases of mistaken identity are resolved. Orsino and Viola marry and Antonio is released. Fabian confesses the plot against Malvolio and reveals that Sir Toby has married Maria. Malvolio swears revenge on his tormentors and stalks off, but Orsino sends Fabian to placate him. The plays end with a song sung by Feste. [00:05:33] Speaker A: All right, and here is a brief summary of the film. She's the Man Sourced from Wikipedia. Viola Hastings is a teenager who plays for the girls soccer team at Cornwall Prep and hopes to join the North Carolina Tar Heels when the team is cut. She and her teammates attempt to join the boys team but are rejected by the coach. Her boyfriend Justin, sides with the coach, leading to their breakup. Meanwhile, Viola's twin brother Sebastian is scheduled to transfer to Elyria Prep after being expelled for skipping classes. Instead, he secretly leaves for London with his band. Viola decides to take his place at Elyria and join the boys soccer team in disguise, intending to prove her ability and challenge the decision to cancel the girls team. With assistance from her friend Paul, she transforms her appearance and enrolls as Sebastian at Illyria. Viola shares a room with Duke Orsino, the soccer team's captain. She fails to impress the coach during tryouts and is placed on second string. Initially considered socially awkward, Viola gains acceptance after Paul stages an appearance with several girls at a pizzeria. Viola is assigned Olivia Lennox as a lab partner, which frustrates Duke, who has feelings for Olivia. Viola offers to help Duke attract Olivia if he if he agrees to train her in soccer. Her performance improves and she is promoted to first string. At a school carnival, Viola and Duke interact at a kissing booth. Duke later expresses to Sebastian in scare quotes that he is developing feelings for Viola. Olivia, meanwhile, becomes interested in Sebastian and asks Duke out in an attempt to provoke jealousy. Viola misinterprets the situation, believing that Duke has lost interest in her, but later encourages Olivia to speak to Sebastian directly. Sebastian returns from London earlier than expected and arrives at Illyria. Olivia confesses her feelings and kisses him, which Duke witnesses, leading to a confrontation between Duke, who he believes is his Duke and who he believes is his roommate. Viola oversleeps and misses the first half of an important soccer match, during which Sebastian plays in her place and struggles. At halftime. Viola explains the situation to her brother and they switch places. During the second half, Duke refuses to cooperate on the field. Viola responds by revealing her identity to the team and coach. She plays the remainder of the match and scores the decisive goal. After the game, the school learns the full details of the impersonation. Duke later reconciles with Viola. Sebastian and Olivia begin a relationship, and Viola's parents, who had been unaware of the deception, agree to improve communication. Viola and Duke attend the debutante ball together and she joins the Illyria boys soccer team. Alright, those are summaries of both Twelfth Night and She's the Man. I have some questions. Let's get into. Oh, no, guess who this week. But I do have some questions, so we'll get into those. And was that in the book? [00:08:07] Speaker B: Gaston, May I have my book, please? [00:08:09] Speaker A: How can you read this? There's no pictures. [00:08:12] Speaker B: Well, some people use their imagination. [00:08:14] Speaker A: So I'll preface all this by saying my questions are intentionally very vague. And maybe not vague, but I tried to ask things that were more broad. Broad. Because I had a feeling that any sort of specifics would be a fool's errand trying to ask if it was in it. Because I knew these were very, very different in broad strokes. So tried to keep my questions pretty broad in their formation. And the first one is that the big setup for the movie is that Viola wants to join the boys team at Cornwall because the girls team is being canceled because there wasn't enough girls that signed up for the team, essentially. And I wanted to know. And this is what instigates the gender swap. She decides I want to play for the boys team. The boys team at Cornwall won't let her play. Then this whole situation falls into her lap with her brothers transferring to Illyria. But he's going to run off to London. And I thought it was forever. I didn't realize at the beginning that it was for two weeks. Did they ever say that? I guess they do. They must. [00:09:15] Speaker B: I think he does say at the beginning that he'll be back in two weeks. [00:09:19] Speaker A: I. I didn't know there was a time. An ending. Time limit on it. I thought he was just doing it for like. However, until he decided not to. I don't know. Anyways, so. So she is going to take his place. And I wanted to know if there was an equivalent, like, scenario or thing that instigates the gender swap. In the movie's case, it is wanting to join the boys soccer team because there is no girls soccer team. Is there anything like that from the play that feels like the instigation? [00:09:45] Speaker B: I wouldn't say there's anything similar to what happens in the movie. There is a reason that Viola disguises herself as a man, so I assumed there was a. Yeah. And so in the play is from a different country. I think the place that she comes from is called Messaline. But she is shipwrecked on the coast of Illyria. [00:10:09] Speaker A: Okay. [00:10:09] Speaker B: And then decides to disguise herself as a young man who she names. She names herself Cesario. [00:10:17] Speaker A: Okay. So she doesn't pretend to be her twin brother. [00:10:19] Speaker B: No. [00:10:19] Speaker A: Interesting. But she has a twin brother. [00:10:21] Speaker B: Yes. [00:10:22] Speaker A: Okay. [00:10:23] Speaker B: And there's not an explicit reason given for this decision, like, within the text of the play. But I do think we're meant to assume, at least at some level, that she would be doing this for safety, given that she's a woman by herself in a foreign country. [00:10:39] Speaker A: Right. Easier to blend in and not, you know, not be. Fall victim to violence from the men around her. Presumably. That was the goal. Yeah. Another element of the film that I wanted to know if it came from the book and I would be interested to see because the scenarios are so different, is that we find out that in the movie. Viola. Violet Viola. [00:11:02] Speaker B: I've been saying Viola, I think Viola. [00:11:07] Speaker A: Viola. I don't know. One of the things we see in the film is that Viola's mom is like a very traditional Southern lady. Her family's very wealthy, for one thing. But she's also like her mom is a very traditional Southern lady who wants her to wear pretty dresses and go to debutante balls and all this sort of thing and kind of follow in her footsteps. And I wanted to know if there was any sort of parent or relation that is trying to enforce particularly strict gender roles onto Viola. Keep wanting to call her Violet Viola that she is sort of rebelling against by. It's not even like a. I wouldn't say it's like a conscious rebellion, but it is within the. [00:11:47] Speaker B: Clearly something that she does not identify with or have any interest in. [00:11:51] Speaker A: And. Yes, and then we explore that through the extremity, having her swap. Gender swap, essentially. And I wanted to know if that was an element of the book at all, of somebody else, like, kind of trying to push more traditional gender roles onto her. [00:12:06] Speaker B: No, I would say no. That's not an element that's present in the play at all. [00:12:11] Speaker A: Yeah, it makes sense again, based on the plot summary of her being completely seemingly removed from anybody she knows. [00:12:18] Speaker B: Yeah, there's really nobody, like, until Sebastian shows back up. There's nobody around who would recognize her or know or, like, have an inkling that she's not who she says she is. [00:12:30] Speaker A: Yeah, that's fair. I thought that was a fine wrinkle. It kind of makes sense to, like, have that be, you know, have that play. Have the Viola playing against her mother's very traditional. [00:12:41] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. [00:12:42] Speaker A: Desire for gender roles. And she does not fall into that. So the tampon thing. There's a scene early in this movie where Viola, when she moves into Illyria Prep. Cause it's like a boarding school, basically. And so she moves in and she's rooming with these other. With Channing Tatum, but there's some other guys in the room. And when she first gets there, she knocks over, like, her bag and a box of tampons falls out. And they see it and they're all like, what the. Why do you have a box of tampons? And I wanted to know if there was a similar scene where Viola has some sort of traditionally feminine female signifier. Whatever. Obviously in this instance, it wouldn't be tampons from this time period, but that something like that that is discovered by the other, by the people, the men that she is trying to, you know, like, blend in. Blend in with. And if she has to, like, come up with an excuse for it. Because in this instance, she comes up with the excuse, which I think is the whole reason we're doing this movie. Because it's a reference to a thing from. I realized I forgot about this, where we talked about whether or not you would use sanitary pads to stop bleeding. Somebody, I think the person who requested this movie said, I know about this because of. And she's the man. She talks about using them to stop nosebleeds, which is what. What Viola does to kind of like explain why she has tampons. [00:14:03] Speaker B: So I think the closest thing to this from the play is that there's a moment where some of the male characters comment on Cesario having a feminine sounding voice. [00:14:16] Speaker A: Okay. [00:14:17] Speaker B: Now, Viola does initially say when she's talking in her first scene about how she's going to disguise herself. She does say that she's going to disguise herself as a eunuch, although I don't think that's ever mentioned again. Not even when she's, like, trying to dissuade Olivia. So I don't know if that's something that just, like, doesn't come back or what. But as. As in regards to her having like a feminine sounding voice, this also kind of is like, brought up once and then dropped. There's not like a moment where she has to make an excuse for that. [00:14:52] Speaker A: Yeah, okay. So not really there. And there's not a thing where she has like, again, some. I don't even know what it would be at the time, but, you know. Yeah. And I guess being a shipwreck, like, has basically nothing, I assume, other than the clothes on her or whatever. But. Yeah. So as she settles into Illyria, she kind of starts mingling with the students there. And one of the students she meets and ends up being made lab partners with is a student named Olivia. And we find out that Duke, who is Viola's roommate, has a crush on Olivia and is like. But too nervous to talk to her. But Olivia gets paired up as a lab partner with Viola slash Sebastian. And as they're working together, Olivia very quickly falls for Viola as Sebastian. And the reason for that in the movie is basically presented as that Viola or Sebastian in this instance, because Viola is pretending to be Sebastian, she has a lot more of. She's able to be a lot more vulnerable. She doesn't fall into a lot of traditional masculine archetypes, especially for high school boys at the time of, you know, not being connected to her emotions or being unfeeling or blah, blah, all these other things, the things about Viola slash Sebastian that Olivia falls for are things that are not traditionally considered masculine. And I wanted to know if that was an element of the play where Olivia or an equivalent character falls for Viola, but specifically as Sebastian because she's, quote, unquote, not like other guys. He's not like other guys. [00:16:30] Speaker B: So you may have kind of guessed this from my previous answer, but the plot point of Olivia falling in love with Viola, Sebastian slash Cesario is directly from the play. And I would say. I think. I would argue that that element of Cesario being not like other guys is also present in the play because Olivia does talk about him having, like, a sweet face and, like, a sweet voice and things like that that would maybe not have been associated with the other men present. [00:17:07] Speaker A: But is there anything directly related to, like, the. His, you know, Cesario, Sebastian's personality and, like, that being something that feels different? Because that is very specifically in the movie. She does. I think they're even a line about, like, the sweet face or. I don't know, something. She has a line. Olivia does have a line about how her face is. Something about it. I don't remember the exact wording, but implying that it's different in a way or whatever. But is there anything in the book that you think that is more related to her personality being not traditionally masculine and that being a thing that Olivia is attracted to? [00:17:47] Speaker B: I don't know. It's hard to say for a couple reasons. One being that Shakespeare really employs this kind of insta love throughout this play where the characters just, like, immediately fall for each other and it's not really explained, per se, like, why they're falling for each other. Because at the end of the day, it is just a plot device. [00:18:16] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:17] Speaker B: Also, the language. [00:18:19] Speaker A: Right. Makes it a little difficult to parse. [00:18:21] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm not a Shakespeare scholar. I feel like I did pretty good with this one. I didn't feel like I struggled a whole lot. But I'm not an expert on early Modern English, and I'M also not an expert on gender roles at this time and in Elizabethan society. So while I can guess that Olivia's interest is at least partially based on Cesario not being like the other men that are around, I don't know if it specifically has to do with the personality aspect in the same way that we see in the movie. [00:19:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. We move forward quite a bit and. Well, I don't know how far forward we move, but there's a big scene later and again, I don't have a ton of very small questions because I knew it was just gonna be a mess to try to get into, like, any sort of details. It would just be you going no over and over again. So, like I said, I tried to stick to really broad stuff. So the next question I have is, is there a moment in the play where Cesario, Viola, is required to be at an event that other people will be there as and has to appear both as Viola and as Sebastian Cesario? Because in the movie there's a big scene where they go to this carnival and a bunch of different people are all gonna be there and they're all expecting both Viola and Sebastian to be there. And so we get the classic. Like the final scene of Mrs. Doubtfire, the classic. [00:19:55] Speaker B: Doing quick changes. [00:19:56] Speaker A: Doing quick changes in the bathroom over and over again and switching back and forth to keep up appearances. And I wanted to know. Cause that is obviously a very. Like I said, we saw it in Mrs. Doubtfire and stuff. And I'm wondering if that was inspired by something from the play or if that's a more modern creation. [00:20:11] Speaker B: This is not from the play. I do think it's a fun idea, though. [00:20:15] Speaker A: Of course. You got. I mean, you got to do that. [00:20:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:18] Speaker A: If you're going to do the. Like you're playing two people at the same time, like. Or playing two different. You know, you're playing two different versions of a person at the same time. [00:20:27] Speaker B: And it's a comedy classic. [00:20:29] Speaker A: There's no better hijinks than a situation where they have to switch back and forth constantly. On a similar note, I wanted to know if the super mixed up, crazy love square, I guess, is the. I don't even know the word for it. [00:20:46] Speaker B: I think I called it a love quadrangle. [00:20:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I was gonna go with quadrangle. I wrote that actually. And then I went, that's a square. So. [00:20:53] Speaker B: But quadrangle is so much more fun to say. [00:20:56] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think a. Yeah, that's a rhombus, I think is the word for it. Love Rhombus. Which is also fun to say. Anyways, so in the movie, Olivia asks out Duke eventually to make Sebastian jealous because Olivia likes Sebastian and Viola likes Duke. And Duke kind of likes Viola, but also likes Olivia and doesn't know exactly who he likes. He initially likes Olivia, but then likes Viola. Starts falling for Viola, but then when Olivia acts cast Duke out to make Sebastian jealous, he agrees to that, which then makes Viola jealous. And Olivia eventually, ultimately falls for Sebastian. Viola as Sebastian. And then the real Sebastian. Does that. That whole nonsense mess come from. [00:21:46] Speaker B: A lot of this is from the play. Yes. So what happens in the play is that the Duke is super into Olivia. She doesn't want anything to do with him. So he sends Cesario, who is Sebastian in the movie, who is Sebastian in the movie, Essentially Viola as Cesario slash Sebastian to see Olivia to kind of, like, plead his case. And then Olivia falls for Cesario. Meanwhile, Viola has already fallen in love with Duke Orsino. [00:22:28] Speaker A: And has Duke met Viola? [00:22:31] Speaker B: No. So that's where we. [00:22:32] Speaker A: So she's fallen in love with Duke as Sebastian or as Cesario? Like, from interacting with him as Sebastian? [00:22:38] Speaker B: Yes, from interacting with him as Cesario. So we lose. We lose the part where Duke interacts with Viola as Viola. [00:22:46] Speaker A: Yeah, the kissing booth. [00:22:47] Speaker B: Like, the kissing booth scene. And we also lose Olivia asking out Duke to try to make Sebastian jealous. [00:22:56] Speaker A: Okay, that makes sense. [00:22:58] Speaker B: Yeah. So most of it, the movie is able, I think, to add a little bit more, like, confusion and layering in there, because with the way that the movie is set up, Viola is able to also appear as Viola. [00:23:13] Speaker A: Right. [00:23:13] Speaker B: And not just as her male alter ego. [00:23:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Which I guess she could feasibly do that in the book. Right. Or in the play. [00:23:23] Speaker B: I mean, I guess she could. I don't. Yeah. I don't know. [00:23:26] Speaker A: I guess nobody knows who it is. [00:23:27] Speaker B: There would be no reason. [00:23:28] Speaker A: There'd be no reason to. Because she's only ever been Cesario at this. Yeah. So I though one of my. I wanted to know. We get to the end of the movie and we get to the big. There's a big final soccer match where they've been talking about the whole time, which is that Cornwall, which is the school that Viola used to go to or still goes to, kind of goes to. I don't even know when we get to the end. I'm not even sure. [00:23:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know. [00:23:52] Speaker A: She went to Cornwall, but then when they got rid of the girls soccer team and then wouldn't let her try out for the boy soccer team, she goes to Elyria. But the first soccer match of the year is a big rivalry game between Illyria and Cornwall. And this is the stage for our big climax where everything kind of comes to a head. And I wanted to know if there was a similar big event. Like, obviously not a soccer match, but, you know, like a ball or. I don't know, something where all of this kind of comes out and it's like this big thing. And I wanted to know if that was inspired by the play. [00:24:26] Speaker B: I would have to say no would be my assessment, because there's no big event at the end of the play. Okay, so the last act of the play, Act 5, is one single scene. And basically, it's this very long scene where characters are rapidly exiting and entering the stage. And it's basically just mistaken identity hijinks, right? [00:24:55] Speaker A: Of, like, somebody walks out and you think it's this person, and then this other person thinks it's that person. [00:24:59] Speaker B: And, like, different combinations of people interacting until at the very end, everybody ends up in the same place at the same time out on the stage. And we. It becomes clear, like, what is going on? [00:25:13] Speaker A: Like, where are they? Like, what are they doing in that moment? Like. Like, are they just. You know what I mean? Like, at a party? Or. Like, what is the. What is happening that gets them all together? [00:25:23] Speaker B: See what the set of scene five is, which. They're probably not a set because there's very rarely, like, set in. There's very little. Here's the thing about early modern theater. There's very little stage direction, generally. There's very little, like, setting of the scene. Ye. Generally. Let's see. They're at Olivia's estate. [00:25:50] Speaker A: Okay. [00:25:51] Speaker B: And that's all we know. [00:25:52] Speaker A: All right, so it could be a party. Could be. Whatever. [00:25:55] Speaker B: Well, there's no mention of a party, so it's not a party. [00:25:57] Speaker A: Probably not a party. [00:25:58] Speaker B: They're just there. [00:25:59] Speaker A: All right, fair enough. That's fine. So there's not a big event, but it is. They do all end up together at the end. [00:26:05] Speaker B: Yes. [00:26:06] Speaker A: Fair enough. So then we get the reveal that. To everybody that Viola was pretending to be Sebastian this whole time. And it all kind of, like I said, it all kind of comes out. And in the movie, we get the big reveal. But then ultimately, they decide to let Viola play the second half of the soccer match because. [00:26:30] Speaker B: Reasons, yes. [00:26:32] Speaker A: They're like, sure, whatever. Because it's a movie and who cares? And, like, literally, Vinnie Jones just rips up the rule book. Cause he's like, screw this. Who care cares? We Don't. [00:26:40] Speaker B: Even though he seemed pretty misogynistic, like, two minutes earlier, he did. [00:26:45] Speaker A: And then all of a sudden. [00:26:46] Speaker B: And then all of a sudden he's like, no, we don't. [00:26:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Which I think is the joke, maybe, where he's like, constantly, like, you're all playing the girls. You look like little girls. And then he's like, we don't discriminate. Again, like, I think that's the joke, I guess. Anyways, is there anything equivalent where it's. It all gets revealed, but then, like, it all kind of works out? I don't even know. These questions are dumb. I'm not. I'm having a hard. I had a hard time, like, coming up with questions for this because it just made it. I felt different. [00:27:15] Speaker B: I mean, honestly, that last question you asked is kind of just sums up how Shakespearean comedies end. Everything gets revealed and it all ends up. Well. [00:27:25] Speaker A: Fair enough. Yeah. [00:27:26] Speaker B: So Viola does reveal herself to be a woman at the end. There's not, like, this triumphant moment where she still gets to play in the soccer game, so to speak. [00:27:38] Speaker A: I wasn't. I don't know. I was like, if. Maybe there's some. I couldn't even imagine what it would be. But some thing that was happening. [00:27:45] Speaker B: She does get what she wants. Because after she reveals herself to be a woman, the Duke is like, okay, let's get married. [00:27:52] Speaker A: Oh, well, there you go. Yeah, I guess, in that regard. So it ends fairly similarly where Duke and Viola get together and then Sebastian and Olivia get together. [00:28:05] Speaker B: Yes. [00:28:06] Speaker A: And then my last question, the Tony and you, Toby and Eunice subplot, which I thought was the best part of the movie. I wanted to know if that was based on anything from the. From the play. Are those characters in it. [00:28:21] Speaker B: Actually kind of. Yes, yes and no. So the only female character in the play other than Olivia and Viola is Olivia's lady in waiting, whose name is Maria. And she, throughout the play has, like, a sort of flirtation with this other character named Sir Toby. And then at the end, it's revealed that they got married. [00:28:48] Speaker A: Okay. So I guess that's what they're doing. Yeah. [00:28:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:51] Speaker A: Because for people who don't. Didn't watch the movie or whatever, there's this kind of running gag where one of Duke's friends, Toby, is. We find out eventually, which we'll talk about in a little bit, is into Eunice, who's, like the very nerdy, like, girl at the school who's, like. She has a lot of. [00:29:09] Speaker B: She's like a nerdy stereotype. [00:29:11] Speaker A: Yeah, she's a very, very early mid-2000s nerdy stereotype. Like, she has, like the. [00:29:15] Speaker B: The braces, headgear and, like, glasses and, like, talks with a list and hyper. [00:29:20] Speaker A: Fixates on everything and. Yeah. But at the end they end up together, which I thought was fun. And so, yeah, I was like, I wonder maybe that. That wouldn't actually have that didn't surprise me that much to know that. I was like, I bet maybe these other minor characters are based on. [00:29:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Once I started really digging in and thinking about it, I think there's a lot more references to the play throughout the movie. [00:29:44] Speaker A: Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. [00:29:45] Speaker B: Than it seems like there are at first glance. They are both very, very different. [00:29:50] Speaker A: Yes. [00:29:50] Speaker B: But I think there are more. [00:29:52] Speaker A: There's a lot of references. [00:29:52] Speaker B: There's a lot more references and kind of winks and nods than maybe you would think. [00:29:57] Speaker A: Yeah, it sure seems like it. I think that. Yeah, it sure seems like that's the case. All right. Like I said, I didn't have that many questions because I just knew it was going to be difficult to ask that many questions. But I do have one more that I want to ask for. Lost in Adaptation. [00:30:10] Speaker B: Just show me the way to get out of here and I'll be on my way. [00:30:15] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [00:30:16] Speaker B: And I want to get unlocked as soon as possible. [00:30:19] Speaker A: So the movie just doesn't. And I was. I wrote this at the beginning of the movie, wondering if I would have to delete it eventually if they ever did come back to this, and they never do. So I was like, okay. The movie just doesn't explain how Viola plans to explain her ab. Since from Cornwall. [00:30:33] Speaker B: Yeah, she just, like, is not going to go to school for two weeks. [00:30:36] Speaker A: Doesn't go to school. [00:30:37] Speaker B: And apparently they don't know, say anything. [00:30:40] Speaker A: Or do anything about it. And I didn't know if there was any equivalent in the book, and I know the answer to this now, but I just thought I'd mention it anyways. [00:30:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, the movie really just like hand waves, that one. The movie is really just like. You don't see this. [00:30:53] Speaker A: Yeah. You don't think about it. [00:30:57] Speaker B: In the play, I mentioned she was shipwrecked, so I would just be presumed dead, I think. And we do. When Sebastian shows up, we find out that he assumes that she drowned. So I don't think it's a stretch to say that everybody back home would just assume the same. [00:31:14] Speaker A: That's basically what I figured was the case. [00:31:17] Speaker B: No indication that she faked her death in the movie, though. [00:31:20] Speaker A: And it doesn't really matter in the movie. I was just asking for curiosity's sake. Again, this movie plays. The whole premise of the movie hangs on the fact that none of these people are able to recognize the difference. Including, like, people that know Sebastian at times that this is not Sebastian. And, like, not even that. It's not like that. It's a. That it's Amanda Bynes pretending to be this guy, but just that, like, there's moments, there's. I'm trying to think of some specific characters, but. Well, Monique, I guess, doesn't really see her. [00:31:54] Speaker B: Yeah, well, they did. They do that whole thing in the restaurant scene. [00:31:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:58] Speaker B: Where they're like, oh, don't let her get too close because she'll recognize you. She'll know you're not Sebastian. It's still pretty silly. [00:32:05] Speaker A: Pretty silly and, like, very clear. Like, from. Even from a distance, you'd be like, that's clearly not my boy at the carnival. That was a big one. Because she sees Monique sees Sebastian, quote, unquote, Sebastian sees Viola as Sebastian from, like, 20ft away. [00:32:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:19] Speaker A: And then Sebastian runs off. [00:32:21] Speaker B: Right. [00:32:22] Speaker A: But you're like, you would know that that is not your boyfriend if you were. [00:32:26] Speaker B: One would hope. Maybe we're just supposed to assume she's, like, that bad of a girlfriend. She doesn't even recognize her own boyfriend. [00:32:33] Speaker A: But my point was that, like, the whole movie is hung on this ridiculous premise. So you kind of just have to be like, sure, okay, like, fine. Like, and just not. And just kind of go for the ride of, like, not worrying about those kind of little plot. [00:32:45] Speaker B: But I do think, like, to kind of defend your question, they're so kind of not meticulous, but they kind of go to great lengths to explain all of the other aspects of how she's able to pull this off. [00:33:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:01] Speaker B: With, like, oh, well, Sebastian's gonna leave, so I'm gonna go to the school here and blah, blah, blah, blah. But they just, like, don't explain this part of it. [00:33:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And they, like, go through the whole thing where she lies to both parents, telling the other one that she's, oh. [00:33:13] Speaker B: I'm going to be at Dad's. I'm going to be at Mom. [00:33:16] Speaker A: Like, yeah. The details of, like, how she goes through with this at the school and stuff. And then. Yeah. It's just like, we're just not going. [00:33:23] Speaker B: To talk about the fact that the school would absolutely call her mother and be like, hey, your daughter hasn't been to class for two weeks. [00:33:30] Speaker A: Yeah. What's going on? Yeah, I don't know. I just thought that was very funny. All right, those are all of my questions, but we have a lot more to talk about, starting with what Katie thought was better in the book. You like to read? [00:33:45] Speaker B: Oh, yes, I love to read. [00:33:47] Speaker A: What do you like to read? [00:33:51] Speaker B: Everything. Okay, so I want to preface all of my sections by saying that I was never in a million years going to attempt to compare details here. So while there are some, like, specific things that I'm going to talk about that I liked in the play or that I liked in the movie, this is not going to be like a one to one comparison. It's impossible. [00:34:16] Speaker A: In the same way, my questions, I. Yeah, I was like, I'm just going to ask real broad questions. Yeah. [00:34:22] Speaker B: Now, that being said, I do want to shout out a specific line from Olivia in the play that I really liked. So she is. She's in mourning. Okay. So she's not accepting suitors. But the Duke, like, will not take no for an answer. [00:34:38] Speaker A: In mourning because of, like, a previous. [00:34:40] Speaker B: Her brother died. [00:34:41] Speaker A: Oh, her brother. [00:34:41] Speaker B: Okay, so he has been, like, hounding her, basically. Also, side note, I don't understand why Viola falls in love with the Duke in this play. He seems, like, not a great guy, whatever, but. [00:34:56] Speaker A: So not a great guy by your standards today. [00:34:59] Speaker B: We also don't interact with him a ton, to be fair. But. So they're like, she's at her. Her estate and one of the. The servants or whatever comes in and is like, oh, there's a visitor here from you. And she's like, oh, my God. And then says, if it be a suit from the count, I am sick or not at home. And I was like, you know what? Relatable. [00:35:26] Speaker A: Yeah. What does that mean, a suit from the count? [00:35:28] Speaker B: If he's coming here to try to court me. [00:35:31] Speaker A: Like a suitor? [00:35:32] Speaker B: Yeah, like a suitor. If it be a suit from the count. [00:35:35] Speaker A: Okay. [00:35:36] Speaker B: If it's the count, I'm not here or I'm in bed. [00:35:40] Speaker A: Oh. A suit is like the verb. Not verb, but the noun. The noun of. Well, a different version of noun of suitor. It's the non subject noun of suitor. Right? Yeah. It's a thing. A suitor. Does they suit? [00:35:54] Speaker B: Yes. Or they extend a suit to you. [00:35:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Gotcha. [00:36:01] Speaker B: And also I wanted to shout out that one particular line because it tickled me so much because it felt so modern and relatable. [00:36:09] Speaker A: Yes. [00:36:10] Speaker B: If I tried to sit here and tell you every line that I loved from this play, we would be here all day. Because I really liked a lot of them. But I do want to give a. [00:36:18] Speaker A: Shout out, famously, Shakespeare. Pretty good writer, famously. [00:36:21] Speaker B: I do want to give a shout out to the language of the play in general. It's Shakespeare, so it should go without saying. But the word play is pretty layered and pretty rich. It's good stuff. Okay, so there's a character in the play named Malvolio. And this guy is. He's kind of a drag. He's kind of a stick in the mud. He's like, a big stickler for the rules. A fun sucker. Doesn't want anybody else to be having a good time. And I felt like as I was watching the movie that the direct correlation was Malcolm. [00:37:01] Speaker A: That's my understanding. [00:37:02] Speaker B: According to Wikipedia, Malcolm is the character Festy the Fool, which doesn't fit his characterization at all. But he does introduce himself as Malcolm Festy at one point. [00:37:15] Speaker A: I think he's a combined combination. [00:37:18] Speaker B: I think he's supposed to be, but he's. [00:37:20] Speaker A: Because that's why he has Malvolio as a pet spider. Yes. [00:37:23] Speaker B: He's definitely just Malvolio. He's not like Festy the Fool at all. [00:37:27] Speaker A: Okay. [00:37:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Except for the last name. So, anyway, all this to say the kind of B plot of this play. And I say kind of because I think Shakespeare was actually more interested in this, like, B plot than he was in the actual A plot. Okay. That's my opinion. But the B plot, the comedic subplot of this play is that a bunch of the other characters prank Malvolio by writing a fake letter from Olivia to make Malvolio think that she's fallen in love with him. And I was a little surprised that the movie didn't utilize anything at all from that because it feels to me like really good teen romantic comedy fodder. [00:38:15] Speaker A: Definitely. I wonder if it's just a matter of, like, time. Literally, the movie's already, like, an hour 40 just to get the main plot in there. [00:38:25] Speaker B: Well. And the movie was far more interested in the main. Main plot. [00:38:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:28] Speaker B: Than the play was. Well. [00:38:30] Speaker A: And they already have to fly through the main plot to get it. I mean, like, the end, the opening is like. I was so amazed at how quickly we get into things where it's like, movie opens, soccer team's gone. It's like, everything just happens in a matter of, like, seconds. And I'm like, okay, they're just. We gotta cruise through everything here. So I imagine they're. I wouldn't be surprised if a version of the script had that in there. And I just. [00:38:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at that either, but I did want to mention it. [00:38:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Also, I'll talk more about it later, but I have a feeling that this script had a lot of meddling. [00:39:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it might have been. [00:39:05] Speaker A: This script does not feel like on the level of other movies we have done by Kirsten Smith. [00:39:12] Speaker B: I agree. Yeah. It's nowhere near on the same level as like legally blonde or 10 things I hate about you. [00:39:20] Speaker A: Not even close. [00:39:21] Speaker B: Not even. [00:39:22] Speaker A: And I don't know if that. Like I said, I don't know if it's just really good writers can have write bad things sometimes. But like. And also, I wonder if, like, maybe there was some, like, either studio meddling or. Or just the director took things in different directions. I will say a lot of my biggest problems with the movie, which we'll get to feel like they are more directorial issues. Maybe. Maybe we'll get to some of it. Not elements of it, not all of it. Because it's just not nearly as smart of a movie as things like Legally Blonde. Like, not even close. [00:39:52] Speaker B: I think it has moments. [00:39:54] Speaker A: It has moments, but. And that to me, feel like the moments where I'm like, okay, that feels like something from like a version of this script that. Yeah, like Kirsten Smith and branding partner's name. I can only remember her name because she follows her podcast, but McCullough, right? [00:40:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, Karen McCullough. [00:40:12] Speaker A: Karen McCullough. Yeah. I feel like there's those moments felt the most like, okay, that's parts of that, like, got of their script that. [00:40:21] Speaker B: That I do think sometimes it felt like they brought somebody in to like, yeah, punch it up and like, add some jokes. Yeah, yeah. [00:40:31] Speaker A: Or my other thought is because I think Amanda Bynes might have had a little bit of a. I think there might be a lot of improving in this movie, especially by Amanda Bynes and stuff that I think may have been part of why it doesn't feel as smart and tight and well written. That's just a guess. I don't actually know that, but. [00:40:57] Speaker B: Okay, so back to better in the book. So I shared this out on our Instagram story over the weekend as I was reading this, but there's a great line where Toby simps for Maria by asking her to step on him. [00:41:14] Speaker A: See, I. I didn't even know that was the actual context too. I thought you were literally just posting the line, like, oh, look. No, like, because the line out of context. [00:41:22] Speaker B: The context. Amazing, because she comes up with the whole plan to prank Malvolio Right. And everybody else is, like, really impressed by it. And they're, like, super into the fact that she planned this whole thing. And Toby says, wilt thou set thy foot on my neck? And I just really love. [00:41:42] Speaker A: It's the think that means what it. You're implying there or. Because to me, it almost sounds like that, based on the context, that he could be, like, asking her if he would be her next target of, like, you know, like, so she. She comes up with this elaborate prank or, you know, this. This kind of mean prank to prank Malvolio. And is this Toby saying to her, will thou set thy foot on my neck? Like, am I will what if you. Will you do this to me? You know what I mean? I don't know. [00:42:15] Speaker B: Okay. [00:42:15] Speaker A: I'm just wondering. [00:42:16] Speaker B: So here's first off, I do think it is meant to be what I said. [00:42:24] Speaker A: Okay. [00:42:25] Speaker B: I do believe that. I do. And I may, in fact, die on that hill. That may be a hill. I'm with. [00:42:32] Speaker A: I was just asking. I was legitimately asking. [00:42:33] Speaker B: However, I will say that one of the kind of fun things about this era of theater and the lack of any kind of stage direction within the text of the play is that if you were a director and you wanted him to deliver the line like that, you could do that. [00:42:54] Speaker A: Right? [00:42:55] Speaker B: Yeah. However, I do think I'm correct. [00:42:58] Speaker A: Okay. [00:43:00] Speaker B: And it's kind of like the same reason that I loved the other line from Olivia is that I just. I just love finding, like, weird little things that are in common with people who were alive over 400 years ago. I love that. And, you know, maybe the joke wouldn't have landed in 2006. [00:43:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Step on me, Mommy wasn't really like. [00:43:21] Speaker B: No. Or maybe it was too risque for a teen movie, but if I were directing a modern version of Twelfth Night, it would definitely include a Step on me, Mommy. [00:43:33] Speaker A: Yes. No. 100%. And like I said. Yeah. I think. I just think that in 2006, that wasn't. [00:43:40] Speaker B: No. I don't know. [00:43:41] Speaker A: I don't think, like, in remotely the same way. [00:43:44] Speaker B: Obviously, the concept existed. [00:43:46] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, it was. It just didn't have the same sort of cultural power that it does now. I don't know if people would even. Even get, like, why it was funny in 2006. Maybe. I don't know. [00:43:57] Speaker B: My last note here is actually something that I really disliked about the movie. [00:44:04] Speaker A: Okay. [00:44:05] Speaker B: So I know that it's like, his character, which appears to basically be his Arrested Development character, but the way that the principal decides to handle every character. [00:44:17] Speaker A: David Cross plays that I've seen at. [00:44:18] Speaker B: Least, like, the way that he decides to handle Viola being disguised as Sebastian is crazy. That is crazy work. Forcibly revealing her during a soccer game in front of a packed stadium and inviting her parents to, like, witness it. Yeah, I. Yeah, that was really. That's insane. And it was really hard to read that as comedy in 2025. [00:44:44] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. That is. Because I will say that was one thing where this is a good point to any talk about it. I didn't really have much to, you know, obviously a big element of this is. Is she is cross dressing. [00:44:55] Speaker B: She is. [00:44:56] Speaker A: Well, gender swap. I don't know. It's. It's. She's cross dressing, essentially. And so, like. And it's sports related, so there's obviously like a minefield worth of, like, yes. Topics here related to, like, trans people and trans people in sports and all this sort of thing. Like. And. And obviously the movie is not about that at all. [00:45:15] Speaker B: No. [00:45:15] Speaker A: Even a little bit, really. And I think that's why we don't really have any notes about it. I didn't really have any notes about it. [00:45:21] Speaker B: I don't really have any notes because. [00:45:22] Speaker A: There'S not even anything particularly, like, transphobic. [00:45:25] Speaker B: No, there's really not. There's not even really all that much that's like homophobic in it. [00:45:31] Speaker A: There's a little bit of moments here and there where, like, you know, here and there. But it's even not that bad. [00:45:36] Speaker B: No, it's really not. Like, it could have been way worse. [00:45:41] Speaker A: But I wouldn't have expected that from. Again from Legally Blonde and. [00:45:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:46] Speaker A: Kirsten Smith and McCullough. They even at the time were fairly progressive people. And I, I wasn't expecting that going in. But even still, just the time period and everything, you never know. And it really wasn't as. There really was very little in the way of. Yeah, like homophobia or transphobia or at least explicit. I think there's a lot of inherent transphobia to the premise, to some extent. Yeah, but it's like there's a lot of inherent transphobia and like, with the. And there's a lot of inherent trans. Transphobia with like the ending of, like, well, oh, Sebastian reveals that he has a dick. Well, then he must be a man. Clearly, you know, like. But. But within that context it is because he's saying, I'm a man. And you know, it's. It's complicated, but there's a lot of, like, messy gender stuff all mixed up in it. But there's not a lot of, like, explicit trans or any really, like, transphobia, which it was nice to see. And why. I think we ended up not really having much in the way of notes about that sort of thing other than this. This point, which is where it gets the. The closest to that is this big ending scene where they come out and, like, are showing genitals on the field to, like, confirm what gender they are. And stuff like that gets a little, like, it's, you know, not the best handling of all of that. And. And like you said in particular. But again, it kind of ties into, like, just the broader ridiculousness of the movie. [00:47:12] Speaker B: No, I agree. You know, like, everything is ridiculous. Heightened aspects of it, like, they don't not fit in the film. But, like, watching it, I was like, yeah, yeah. [00:47:26] Speaker A: All right, let's go ahead and find out what Katie thought was better in the movie. My life has taught me one lesson, Hugo, and not the one I thought it would. Happy endings only happen in the movies. [00:47:39] Speaker B: We kind of mentioned this already, but I thought having Viola disguise herself specifically as her brother was an interesting wrinkle because, like I mentioned, that's not what she does in the play. Right. She invents this completely new alter ego, Cesario. [00:47:55] Speaker A: Right. [00:47:56] Speaker B: But I. I thought having her, like, kind of essentially be, like, cosplaying her own brother was an interesting wrinkle to the. [00:48:05] Speaker A: It makes perfect sense when the setup is she has a twin brother. [00:48:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:09] Speaker A: And we're not doing a shipwrecked in a foreign land. Like, you know, like, she's. [00:48:13] Speaker B: Yeah. She's going in amongst people who might know him. [00:48:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Or. Or not even know him. But she's using his identity in order to get into this school, so she has to be him. And then on top of that, it just provides more layers for, like, hijinks because we get, like, the whole thing. [00:48:33] Speaker B: Of, like, we get, like, the ex girlfriend and, like, there's extra layers of. [00:48:37] Speaker A: Nonsense to it that. [00:48:39] Speaker B: Yeah. So many extra layers of nonsense. In this case, identity theft was, in fact, a joke. [00:48:45] Speaker A: Yes. [00:48:48] Speaker B: I really do like the line. Bros, brothers, brethren. That was the only thing I remembered from having seen this movie previously. [00:48:58] Speaker A: Yeah, it was good. [00:48:59] Speaker B: I do like that line. When Olivia and Viola Sebastian become lab partners, there's that little moment where she sees the song lyrics that Sebastian writes. [00:49:13] Speaker A: Yes. [00:49:14] Speaker B: And I liked having actual Sebastian's song lyrics be, I guess, a part of what makes Olivia fall for Sebastian. They didn't really pay off. Like, I don't think it ever comes. [00:49:29] Speaker A: I don't know if we ever really Hear them. She reads a couple of words here and there, but, like. [00:49:33] Speaker B: But I like the idea of, like, okay, maybe there could be something there between them. [00:49:40] Speaker A: Right. [00:49:40] Speaker B: It makes them getting together at the end feel a little less out of nowhere. [00:49:46] Speaker A: Sure, I guess I'll date your brother. I don't know. Yeah, Yeah. [00:49:50] Speaker B: I also liked having Duke and Viola strike a deal to help each other, thus forcing them to spend time together. That's very in line with teen romantic comedy genre. [00:50:03] Speaker A: It's the classic. [00:50:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:50:05] Speaker A: The two that are going to end up together have to work together. [00:50:08] Speaker B: They have to work together for different reasons, but then they fall in love. Yeah, exactly. Although I will say I do kind of take umbrage with the fact that the whole point was for her to prove that she was good enough to play on the boys team, but then she's not, and she has to get help from one of the boys to become that good. I feel like we're undercutting a little bit there. [00:50:34] Speaker A: Soccer. Well, we'll get to that. I have more notes about this in Odds and Ends, but the soccer in this movie is a mess. And that would be one of the things that I think is. Which is funny because Vinnie Jones, the guy who plays the coach. Professional footballer for years. [00:50:47] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah. I. I feel like he had very. [00:50:50] Speaker A: Little watching it input, probably in terms of the scripting phase and that sort of thing. [00:50:56] Speaker B: We had written the same line down. [00:50:58] Speaker A: Yes. [00:50:59] Speaker B: Here. [00:50:59] Speaker A: Because this was the one line when. In it. When it happened in the movie. It was the. I don't know if it's the only time we both laughed out loud, but it was definitely the line where we laughed. For me, both of us burst out laughing at this line. And this is in relation to. We mentioned earlier, Toby and Eunice. There is a. It's so funny. This morning I went looking to try to find this again because I wanted to watch the scene again. It's, like, not anywhere. Like, there's no clips of it on the Internet. [00:51:23] Speaker B: I underappreciated, I guess. [00:51:25] Speaker A: Super underappreciated because I found the, like, a. The only thing I could find, like, I put the whole line or something similar into, like, YouTube with, like, she's the man at the end. And the only result that was even remotely related was a best funny moments from she's the Man. And that's. This wasn't even in there. Oh, yeah. Literally wasn't even in the montage. So I was like, oh, well, all right. It's the funniest moment in the movie. But Toby is one of Duke's friends. And I mentioned he. [00:51:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Earlier he had expressed interest in Eunice. [00:51:56] Speaker A: Yes. [00:51:56] Speaker B: And his friends were like, she's a nerd. [00:51:59] Speaker A: Like, she's dumb or whatever. And then later on, I don't remember the context, but Sebastian. [00:52:04] Speaker B: Sebastian. Viola, as Sebastian, is out on a date with Eunice, like, kind of accidentally. [00:52:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:11] Speaker B: And. [00:52:12] Speaker A: Oh, that's right. They're doing the double date. [00:52:13] Speaker B: Yeah, they're doing the double date where Duke is out with Olivia. And then Toby and the other guy. [00:52:19] Speaker A: Whose name I don't remember, are, like, sitting at the. Another table in the restaurant. [00:52:24] Speaker B: Yeah. And the other guy is like, man, maybe Eunice is hot or something like that. [00:52:30] Speaker A: And Toby's reaction is. He's so, so exasperated. He goes, how come when I wanted to ask Eunice out, everyone made fun of me? But then Sebastian likes her and suddenly she's cool. Screw you guys. I hate high school. And it was the way it's delivered. [00:52:47] Speaker B: The way it's delivered is great. It's. It's. I hate high school at the end that sold it for me. [00:52:51] Speaker A: Such a great self. Like, such a great line written for adults, like, remembering high school. Because it's so true of that kind. [00:53:01] Speaker B: Of bullshit where, like, it's very capricious. Like, everything can change on a dime. [00:53:07] Speaker A: Oh. Oh, yeah. Last. A month ago, Eunice was. Everybody thought she was a giant nerd, but then, you know, some. You know, it's just. It's such a good line, and it's delivered so great. [00:53:18] Speaker B: I kind of enjoyed the implication that Viola was, like, unaware that Olivia liked Sebastian in Scare quotes. I thought that was interesting because in the play, Viola, like, immediately clocks that Olivia is into her alter ego. Like, after their first interaction, she has kind of a monologue by herself on stage, and she's immediately like, oh, no. I think she's fallen in love with me. In love with Cesario. But I kind of like the idea that Viola in the movie doesn't realize this because she's kind of styled herself as an expert on relationships and, like, wooing women, so to speak. [00:54:04] Speaker A: Right. Like, that is part of her character. [00:54:06] Speaker B: Yeah, that's part of her Sebastian character. Is that, like, she's great with women and she knows what women are thinking, but clearly she doesn't. [00:54:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:54:18] Speaker B: So my last note here is kind of an overarching thought, and it's that, ironically, the movie is arguably doing more with the main premise of the story, which is Viola being disguised as a man and the ensuing, like, love quadrangle messiness. So she's the man. Really shows us how the relationship between the characters develop. While Twelfth Night does not care about that at all. Like, could not care less about how these characters fall in love with each other. Like, when we catch up with Viola after her very first scene that. Where she decides to disguise herself the next time we see her, she has already been living as a man for a while, has gotten into the Duke's inner circle, and has fallen in love with him. All of that happens, like, off stage. [00:55:18] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [00:55:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Twelfth Night is kind of way more interested in. First of all, it's B plot. [00:55:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:27] Speaker B: We spend way more time on that than we do on the A plot. And it's also way more interested in kind of the ensuing hijinks of, like, mistaken identity. [00:55:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:38] Speaker B: Than it is in exploring, like, the relationships or, like, dynamics or the dynamics of why. [00:55:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, you said what I asked earlier of, like, why is Duke falling for Sebastian? Or not Sebastian for. Or, sorry, not Duke. Why is Olivia falling for Sebastian, played by Viola or whatever and that sort of thing. [00:56:03] Speaker B: We don't know. Because the play does not care. [00:56:06] Speaker A: Right. [00:56:07] Speaker B: Really genuinely cares more about those hijinks than setting up how that love triangle came to be in the first place. Literally, at the end. Like, at the end of the movie, we understand why Duke decides to go ahead and be with Viola. Right, Right. We get that by the end of the movie. [00:56:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:33] Speaker B: At the end of the play, Viola reveals herself to be a woman, and Duke Orsino is like, oh, well, I guess let's get married then. Because that's how Shakespearean comedies end. [00:56:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:49] Speaker B: Everybody gets married, obviously. [00:56:51] Speaker A: Okay. I thought I knew I wasn't crazy. I was like, why do I know that from something? So just I knew, like, a love quadrangle was ringing a bell in my head. It's a song from the Math of love. Quadrangles is a song from the final season, I think the final season of Crazy Ex Girlfriend. Anyways, I was like, why is that? Why does that sound so familiar to me? All right, that's going to do it for everything Katie thought was better in the movie. Let's find out what the movie nailed. As I expected. [00:57:24] Speaker B: Practically perfect in every way. Okay, so another little disclaimer here at the top. This is less of the movie. Nailed it. And more like, here are some things that I think the movie is referencing from the play Shakespeare in General. [00:57:41] Speaker A: Gotcha. [00:57:43] Speaker B: So the movie starts out on the beach. I think that could be a nod to Viola being shipwrecked at the beginning of the play. Because she's like, on the shore when the play starts. [00:57:56] Speaker A: Yeah, that could be. I felt like it was maybe a weird. Not weird. I kind of was like, are they trying to do, like, a. Get boys interested by having a bunch of girls play soccer on the beach for maybe the opening of the movie? Maybe in swimsuits? You know what I mean? I was like, are we, like, trying to, like, hook, make sure that boys will stick around to watch this movie? I don't know. I was just like, what are. But that. That could. That's actually an interesting idea. [00:58:23] Speaker B: Could be. [00:58:23] Speaker A: I also think it could be a reference to, like, Top Gun or whatever a little bit. Because playing. They're playing volleyball on the beach. But, like, the. [00:58:30] Speaker B: Okay, like. [00:58:31] Speaker A: Like, playing a sport on the beach is like a very, like, classic, like. [00:58:34] Speaker B: No, I agree. That is a very classic movie thing and a classic kind of teen movie thing in general. It could also be a nod to, like, like, 50s and 60s, like, teen movies. The tarantula, as we said, is named Malvolio. The restaurant that they eat at is called Cesario's. [00:58:53] Speaker A: I did not realize that's right. No, I do remember them saying that. Yeah. [00:58:57] Speaker B: The carnival setting is not from this play, but I do think it feels very Shakespearean or maybe like Elizabethan. The idea of, like, this crazy carnival going on. In the background. There is a scene where Olivia encounters the real. The real Sebastian Slash, but thinks it's Cesario, right? Because of the twin thing. And just, like, runs up to him and, like, throws herself at him and is like, let's get married. And he's like, okay, all right. [00:59:35] Speaker A: Who might have questioned a good thing. [00:59:37] Speaker B: That is basically his whole vibe. He's like, who am I to say? No? Speaking of which, Sebastian just fully going along with the soccer match at the end, I do think is kind of like, at the end of the play when one of the characters challenges him, thinking he's Cesario, challenges him to a duel over Olivia. And Sebastian, despite having absolutely no idea what's going on, is just like, bet, let's fucking go. [01:00:12] Speaker A: I thought that was very funny. I was like, does Sebastian even play soccer? [01:00:16] Speaker B: Clearly not. [01:00:17] Speaker A: Clearly. Well, yeah. I don't even know if they've set up that he had played soccer at all. And, yeah, he appears to not be any good at it. So he clearly wasn't a good soccer player. If he played at all. It's like, sure, I guess I'm playing soccer. [01:00:32] Speaker B: This movie does manage to kind of ham fist in probably the most well known line from the play. [01:00:40] Speaker A: And it works. It's not like, the worst. [01:00:43] Speaker B: It's not amazing, but it's not the worst. Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and others have greatness thrust upon them. [01:00:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:52] Speaker B: And we kind of talked about every. We kind of talked about this already, but everybody gets together at the end, just like in a Shakespeare comedy, and they do the whole debutante ball thing at the end of the movie, and all the girls are, like, in white dresses, which does feel like a reference to how Shakespeare comedies end with multiple weddings. [01:01:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:14] Speaker B: Everybody gets married. [01:01:15] Speaker A: Everybody gets married. There you go. We got quite a few odds and ends to get to before the final verdict. Speaking of the opening credits, these are some of the most mid 2000s opening credits that I've seen in a while. They are just, like, screaming, it's 2005. And this is a. This is a movie made for young people. It's just like, all right. [01:01:48] Speaker B: Speaking of the mid-2000s, did you notice that in the scene where Amanda Bynes is, like, out in the street trying to, like, mimic guys as they're walking around, that she's wearing a Livestrong bracelet? [01:02:00] Speaker A: No. Oh, my gosh. [01:02:02] Speaker B: I was like, oh, my God, not to live. Strong bracelet. [01:02:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:06] Speaker B: What an era. [01:02:07] Speaker A: Yeah. So I kind of alluded to it throughout, but I. I did not enjoy watching this movie for the most part. It had its moments. Yeah, for sure. [01:02:17] Speaker B: It was. It was kind of grating. [01:02:19] Speaker A: It was just. I just wasn't very good. Especially because I'm going in hoping it's going to be another one of those, like, you know, Legally Blonde or something that. Not that people knew Legally Bond was a good movie at the time, but where it was, you know, maybe like a little bit of an underappreciated, like, hey. Because. Because the writers I know have. Can write really good stuff. Like, maybe. Maybe this movie will have been, like, miss, you know, Although Ebert gave it three stars, but. Which is wild to me. And so I will say this. I'm not convinced this is Amanda Bynes fault. It very well could be the director as much as anything, I would argue. But the awkward, like, trying to fit in with the guys bits throughout, like, the whole first two thirds of the movie, roughly, are too cringe to be funny to me. Like, it was too awkward and grating. I can't. I can't handle the voice that she's doing. [01:03:14] Speaker B: I really didn't like her dude voice. [01:03:17] Speaker A: I can't do. I couldn't. It just. Every interaction where she's doing the dude voice Thing is, so. I don't even know how to describe it. I just hated it. [01:03:29] Speaker B: And I know that it's, like, part of the joke and part of the comedy, that she's not any good at it. Any good at it. Yeah, I understand that, and I get that. But most of the time, for me, it was, like, so over the top. [01:03:47] Speaker A: Yes. [01:03:48] Speaker B: That I was like. Like, it took me out of it. I was like, I don't. How would anyone buy it? [01:03:53] Speaker A: There are moments where she kind of just drops into her normal voice. [01:03:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:58] Speaker A: That I was like, oh, my God, I wish the whole movie had just been that. [01:04:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:02] Speaker A: And people still don't realize. Like, people still don't. Like, there's moments where she's talking to Duke where she kind of drops into, like, more of her normal pattern of speaking a little bit. And I was like, that would be so much more believable. And I think you could. You could spike it with a few moments, like, the bro brothers, brethren part and stuff, and still have those kind of jokes of her. Awkward. But it was just so much all the time of, like, the awkward, like, saying goofy and, like. And, like, everything is. And. And to the point where. And the movie recognizes it because Duke even makes fun of it at times. Like, how weird she is as Sebastian and the way she talks. And, like, there's a moment in the bathroom where she's like, all right, bro. Gotta, like. She does, like, her whole thing while she's leaving, and she's like, catch you on the flip, homes, or what? You know, like, that whole she. It's also a little weird where it's like, a lot of her, like, guy speak is, like, ebonicsy. Kind of, like, feels kind of awkward. I don't know. But it's like. But there's a scene where, like, she's leaving the bathroom and she does all that, and he's like. He just kind of, like, rolls his eyes and goes, all right, bro. Like, he, like, kind of, like, lampshades that. The fact that the way she talks is so ridiculous. And so, like, even the characters in the movie think the way she's talking is absurd. And I just. I don't know. It just. I couldn't take it. I hated it. I hated every moment of it. [01:05:32] Speaker B: I wish they had just, like, after that, maybe after that opening scene in the dorm room, if it had leveled out a little more, I think it would have been fine. [01:05:44] Speaker A: If the first scene, you want to lean into it for comedy and because she's trying to figure out how to do this. [01:05:51] Speaker B: Yeah. She's fish out of water. That one scene would be fine. But it's really the whole way, the whole way through. [01:05:58] Speaker A: And it's just every time I'm just like, I need, need you to stop. And it's just. And again, the movie, the whole premise of the movie, you're like, none of this is believable. But the, the, the, the manner in which she speaks is so clearly a person doing a bit the whole time. [01:06:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:14] Speaker A: That you're like, nobody would ever buy that. This is a person acting like a. It's just, it's. I don't know. And especially one that like Duke, who seems like a pretty normal guy would like. [01:06:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:28] Speaker A: He seemed friends with and like, like, it's just. I don't know, it. I, I found the whole thing just obnoxious. That whole part specifically, like, I just wish there would have been a different version of her playing Sebastian and because I think she's very good as Viola in the movie and there are times as Sebastian that I think she does really well. But a lot of it is just, it's just, it's. I can't do it. It's too cringe. I mentioned earlier that the soccer in this movie is also a mess, but it was very funny to me that when Duke agrees to start training her, she'll help him get a date with Olivia or whatever. The first thing they cut to them training is him showing her how to do bicycle kicks. Which I was like, ah, yes, A very important thing to practice a lot. [01:07:20] Speaker B: They are high schoolers. [01:07:22] Speaker A: That's true. He is a high schooler. And so maybe he thinks this is a cool thing. [01:07:25] Speaker B: You need to practice. He wants to show off the tricks he knows. [01:07:29] Speaker A: Right. I guess that's fair. And they do later practice more normal stuff. But I just thought it was very funny that the first thing they do. And a lot of that's just for like, obviously people who know nothing about soccer. It's an impressive looking thing that he can be like, here, look at him teach this impressive thing. But it's so funny to me. [01:07:47] Speaker B: I also think it's wild that the movie expects me to swallow that she wears a wig for the entire time while she's like playing soccer. [01:07:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:07:59] Speaker B: That's crazy. [01:08:00] Speaker A: Apparently it's a very. It holds on well even though she can kind of just move it off when she's on the phone in that one scene. [01:08:05] Speaker B: But like, yeah, apparently it's a really good wig. [01:08:09] Speaker A: The. We mentioned the kissing booth scene earlier, but I this happened. And I was like. That scene occurred. And I was like, were people really still doing kissing booths in 2007? Because that shit is so antiquated and. [01:08:21] Speaker B: And gross. [01:08:22] Speaker A: Yeah, it's wild. [01:08:24] Speaker B: I don't know. I. I have never encountered a kiss. [01:08:27] Speaker A: Never seen one in the wild. Only in movies. [01:08:30] Speaker B: Literally only, like, to the point that I'm like, I, like, question, like, did. [01:08:33] Speaker A: They ever actually, like, how prominent were these? Or were they a thing that, like, you know, happened a couple times in the 40s or whatever? And then, like, we just put them in movies and they just kept showing up. [01:08:44] Speaker B: They just stayed in movies forever. There is fossilized in time. [01:08:48] Speaker A: There is a really good joke in that scene. At least I assume it's an intentional joke, because it sure seems like it is. Is. I don't remember who says this. [01:08:59] Speaker B: I think it's Duke saying it because he's talking about how he's finally going to get to kiss Olivia. [01:09:04] Speaker A: That's what it is. He's waiting in line to get to kiss Olivia because Olivia is, like, working the kissing booth or whatever. But there's this guy in front of Duke in line who is kissing Olivia. And, yeah, Duke is talking to himself about how great it is that he finally gets to kiss Olivia. And while he's saying this, he's talking about it. He's like, life is good. Life is fair. Life is just. And while he's saying that, we're not watching him, the camera is focused on Olivia, who is being kissed by this guy who paid to kiss her for far longer than she would like to be kissed by him. And I think it is very intentional. [01:09:44] Speaker B: No, I think that is an intentional. [01:09:46] Speaker A: That the camera is on her dealing with this. [01:09:49] Speaker B: Absolutely. [01:09:49] Speaker A: While Duke is like, life is good. Life is fair. Which I thought was funny and felt like the kind of very pointed satire and progressive kind of commentary that we would get from something like legally blonde or 10 things I hate about you. And it felt very much like those are. That was another one of those moments where I was like, okay, I can actually. [01:10:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I can see the writing team in that moment. [01:10:11] Speaker A: In that moment. Yeah. I thought it was very funny that before the final soccer match, the entire soccer team puts on full faces of face paint, which is not a thing I think I've ever seen a soccer team do. And I was like, what is. This is crazy. But I think it literally might be a thing they did just to add believability to the idea that the soccer teammates don't realize that Simon isn't Or not Simon Sebastian. [01:10:39] Speaker B: Isn't Viola's version Sebastian disguising his face a little bit. So I guess it's more. [01:10:46] Speaker A: More believable that they don't realize. [01:10:48] Speaker B: Don't look all that much. [01:10:49] Speaker A: They really like. They look like they found an actor who look a fair amount like Amanda. [01:10:54] Speaker B: Similar. [01:10:55] Speaker A: Similar enough, but not enough that any person would be like they're the same. [01:10:58] Speaker B: Not enough that any person with like without halfway decent vision. [01:11:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Or without face blindness or something. Yeah. Maybe Illyria is a school for people with face blindness and it's just the unstated premise of the film. But yeah, I was like, that's the only thing I could think is that the face paint. Well, and then. And I think there was some other elements to it that must have been cut in the edit because I don't know if you noticed that this. But when. In the second half when Viola comes out as. [01:11:27] Speaker B: As Sebastian. [01:11:28] Speaker A: No, not as Sebastian, but as her. Yes, sorry. As Sebastian to play in the game. She has remnants of face. [01:11:35] Speaker B: She does. [01:11:36] Speaker A: So she put on face paint and. [01:11:38] Speaker B: Then took it off, kind of rubbed it off so it would match his. [01:11:41] Speaker A: Yeah, but we don't ever see that. [01:11:42] Speaker B: And it's never commented on later on, like when the big reveal happens, she's not at fa. No face paint. [01:11:48] Speaker A: And so I was like, there was something there somewhere that got cut or I don't know, something. Yeah. [01:11:53] Speaker B: Or they initially decided to do face paint and then they were like, no, never mind, cuz we need to have this. [01:11:59] Speaker A: But if they were going to do that, they would have cleaned it off better. Like if. If the idea like on set was like, oh, we want to do face paint. Oh, we decided not to. [01:12:06] Speaker B: My point was that maybe that initial scene where she is wearing the face paint was from a different day or day or something. [01:12:15] Speaker A: Yeah, that would make sense. [01:12:16] Speaker B: And then it ended up in the movie and nobody noticed or. [01:12:19] Speaker A: Or they noticed and just said, ah, who cares? Yeah, that's. That. That could make sense too. [01:12:24] Speaker B: The coach for the Illyrian team, you said his name earlier. [01:12:30] Speaker A: Vinnie Jones. [01:12:31] Speaker B: I was looking him up. He's the juggernaut. Yes, yes. [01:12:36] Speaker A: From. Yeah, yeah, yeah. From the. The Bryan Singer X Men movies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:12:42] Speaker B: Yes. [01:12:42] Speaker A: He's been in lots of stuff. He's also made a lot of appearance in Good, Better, Bad, Bad. Earl. I say a lot. He's been in a handful of Good, Better, Bad Bad movies because in his later career he started doing a bunch of garbage. But yeah, also professional soccer player for like a long Time played in the Premier League. And like a good professional soccer player, which I thought was interesting. I had no idea about that before watching this movie. Another soccer thing at the end, we get to the big climax at the very, very end, where she needs to score the goal to win the game or whatever. [01:13:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:11] Speaker A: And they make it a penalty kick, which I thought was really dumb, because if you know anything about soccer, penalty kicks get made. Like, most of the time. Like, penalty kicks in soccer, the goals. The goal shooter scores most of the time. [01:13:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:29] Speaker A: It's actually very rare for now. I don't know. In high. High school, it may be. I don't know what the stats are there. Like, sure, it's probably a little more because. Because the shooters aren't as, like, consistent. So I'm sure they miss more often than. Than, like, professionals do. But, like, in professional soccer, the person shooting the PK scores at least 9 out of 10 times or something. Like, it's some absurd amount, like a. So I thought it was really weird to make it a pk because I'm like, okay, well, she's gonna score. And that also doesn't really, like, kind of to your point earlier, where she, like, needs to have, like, this guy teach her how to be a better soccer player. A girl scoring a PK against a guy is, like, a lot less impressive or, like, I don't know if it'd say it's less impressive, but it's like, it's not as much of a show of skill as anything else would be. Then they kind of change that because then he saves the pk and I'm. [01:14:23] Speaker B: Like, okay, the ball, like, bounces, and then it deflects. [01:14:27] Speaker A: He saves it, and then it deflects over to. To do to Duke, who then heads it back to Viola, and then she, like, jumps and kicks it into the net. So it ends up being a more impressive goal than if she had just scored on the pk. But it also adds this weird layer of, like, well, but she wasn't even able to score on the PK initially. Like, I don't know. It just. There's a whole. If you know anything about soccer, it's kind of a weird way to do it, in my opinion. They should have just made it a set piece where. Set piece is a thing where she should have just got filed further away from the goal. Because the way a PK works and the way why she got a PK there is. She was inside the goal box when she got fouled, which results in a pk. If they Just had her further away, outside the goal box. She gets fouled. It's a set piece. You get to kick the ball from there. You can score from there, but it's a lot harder. And if you have it from there and then she has to score from, like, a big distance or they come up with some clever play, or she know has some. I don't know. Like, they could have had her practicing the set piece or something with the. I don't know. I think there's a million other ways they do it. I just wasn't a big fan of, like, giving her a peek at. [01:15:29] Speaker B: I'm just getting into soccer stuff. But I do think that. I do think that scene. Even. I don't know all that much about soccer, but I did think that the way that it was, like, choreographed was very strange. I think they definitely could have done something better. I'm sure that they were not anticipating that a ton of huge soccer fans were gonna watch this. [01:15:50] Speaker A: I'm sure they were like, who cares? And, like, whatever. And it's not even like it's wrong or anything. Like, again, she. She gets tackled in the box, It's a penalty in a way. So she gets a pk, and you can kick a pk. The goalie can deflect it. One of your teammates can kick it to you, and you get like. Like, everything that happens is, like, legal and allowed. It's not, like, wrong necessarily. I just don't think it's the best way to do that ending. But also, who cares? Like, that's not the point, like, really of the movie. Like, I'm sure they're like, who gives a shit? Like, whatever. And it. It works out fine. At least, like I said, she at least has to score a more exciting goal. And Duke gets involved, which is, you know, sure, whatever. Like, he gets the assists. So, like, okay, it's fine, because they're in love. The bigger thing that I thought was crazy is the final montage is, like, the final moment of the film is this very brief montage of her playing soccer on the Illyrian boys team. She's part of the team now. And it is the most clumsily shot and edited soccer montage I've ever seen in my life. There's one shot that I think is supposed to be them at a game where they're running in a V formation at the camera in a way that makes literally no sense. Sense if you know any single thing about soccer, because they're all, like, two inches from each. It's like, I Guess we're doing, like, the Mighty Ducks Flying V, which also makes no sense in Mighty Ducks, to be fair. But that at least makes a little more. Honestly, that makes a little more sense than this. And then also, there's just. It's really weirdly edited where we see him, like, pick her up from one angle, and it, like, repeats a couple times, and then it switches to a slightly different angle, and then it freeze frames with her whole. It's just so weirdly edited. Like, I'm like, I could re edit this soccer montage at the end of this in, like, 10 minutes and have a better version that. Yeah, I just thought it was so clumsily put together at the very end. I'm like, why was it edited that way anyway? It doesn't really matter. It's just. I thought it was bad. [01:17:46] Speaker B: My last note here, I just want to toot my own horn, really, because I was worried that I would struggle with reading this because it's. It's been like, 15 years since I had read any Shakespeare, but as I was reading it, I was like, I feel like I'm actually having a way easier time with this than I did previously when I was taking Shakespeare classes and all that to say, I think I learned more about how to read a text from doing this podcast than I did getting either of my degrees. And I do think that having that base of knowledge was definitely vital, but I also think that I am far better at critical analysis now than I was when I graduated with my master's in 2016. [01:18:35] Speaker A: That surprises me. Zero percent. I'm not even saying that as a slight on, like, the master's or anything. Obviously, I don't have a master's degree, but I. My degree, everything I learned about film, I have learned since I graduated. Yeah, that's not true. I don't want to undersell what I learned, but, like, the vast majority of what I've learned about film in general, I have learned since graduating. [01:18:57] Speaker B: Yeah, no, and I. And I want to say that, like, coming into doing this podcast with, like, the base knowledge of how to read and analyze the text, I don't think that I could have gotten to where I am now without having had that base knowledge 100%. But also doing this every week for the last. [01:19:20] Speaker A: Eight years. [01:19:21] Speaker B: Seven. [01:19:22] Speaker A: It's almost 10. [01:19:22] Speaker B: We're getting close. We're getting close. [01:19:24] Speaker A: Not there yet. I don't think. [01:19:25] Speaker B: Eight years. Yeah, Something like that, I think, really helped. [01:19:29] Speaker A: Yeah. No, for sure. Yeah. Like I said, same for me. Yeah, absolutely. For the final verdict, we wanted to remind you, you can head over to Facebook, Instagram, Threads, Goodreads, Blue sky, any of those places. Interact. We'd love to hear what you have to say about she's the Man, Twelfth Night. You can also do us a favor by heading over to Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Wherever you listen to our show, drop us a five star rating, write us a nice little review. We would appreciate that. That. And finally, if you want to support us, head over to patreon.com thisfilmislit Support us there for 2, 5 or 15 bucks a month. Get access to different things at different levels. At the $5 a month level, you get bonus content. We put out a bonus episode every month. We just. We haven't put it out yet. This month it will be a ghost story, but we haven't. [01:20:09] Speaker B: Yeah, we need to watch that. [01:20:10] Speaker A: Yeah, last month it was Nosferatu. Nosferatu, that's right, it was. I was trying to remember if that was still the vampire. Yeah, we did Nosferatu 2024 last month. Every month, new bonus episode. And then at the $15 level, you get access to priority recommendations where if there's a patron request or if there's something a movie book adaptation you would love for us to talk about, Support us for 15 bucks a month and you can request it. And this was a request from. [01:20:36] Speaker B: This was a request from Nathan. [01:20:38] Speaker A: There you go, Katie. It's time for the final verdict. [01:20:45] Speaker B: Sentence fast. Verdict after. That's stupid. It shouldn't surprise anyone to hear that this was a difficult comparison. Aside from the core premise and some character names, Twelfth Night and She's the man couldn't be more different on the surface, that is under the hood. There's something kind of interesting going on. Both of these pieces of media are, in my opinion, relying on their audience being genre savvy, utilizing character tropes and genre tropes to avoid spending a lot of time on things like character development, relationship development and plot nuances. For example, the play doesn't bother explaining who who Feste the Fool is or what his role is. He's the Fool. Any audience member at the time knows that and understands what his character is. Similarly, the movie doesn't bother explaining Viola's gay hairdresser friend. Anyone who's teen movie romantic comedy genre savvy knows who that character is and understands his role. So there's a lot that arguably goes under explained in both pieces of media. Now, if I'm being honest, I found the movie's script to be pretty unsubtle I thought everything was really dialed up and over the top in a way that was often grating. But I think you could probably say the same thing about the play. If we're being really, really honest here. All of that makes me think that this movie is more Shakespeare aware than I might have initially thought. Which brings me to the second thing that makes this comparison really difficult. A lot of the main criticisms that I have of the movie are also arguably criticisms you could level at the play. However, I think we have to take into account the history and evolution of storytelling over the last 500 odd years. Yes, both of these rely on genre savvy audience in order to under explain. And both rely on tropes and both are unsubtle and over the top in ways that can be a bit grating. But those things are far more egregious sins of a movie made in 2006 than they are of a piece of early modern theater. And it is precisely for that reason that I'm going to give this one to the play. [01:23:38] Speaker A: Katie, what's next? [01:23:40] Speaker B: Up next, we are doing something that I had never heard of. [01:23:45] Speaker A: Me neither. [01:23:46] Speaker B: This was a patron request. Talk more about that on the prequel episode because I don't remember off the top of my head who it's a request from. But we are going to be covering Maurice, which is a novel by E.M. forster. [01:24:00] Speaker A: Crazy old Maurice. [01:24:02] Speaker B: I guess we'll find out. I don't know anything about the Maurice of this novel. Forster, who did A Room with a View. [01:24:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:24:11] Speaker B: And it is a 1987 film. [01:24:13] Speaker A: Yeah. So the only thing I know, I looked it up today just to see like, because I was like, what is this? You said E.M. forster, room of the View. It's directed and written by James Ivory. [01:24:23] Speaker B: Who wrote and did Room of the. [01:24:25] Speaker A: View and A Day to Remember or Remains of the Day. So it's very. That kind of thing. It's very gay, by the way. [01:24:33] Speaker B: That's what I thought. [01:24:34] Speaker A: I believe in like a love. [01:24:37] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, E.M. forster was very gay. [01:24:40] Speaker A: So was James Ivory. So there you go. [01:24:43] Speaker B: So come back for some very gay things. [01:24:45] Speaker A: Yes. What a selling point. That's our podcast right there that's going to do it for this episode. Come back back in two weeks time to hear us talk more about Maurice. But in one week's time we'll be talking about everything you guys had to say about she's the Man, Twelfth Night, as well as previewing Maurice. Until that time, guys, gals, non binary pals and everybody else, keep reading books watching movies and keep being awesome.